Mainstream failure of SL & Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs

[Marigold Devin]

27 pages into this thread and I still am struggling to have anything to say. I feel I can't comment well because I haven't got around to watching the video where Maslow's thingy was mentioned. It stirred memories of a college course, which served only a purpose to help me decide what career path I did not want to be on. Life is full of ironies.

Second Life does not fulfil any of my basic needs, as per the bottom two tiers of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. It does not make me feel safe or feed or water me. It is pure luxury, and sometimes frustrating. Very few friendships have been meaningful or long-term, and that saddens me further. (It's not you, it's me. Tee hee.)

But it does look like some people in Second Life were able to more or less go straight to the top of the pyramid, finding creative satisfaction, so lucky them that their real life needs must all have been met and they have been afforded this privilege.  

Edited July 3, 2023 by Marigold Devin
really not surprised Oberwolf's eyes glazed over

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Yes, prior to "The Sodding", Coffee seemed to be a good sport. It's a shame more people didn't come into the thread who shared her views, so we could have a "healthier debate".

I'm certain that we used many odd synonym attacks, where et Riddikulus logic should have been more than enough to approve any given pint. Certainly, there was no calling to Descendo into Flippendo or Obliviate. 

There wasn't much point. A few of us did try early on but the majority of respondents were more interested in painting the topic into their particular corner. Easier to argue against one's own straw man then the argument actually presented perhaps.

[Marigold Devin]

8 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

From what I see in the online media, the Brits use the "C-word" more lately where perhaps they said "sod" before. True? False?

Or should I just stop being a stupid C-word?

 

This Brit certainly does. Probably because there seems to be more c*nts around these days. 

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Marigold Devin
.. and ... you're not stupid (or a c*nt), Love

[Fauve Aeon]

 

On 6/28/2023 at 7:28 PM, Coffee Pancake said:

Philips response boils down to 'without the bottom two needs, people are naturally altruistic and nice"

In the end, and looking back over the thread - to start with, I didn’t interpret this as his response. What  I heard was  ‘When we are freed from those needs in SL, we seek connection.’ And while people are free to disagree with that or my interpretation of what he said entirely too, I think that observation has value - the stakeholders and advisors have a vested interest in the leveraging the narrative of what they have learned over 20 years as they launch the mobile apps in what I hope is going to be quite a favorable time for them to be debuting. 

I should have addressed that directly as I feel like the ‘SL is a 3D Porn World’ and ‘everyone is here for sex’ are actually a separate topic that might have been better addressed or discussed in another thread, but also might have gotten many of the same responses given the tone - which to me grew hostile and dismissive of others’ opinions very quickly and people responded in kind. For me that’s where the original topic derailed. The opinion that LL should specifically acknowledge the adult community more or even advertise adult rated content more is probably something that could be more productively addressed with someone in marketing at the Lab instead of a discussion resident-to-resident here. There are probably several ways to better highlight more of the active adult community & content (and downplay the empty clubs full of bots), in the already available avenues - for instance in the destination guide adult category entries, via radio PSA’s on the various adult inworld radio stations and via event partnerships with other adult-themed enterprises in-world, working with the events and shops that serve their community.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Fauve Aeon

[Silent Mistwalker]

8 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

what sort of society and culture have we built for ourselves, and how can it be nurtured in ways that make it better, more effective, and more inclusive?

The one we currently have is crap to understate it (RL and SL). It needs to be scrapped but you'll never get European descendants to change.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Fauve Aeon said:

On 6/28/2023 at 8:28 PM, Coffee Pancake said:

Philips response boils down to 'without the bottom two needs, people are naturally altruistic and nice"

In the end, and looking back over the thread - to start with, I didn’t interpret this as his response. What  I heard was  ‘When we are freed from those needs in SL, we seek connection.’ And while people are free to disagree with that or my interpretation of what he said entirely too, I think that observation has value - the stakeholders and advisors have a vested interest in the leveraging the narrative of what they have learned over 20 years as they launch the mobile apps in what I hope is going to be quite a favorable time for them to be debuting. 

==============

Quoting the transcript:

it more I'm looking forward to that okay so my next question is kind of long but I really liked this question it's from
1:00:42
one of our community members and it's a little bit philosophical so and take a deep breath and here we go so when you
1:00:48
look at Second Life you see a community that is constantly seeking to do good with charitable fundraisers awareness
1:00:55
campaigns and helping each other in moments of personal crisis so considering Maslow's hierarchy of
1:01:02
needs and that an Avatar's physiological and safety needs are met when they first
1:01:08
res and how this Baseline of security frees them to focus on the needs for love and
1:01:14
esteem and self-actualization this is not like in real life or in most games
1:01:19
which requires some sort of struggle to survive and thrive what do you think Second Life says about human nature
1:01:28
epic one Philip you want to go first yeah I first of all whoever said that if
1:01:34
they're out there well said yes um I think it's wonderful and I hadn't I
1:01:40
hadn't thought about that philosophical question specifically with this idea of
1:01:46
eliminating Maslow's you know low two needs basically or which whichever way you want to flip the pyramid but uh I do
1:01:54
think it's a lovely point that you know restating it that we because we do not
1:01:59
need to uh worry about our physical safety or the need to eat you know
1:02:06
um like we do when we're playing The Sims haha but you know because we don't worry about those things when we come into second life
1:02:12
we are freed to exhibit greater action
1:02:18
in other layers of that hierarchy so going back that I think what that says
1:02:24
about human nature what Second Life says about human nature is it it reinforces
1:02:31
how social and collaborative and
1:02:37
uh how supportive of each other it is in
1:02:43
our nature to be that is to say right uh as soon as we are freed from those base needs we immediately want to connect
1:02:50
with others everybody knows and there's many people in the room you know listening to this that the most introverted
1:02:57
uh you know you know the the the person who is farthest over on the side of wanting
1:03:04
to be alone and wanting to read a book you know will tell you that the magic of
1:03:10
second life was that they made a friend right and I think that that is what
1:03:16
Second Life shows us it shows us that if we remove these basic problems you know
1:03:21
from uh from ourselves what we all do is seek to connect with each other we seek
1:03:26
to Delight in finding and creating different types of human connection and that is what we're all about and second
1:03:33
life yep by kind of turning off those basic needs it does show us that and
1:03:39
it's very beautiful and I think that you know in these times of you know in these dark times right where we worry that the
1:03:46
world is falling apart we would be wise to look at things like second life and remember it is not in
1:03:53
our nature to hurt each other or to ignore each other or to turn away from each other it's
1:03:59
you know what's in our nature is the opposite of that to be good and to take care of each other and that's what you
1:04:05
see in Second Life it's like how you go in and people want to help you as a new Resident you know the for the first
1:04:11
thing is you know people are like hey I can help you out here everybody's right we've all we've all had that we've all been on probably both sides many people
1:04:17
here have been on both sides of that equation right and that's that there it is right we want to help each other
1:04:22
that's that's the way people are almost all of the time so I love that and I
1:04:28
think that was a wonderful question yeah I have to agree because I mean I'm a 16 year resident now and what keeps me
1:04:33
logging in are the connections that I've made with people on day one I still speak to people that I've met on day one
1:04:39
and second life so it's it just it's wonderful uh overwolf do you want to add anything to that
1:04:46
oh come on strawberry I'm not following that one give give me the next question give me give me the next uh question
1:04:53
okay that was a long one I have to admit but it was it was a it was a wonderful question so I definitely wanted to put
1:04:59
it in there wonderful answer yes Philip's answer just blows everybody out
1:05:05
of the water for sure um so okay so the next question is actually pretty great so I want to know overwolf do you log

==============

I highlighted the relevant part of the question and response in the Transcript above.

I suppose that having re-read the Transcript carefully, I agree with Coffee's quote above with reservations that Coffee completely left out the main part of Phillip's response - that (yes!), people seek connections when not burdened with those lower needs.  I agree that this seemed to be the main point Phillip made.

However, to say that Phillip "got it wrong" is pure personal opinion based on one's interpretation of games, people's motivations, and how Maslow's Hierarchy could be applied to "non-Real Life" things such as Second Life.  So, obviously anyone is free to agree or disagree.

 

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Love Zhaoying
Wrong words!

[Silent Mistwalker]

4 hours ago, Marigold Devin said:

27 pages into this thread and I still am struggling to have anything to say. I feel I can't comment well because I haven't got around to watching the video where Maslow's thingy was mentioned. It stirred memories of a college course, which served only a purpose to help me decide what career path I did not want to be on. Life is full of ironies.

Second Life does not fulfil any of my basic needs, as per the bottom two tiers of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. It does not make me feel safe or feed or water me. It is pure luxury, and sometimes frustrating. Very few friendships have been meaningful or long-term, and that saddens me further. (It's not you, it's me. Tee hee.)

But it does look like some people in Second Life were able to more or less go straight to the top of the pyramid, finding creative satisfaction, so lucky them that their real life needs must all have been met and they have been afforded this privilege.  

I'm not questioning you or your wording. Your post did make me think, is it really a privilege for those who have no other means of socializing? How many virtual worlds out there allow you to "play" for free? Is being able to socialize a luxury? 

Because if any of the answers to these questions is yes, especially that last one, then I might as well log off, toss my PCs into the trash, cancel my internet access and be without friend and companionship for the rest of my life. That is no way to have to live.

If my world keeps shrinking pretty soon it will be just me. SL isn't a luxury or a privilege for me. It's essential to my mental wellbeing because of what little socializing I can manage. 

It makes me wonder just how many out there are in the same situation.

[Persephone Emerald]

53 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I'm not questioning you or your wording. Your post did make me think, is it really a privilege for those who have no other means of socializing? How many virtual worlds out there allow you to "play" for free? Is being able to socialize a luxury? 

Because if any of the answers to these questions is yes, especially that last one, then I might as well log off, toss my PCs into the trash, cancel my internet access and be without friend and companionship for the rest of my life. That is no way to have to live.

If my world keeps shrinking pretty soon it will be just me. SL isn't a luxury or a privilege for me. It's essential to my mental wellbeing because of what little socializing I can manage. 

It makes me wonder just how many out there are in the same situation.

Not exactly the same situation, but many are in similar situations. 

I've been thinking back on how an evil ex-housemate said I was addicted to SL, while she was at the same time criticizing me and restricting my behavior in ways that made me feel isolated and trapped in my room. Second Life and this forum were my main means of socialization. SL provided my only mental health support in the form of a peer-support group. She had a therapist and friends she could socialize with, but I couldn't afford a therapist or going to social events in RL. I figured out later that she was actually projecting addictions onto both me and the other housemate, possibly because her mother had been addicted to drugs and alcohol or because she had her own addiction.

SL isn't a luxury or an addiction for me. It's a way for me to feel happy and connected to other people, neither of which should be considered luxuries. If all one has is their basic survival needs being met, that's not a proper life. Wanting to have some human  connection, fun, beauty, pleasure, or creative outlet in our lives doesn't make us irresponsible, hedonistic, weak or selfish. It just makes us human. 

I also don't need to simulate a struggle to meet those basic needs in a virtual world, because I get enough of that struggle in RL. SL provides an escape from that struggle. Perhaps people who aren't struggling to survive in RL, feel it's fun to simulate danger and fear in a game, but it's not fun when danger and fear feel real everyday in RL.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Fauve Aeon said:

The opinion that LL should specifically acknowledge the adult community more or even advertise adult rated content more is probably something that could be more productively addressed with someone in marketing at the Lab instead of a discussion resident-to-resident here. There are probably several ways to better highlight more of the active adult community & content (and downplay the empty clubs full of bots), in the already available avenues - for instance in the destination guide adult category entries, via radio PSA’s on the various adult inworld radio stations and via event partnerships with other adult-themed enterprises in-world, working with the events and shops that serve their community.

Why shouldn't a resident to resident discussion be relevant here? The Lindens and at the very least the Moles do read through the forums and therefore there is no reason it cannot be pointed out that Adult themed promotional material is consistently relegated to areas of the forums and inworld destination guides where few go, especially new people. I'm not familiar with past SLB display regions but I do recall reading from one poster that this is the first time Adult themed displays were even allowed to participate? How crazy is that? Looking at the list of regions though, they were listed as almost an afterthought rather than an equal part to what makes Second Life special. Adult starting with an A should maybe have topped the list (Exhibitor Showcase) and seeing inworld it is separated from the main Birthday regions, almost like they tried to hide it with a tinge of embarrassment.

The new signups are dropping drastically from the past years and considering the dismal retention rate of those signups, it really becomes obvious the Lab is going to have to up its marketing game if it hopes to retain a consistent concurrency. More then a few of us are wondering if the concurrency is maintained by bolstering the bot population when the numbers drop too low.

Each person should maybe consider what brought them to SL in the first place. There have been many simpler virtual worlds and yet here we are probably in a large part because the adult themed parts of SL attracted a more mature resident so that even those who aren't humping their way through their virtual life, are still here in a large part because the type of people this platform attracts.

[Silent Mistwalker]

9 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Not exactly the same situation, but many are in similar situations. 

I've been thinking back on how an evil ex-housemate said I was addicted to SL, while she was at the same time criticizing me and restricting my behavior in ways that made me feel isolated and trapped in my room. Second Life and this forum were my main means of socialization. SL provided my only mental health support in the form of a peer-support group. She had a therapist and friends she could socialize with, but I couldn't afford a therapist or going to social events in RL. I figured out later that she was actually projecting addictions onto both me and the other housemate, possibly because her mother had been addicted to drugs and alcohol or because she had her own addiction.

SL isn't a luxury or an addiction for me. It's a way for me to feel happy and connected to other people, neither of which should be considered luxuries. If all one has is their basic survival needs being met, that's not a proper life. Wanting to have some human  connection, fun, beauty, pleasure, or creative outlet in our lives doesn't make us irresponsible, hedonistic, weak or selfish. It just makes us human. 

I also don't need to simulate a struggle to meet those basic needs in a virtual world, because I get enough of that struggle in RL. SL provides an escape from that struggle. Perhaps people who aren't struggling to survive in RL, feel it's fun to simulate danger and fear in a game, but it's not fun when danger and fear feel real everyday in RL.

Indeed. 

You've pretty much nailed it except instead of roommates, it was family long before SL existed. People don't realize/understand that sticks with you for life and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it.

[Arielle Popstar]

15 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

I also don't need to simulate a struggle to meet those basic needs in a virtual world, because I get enough of that struggle in RL. SL provides an escape from that struggle. Perhaps people who aren't struggling to survive in RL, feel it's fun to simulate danger and fear in a game, but it's not fun when danger and fear feel real everyday in RL.

Imo there is no need to simulate the struggles and dangers of this world. Just read the ToS on how many different ways one can end up on the wrong side of the login procedure. When I signed up and started to read the forums back in 2009, it was full of people posting about Red Zone, copybot, child avatars and other kinks people thought should be reported and accounts banned for. After 3 months of filling my basic needs of a few L$ and clothing, I departed SL for Opensim because there was a much greater safety and security there, the second level of Maslow's pyramid. That is why I related to the OP in that SL failed that second level for me and why I see Philip as being wrong in his supposition that SL fulfills the basic needs of the Avatar by default and allows them to focus on the higher levels.

[Rowan Amore]

28 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

The new signups are dropping drastically

That site is a joke.  6 new sign ups in January?  I don't think so.  This is just another bot website.  

 

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

That site is a joke.  6 new sign ups in January?  I don't think so.  This is just another bot website.  

 

I noted in past years they update only a couple times a year. In any case the previous years show a dramatic reduction in signups.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

34 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

The new signups are dropping drastically

That site is a joke.  6 new sign ups in January?  I don't think so.  This is just another bot website.  

She made us look, so the joke's on us!  Wow, interesting how someone (the website owner) can have the cojones to publish such bogus numbers!

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Love Zhaoying]

16 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Imo there is no need to simulate the struggles and dangers of this world. Just read the ToS on how many different ways one can end up on the wrong side of the login procedure. When I signed up and started to read the forums back in 2009, it was full of people posting about Red Zone, copybot, child avatars and other kinks people thought should be reported and accounts banned for. After 3 months of filling my basic needs of a few L$ and clothing, I departed SL for Opensim because there was a much greater safety and security there, the second level of Maslow's pyramid. That is why I related to the OP in that SL failed that second level for me and why I see Philip as being wrong in his supposition that SL fulfills the basic needs of the Avatar by default and allows them to focus on the higher levels.

I guess, if you can't follow the TOS, then maybe you did the right thing!

Glad you came back, though.  With those dropping numbers, we need all the users we can get!

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I guess, if you can't follow the TOS, then maybe you did the right thing!

Glad you came back, though.  With those dropping numbers, we need all the users we can get!

The ToS by its nature is ambiguous, open to varied interpretations or a Linden having a bad day.

I keep a foot in both worlds and only here for the Adult stuff because Opensim is more conservative that way. It is a wonder that others in this thread are not over there considering how revolted they are with SL sex stuff.

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

The ToS by its nature is ambiguous, open to varied interpretations or a Linden having a bad day.

Weird how I've been here 16 years, and don't know anyone personally who has gotten in trouble from breaking the TOS. 

I guess rules are ambiguous for some people, and easy for others.  Unless perhaps someone walks on eggshells afraid they will break a Rule.

6 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

It is a wonder that others in this thread are not over there considering how revolted they are with SL sex stuff.

Honestly? Nobody in this thread said they were revolted by "sex stuff".  Mostly the judgment is that "it's not all that important to some people".  I challenge you to provide examples.  

For my part, if I posted "Ewww" about someone's "sex stuff" posts, I was joking.   (However, people do share way TMI in the Forums sometimes. Myself included.)

 

[Rowan Amore]

20 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

others in this thread are not over there considering how revolted they are with SL sex stuff.

Who exactly even hinted at being revolted by SL sex stuff?  

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Who exactly even hinted at being revolted by SL sex stuff?  

IKR? It's the same kind of leap certain others made in other parts of the thread.

[Persephone Emerald]

4 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Weird how I've been here 16 years, and don't know anyone personally who has gotten in trouble from breaking the TOS. 

I guess rules are ambiguous for some people, and easy for others.  Unless perhaps someone walks on eggshells afraid they will break a Rule.

I don't know anyone who's gotten in trouble either. Maybe I don't know that many people, or if they did get in trouble they don't talk about if? Or maybe we just hang out with people who don't engage in risky behavior?

I have one friend who was briefly attracted to an avatar who turned out to be underage in RL, but it wasn't like the avatar or their profile looked underage, and as soon as my friend found out they were, they certainly weren't going to flirt with that person or do anything else that could be risky. 

I knew a RP sim owner who of course wanted to be sure that child avatars didn't go to the bathhouse or brothel.

Oh, I also talked friends into selling a G-rated region we were going to share and buy into a PG/ Moderate one instead, because I didn't want to risk being reported for being naked inside my own home.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Persephone Emerald
to add

[Luna Bliss]

This prude accusation stuff...it has to stop.

[Paul Hexem]

43 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Wow, interesting how someone (the website owner) can have the cojones to publish such bogus numbers!

It's the Internet. We can say whatever we want, and someone, somewhere, will take it as the absolute truth.

Wait until I tell people SL is a game and needs more tasks. 

[Love Zhaoying]

28 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

This prude accusation stuff...it has to stop.

I guess we have to choose between slüt-shaming and prüde-shaming.

[Marigold Devin]

3 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I'm not questioning you or your wording. Your post did make me think, is it really a privilege for those who have no other means of socializing? How many virtual worlds out there allow you to "play" for free? Is being able to socialize a luxury? 

Because if any of the answers to these questions is yes, especially that last one, then I might as well log off, toss my PCs into the trash, cancel my internet access and be without friend and companionship for the rest of my life. That is no way to have to live.

If my world keeps shrinking pretty soon it will be just me. SL isn't a luxury or a privilege for me. It's essential to my mental wellbeing because of what little socializing I can manage. 

It makes me wonder just how many out there are in the same situation.

Yes it is a privilege and a luxury, and not a right.

Well, certainly where I live anyway. You might be luckier where you live and having internet access might be seen as essential for whatever reasons.

I'm not meaning to get into conflict with you about this or do that "one upmanship" thing. We all have our own personal lives, our own circumstances, and I know that there have been times, especially during the first years of having to be with my brother around the clock as his carer, meant I was totally tied to the house, unable to socialise in the 3D world, very time-limited, so the internet, for me, was an absolute lifeline. On this I can really empathise with you.

But as for Second Life satisfying any of the elements on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Nope. Not a chance does it do that for me. It does not put a roof over my head, keep me safe, feed me or water me. And that was what I took from the original post.

 

 

 

[Kathlen Onyx]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

The ToS by its nature is ambiguous, open to varied interpretations or a Linden having a bad day.

I keep a foot in both worlds and only here for the Adult stuff because Opensim is more conservative that way. It is a wonder that others in this thread are not over there considering how revolted they are with SL sex stuff.

I don't know what grid you are on but your Opensim experience is WAY different than mine. There is more sex and bullying in Opensim than I've ever seen in SL. I've never known anyone that got banned from SL, yet I know several people that have gotten banned from a grid on Opensim. Not only that but several grids ban the entirety of Opensim or charge grids for access.  As far as Opensim being more conservative? That's a joke right?