Mainstream failure of SL & Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

I think that the bottom two layers are more psychological in an online world, and that's where we lose people. It's great that you can do anything ... for someone who understands that premise/promise coming in. Especially the bottom tier .. the physiological. In online virtual worlds I think this is about feeling familiar and comfortable and the UX and UI most new users encounter does not offer that well enough.

"Anything" is also nightmarish .. go to a restaurant, sit down ask for a menu .. we don't have one, we can make anything. Follow up questions just end up more and more vague and unsatisfying. Anything is a waste of time that in reality means nothing, and everyone feels stupid for trying. The vast majority who come to Anything-you-can-eat-SL walk away hungry (while people here celebrate and mock them for being the "wrong sort").

1 hour ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

What I suspect (as someone whose career is in this field) is that many many new users do not understand this and flail around in this "sea of being able to do whatever they want" and lack some pretty fundamental understanding of what their goal might be.There's also the possibility of a vast disconnect between what they have seen of SL, and what they land in.

But there is no goal .. that's part of the great filter that keeps this place small and niche.

The disconnect is staggering, and there is no easy way to say .. you can achieve what you have seen of SL, with a pile of cash, a lot of study, time and patience .. oh, and photoshop .. lots and lots of photoshop.

Even then, there is no reason why they should even try. The physiological and safety need are not met at all, so everything that might follow isn't just off the table, it's unknowable.

1 hour ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

Look at the images on the SL homepage (and imagine they aren't annoyingly in motion). If I was a new user looking at them I'd assume that I could sign up, log in, and simply select a stunning furry avatar or buff well-dressed dude to explore the world in. If not select, then easily create one. Like in 10 minutes, with nice clothes .. think Sims 4.

Zero to individually personalized furry girl on a swing in 15 minutes. Games have character creators, clothing systems that work for a variety body shapes, LL know this, they made it for Sansar.

15 hours learning archaic systems built around an early 2000's desktop computing paradigm, $50US, and a lot of help is more realistic.

1 hour ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

I really want to see is in-depth research and the delta in expectations of a new user in SL. What they assumed versus what they found when they signed up. That delta .. that gap in expectations .. is a key reason a platform fails to retain people. Or if things are (seemingly) too difficult, the next dopamine fix is just on the next game/site etc and off we go. I study retention, engagement, and growth on platforms for a living, and have been curious since my first days here maybe 15 years ago (and subsequent abandonment up until three years ago) what isn't working.

It's a big problem, and I'd love to help but don't know how other than to be patient with newbies and try to help them through the empty start here.

One of the reason I got into helping with viewer development; try and do more when it came to presenting the feature set SL veterans expect in a way that retained a simplified option set. Doing a better job that could be smarter if possible. But the task is overwhelming and Kitty and I are both sick of people who have tried nothing and are all out of ideas yelling at us (or worse .. so much worse)

Edited June 29, 2023 by Coffee Pancake

[KathrynLisbeth]

Well with SL,  I think is two things going on

Making a loose analogy here, but some kids can make a fun game out of shiny rocks and neat looking sticks.  Some kids like the option to not have to build the thing on the front of the Lego box.  Other kids just sit there unless you hand them a <insert sport here> ball.

So SL is for the big kids that can just being their own sense of play to 'their' entertainment time.   Some people just don't operate like that,  period. 

More so..  Making something that is like that & non-opt out.   Liable to run off the ones that do like the 'bring / configure your own play' to 'their time'

As to the growth of Premium Memberships with Linden homes.  I don't think that Linden homes are 'the' facsimilie of basic / foundational needs. They do make it easier for someone to choose to spend money on SL.  Here is a stipend and here is a House.  A house without buying (the option to Lease land). Land where on next login your new neighbors are an AFK sex club and/or Breedables Farm.  

I think the basic needs part of SL is figuring out the viewer well enough to 'feel you' have accomplished enough to not just say '<redacted> on this !!!'

Of course I have encountered a few that rent a whole region with a get rich quick scheme in mind,  while being unable to figure out how to put their hair back on when it falls off...   but there are always a few.

 

Since the basic need is to figure out how to pilot your avatar.... well.

--- What Katherine Heartsong said above re: the UX / UI -- 

An example is in order I suppose,  of course they seem minor compared to some, but death of 1000 cuts, and I am too lazy to list others.   

As a default in LL viewer, empty system folders are hidden.   New people are New.   Inworld view is dynamic and confusing enough.  Show them a screenshot of the folders and it not match what is on their screen.   *sighs*  

But LL did fix one thing.   The Chat Toolbar button, after years, does have an actual chat bubble on it.  Of course in the CHUI itself the nearby / local chat (minimized) is still that icon that looked like either a sunburst or the north end of a southbound cat.   But once they know that,  then I have actually gotten more than a few to interact in local. 

( Local.  5 letters.  2 of them the same.  Easier when you have not yet become a fast typist.  Yes I know,  only applies to English.. Yadda Yadda)
 
Anyway...  there are things that can be done to make the learning curve a little more straightforward.  Most of that is just defining terms and explaining the underlying concepts in a concise fashion as an addendum to the answering of 'how to do a thing'.   Since is SL and is impossible to answer all the specifics for every possible individual items behaviour.  But that is another story.   

It is just keeping them inworld long enough to see the potential.

Of course it did help me that I am a persistent / obstinate <Redacted>,  that is gonna work to figure it out, period.   

Edited June 29, 2023 by KathrynLisbeth
faulty copypaste from draft

[KathrynLisbeth]

3 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

One of the reason I got into helping with viewer development; try and do more when it came to presenting the feature set SL veterans expect in a way that retained a simplified option set. Doing a better job that could be smarter if possible. But the task is overwhelming and Kitty and I are both sick of people who have tried nothing and are all out of ideas yelling at us (or worse .. so much worse)

Yup.   That is the 'very hard part'.    Even if you get the options arranged right in the viewer.

Then it is avatar assembly.   Sorting thru Google's detritus to figure out what a thing means.  And so on ......

[Coffee Pancake]

6 minutes ago, KathrynLisbeth said:

Well with SL,  I think is two things going on

Making a loose analogy here, but some kids can make a fun game out of shiny rocks and neat looking sticks.  Some kids like the option to not have to build the thing on the front of the Lego box.  Other kids just sit there unless you hand them a <insert sport here> ball.

So SL is for the big kids that can just being their own sense of play to 'their' entertainment time.   Some people just don't operate like that,  period. 

Most people are like that. Participation comes with some expectation.

SL is an entertainment product, not a permanently online logged in 16 hours a day home. Couple of hours a session a day at most is all you can expect of anyone with a job. Couple of hours a couple of times a week is high usage. (you've seen the email message we get on our rezdays I presume, the averages are unbelievably low)

So .. someone logs in for an evening, to do "the thing", here "the thing" is confusing and actually difficult.

Lego sets get returned for being "hard".

6 minutes ago, KathrynLisbeth said:

More so..  Making something that is like that & non-opt out.   Liable to run off the ones that do like the 'bring / configure your own play' to 'their time'

Any guided start or intentional structure would need to be opt opt .. or we're as bad as the skyrim into cart ride. I lose the will to live before it ends.

[KathrynLisbeth]

34 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Lego sets get returned for being "hard".

Any guided start or intentional structure would need to be opt opt .. or we're as bad as the skyrim into cart ride. I lose the will to live before it ends.

I know.   Some people are just not the Lego-type. 

I think the part where SL is losing the ones that are the 'Lego-type' is the inability to make things straightforward.  Of course it is a learn by doing thing, and it's a thing that is a mix of LL and User made content. 

Example:  It has been a few years now that the starter avatars have an AO.    An invisible wearable AO.   Not a HUD.   It doesn't have to be a HUD,  of course.   Why have a HUD?   It is only the 'ecosystem that developed.   The one that experienced users are familiar with using.   A standard on the end user's screen item that lets them know 'Oh!  that's a HUD!'.   One that even has an on/off button so they can be instructed to cycle it when the animation borks.    But that's okay.   Instead we get to go thru the 'how to take it off and put it back on'  or the 'choose a new avatar'.     Just remember if you show them a screenshot of where to find it in inventory,  their system folders may look different.  This can cause worry, so just reassure them.   Can even give them a hug.   Provides a chance to teach how to accept animation permissions.  

And yes...  they Do lose the ones that Would 'get SL', eventually.

Edited June 29, 2023 by KathrynLisbeth
Oops

[Akane Nacht]

4 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This is, in my estimation, why Linden homes have been successful for growth of premium membership and retention where everything else has failed. It presents a facsimile of foundational needs for people to complete. Find a place to call home, and in the process, find a foot hold for their place in Second Life.

I dunno if it's (analogous to) a basic need or not, but I do agree a home is the one thing I'd want as a bare bones paid membership - even before weekly spending money. I've been homeless in SL many times, but it's not for lack of wanting a home, I just couldn't justify the cost. And I almost always found a temporary or shared home in the interim. 

New players may have their hands full with other things initially,  but I recall that as soon as I got the hang of things, I wanted a home. 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Lego sets get returned for being "hard".

So, we should target SL to those with no attention span and/or low IQ..?

Maybe SL should die out rather than "dumb it down". I would rather not be surrounded by hordes of dumb people (think, "Idiocracy").

[Scylla Rhiadra]

I think this is a really interesting question -- kudos to Coffee for keeping us on our toes and thinking with these threads!

But I can't help thinking that, given the particular way this question is being approached, this is really just another, slightly more sophisticated and impressive sounding call for the gamification of Second Life?

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think this is a really interesting question -- kudos to Coffee for keeping us on our toes and thinking with these threads!

But I can't help thinking that, given the particular way this question is being approached, this is really just another, slightly more sophisticated and impressive sounding call for the gamification of Second Life?

Agreed, while some of us "like it the way it is". 

[Qie Niangao]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Agreed, while some of us "like it the way it is". 

There's some weird contagion on this forum lately, where posters are judged by how enamored they are with other games.

It's like faulting an EV for scoring so low on fuel tank capacity.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

17 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Agreed, while some of us "like it the way it is". 

I do indeed like it -- with important caveats -- "the way it is." And a great many of us do: nearly all of us "play games" (who doesn't these days, even if it's just Candy Crush Saga?), but it is by no means true that all residents would call themselves "gamers." Honestly, if I'd had to "level up" to do interesting things in SL when I started, I wouldn't have got very far, and I wouldn't be here now.

But it's a long established fact that there are some people, probably quite a few, who expect some kind of gamification, "leveling up" and even "goals" for SL, and have a difficult time adapting to SL because it doesn't have those things. I wonder if something like what Minecraft does -- with the option to choose "Survival" or "Creative" mode -- might not be something of a solution? There's a commercial system in SL now, is there not, that requires players to eat, rest, and so forth? A "survival" mode would certainly appeal to some.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Qie Niangao said:

There's some weird contagion on this forum lately, where posters are judged by how enamored they are with other games.

It's like faulting an EV for scoring so low on fuel tank capacity.

It's a moving target, too. If you poke holes in their logic on "need goals" (people can choose from thousands of goals), they switch to another complaint like: "But the animations suck!" (But they're really talking about sex); "but it's too expensive!" (Play for free); "but it's too hard to use" (ok, hopefully the mobile viewer will set a new bar); "there's no mobile viewer!" (It's coming); "the graphics suck!" (PBR, etc. are coming); "there's nobody logged in!" (Ugh..learn to search?); "there's nothing to do!" (Give me a break); "other games have less lag" (sorry, user-generated content); "my PC won't run SL" (thought you were a "gamer"?); and on and on.

Maybe Second Life just isn't for the users who come in whining with a laundry list of complaints and demands. Just maybe.

Maybe the ongoing improvements will help with retention over time. Just maybe.

Maybe if it needs to be "gamified", it's really a user training issue: play an in-world game. Need a house? Spend money. 

[Alwin Alcott]

5 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Why am I here?

What do I do?

What is my purpose in this place?

most people need a whole en full life to answer those questions. You can't just put those in a game setting. 

In reality you have to find those answers yourself, nobody can reach those to you. The same for SL.
Many very popular and simple games are meant to forget those questions for a while.

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I wonder if something like what Minecraft does -- with the option to choose "Survival" or "Creative" mode -- might not be something of a solution?

Directed user help.
"Choose an option for your Second Life today:

- Explore

- Customize your Avatar (using free or Shopping)

- Shop

- Find a social group / scene / conversation / dating 

- Build / Create

- Earn L$

- Search for a Linden Home / Mainland Home / Rental Home"

None of these would require "changing Second Life", just simple task-oriented user-directed goals and activities. Simple. A TPV could do it all. Even a HUD could do a lot of it.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Directed user help.
"Choose an option for your Second Life today:

- Explore

- Customize your Avatar (using free or Shopping)

- Shop

- Find a social group / scene / conversation / dating 

- Build / Create

- Earn L$

- Search for a Linden Home / Mainland Home / Rental Home"

None of these would require "changing Second Life", just simple task-oriented user-directed goals and activities. Simple. A TPV could do it all. Even a HUD could do a lot of it.

You're hired!!!!

When can you start?

🙂

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

You're hired!!!!

When can you start?

🙂

I knew you were nice!!

[Alwin Alcott]

5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Directed user help.
"Choose an option for your Second Life today:

- Explore

- Customize your Avatar (using free or Shopping)

- Shop

- Find a social group / scene / conversation / dating 

- Build / Create

- Earn L$

- Search for a Linden Home / Mainland Home / Rental Home 

None of these would require "changing Second Life", just simple task-oriented user-directed goals and activities. Simple. A TPV could do it all. Even a HUD could do a lot of it.

add..
first - get your basic skills ( and can't leave starter island before you have those)

should't be to hard for the youth  

Edited June 29, 2023 by Alwin Alcott

[Alwin Alcott]

in many other games new players get shot hundreds of times in the first days, ánd keep comming back, perhaps we should disable the "safe" option on more regions..
next to helpers perhaps also make a "sniper" group for that purpose 

yes, this is only a joke.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

in many other games new players get shot hundreds of times in the first days, ánd keep comming back, perhaps we should disable the "safe" option on more regions..
next to helpers perhaps also make a "sniper" group for that purpose 

yes, this is only a joke.

Give every noob a gun and a TP to a "damage zone". Gamified.

[Anna Nova]

I'm a Clinical Psychologist.  I only come here to get away from work.

[animats]

5 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Even when I don't go to my Linden Home, I like knowing it's there. I like knowing the SL world is there too, even when I don't log in.

It is a nice feature. I wonder how important that is to many users.

[PheebyKatz]

I've unlocked pretty much every achievement, and I still like it after almost 8 years. I can't say that about anything else, even in RL.

I like SL.

[InnerCity Elf]

7 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

To continue the mincraft example 

The zombies are only a a threat at the start when you are least equipped to deal with them. As you progress, your ability to solve that problem grows to to the point that they only exists when you desire them to.

It's not long into the game when you have enough resources to plant torches around your house, stopping them from spawning at all (zombies only appear in dark places).

That specific survival need is met and resolved. The "survive the night zombie panic" part of the game is over.

But players continue to make a bigger nicer elaborate houses though out the entire play session (which can run on for years). The initial foundational need pivots into a primary fun activity.

 

I'm not suggesting SL should have some on going need to refuel our avatars like the sims, that kind of chore work is miserable and tends to punish players rather than creating an interesting and engaging experience.

 

 

Sounds as if we have a version of that, the zombies won't try to eat you but ask for slex or voice (probably the same, in essence), or just to bite you. Once you found out you can mute, tp away, get a garlic necklace, you're living the second life.

It's even very high-level in a meta way, SL doesn't even need to provide the zombies, they provide themselves.

Joking, of course, but I find myself agreeing with the people who say they rather skip the zombie stage, real life really is enough of a grind for me. Zombie stage might attract or retain some more people of some personality type, and prevent some more people of another personality type, and indeed, I feel as if there are more than enough zombie stage games, or "games" for those who prefer to have the quote marks around it for SL, around, and that SL is one of its kind.

Of course, one can argue that SL "needs" more people, and needs to retain more people of other personality or skill types, and if that really would be absolutely needed before the plug would have to be pulled, a zombie stage may be an option (although I don't think and it probably wouldn't necessarily prove to be the saving grace), but, apart from that, I don't see the need to cater to everyone. I used to work at a furniture shop, handmade, restored, upcycled. People who would typically shop at IKEA or such, the majority, typically wouldn't come in, it was a niche (work)shop, and we certainly didn't get rich with it, but we didn't go out of business, as there always were people looking for what we offered, ans both we and our customers had fun, and didn't want to develop into/visit an IKEA-like shop.

I don't really see the premise, unless the owners of SL want to become Minecraft, or desperately need to make much more money. Retention is certainly something to think about and try to achieve, though, but maybe better through things that align more with "the spirit of SL and its more or less loyal user base". If they'd try to appeal to different types too much, and as result lose their loyal user base or "natural" new users, but still not manage to retain those different types of audience beyond the zombie stage, they might well shoot themselves, and us, in the foot. But I don't know, of course, maybe a zombie stage experiment would prove fruitful.

As for mainstream failure, yes, probably it is a mainstream failure (not sure how mainstream something needs to be to be considered mainstream in this case), but I think, rather than that pyramid's bottom layer not met, it's the complexity of the interface and the freedom to "be and do what you want" of what would be beyond that hypothetical initial zombie stage that isn't mainstreamy and easy/quick access enough to make it mainstream-ready. So, I think, working on making those "higher-level" things more accessible, is a more promising plan than implementing a zombie stage.

Maybe they could have a "forced zombie stage" every October, to see how it helps, or not, and the "oldbies" would accept it as a passing Halloween fun, or passing Halloween annoyance? 🕊️

Edited June 29, 2023 by InnerCity Elf

[Theresa Tennyson]

7 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

At this point, most everyone has made an SL account at some point.

 

Where does "hyperbole" fall on the pyramid?

[Henri Beauchamp]

10 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Obviously this is pure psychology nerd garbage as starving artists exist

In all honesty, I never heard before about this ”Maslow's pyramid”: it is likely way too simplistic for our ”old Europe” thinking and indeed pure garbage.

I would even go provocative and say that when you struggle for life, you can be the most creative person in the world to manage and find a way to survive, way more creative (and often in much more useful ways) than a billionaire who achieved everything in their life (which is not to say some billionaires are not still creative, but just that creativity is not at all related to a person's social status).

Throwing that pyramid to the trash, where it belongs, I would however fully agree with Oberwolf on the influence of how safe you feel with regards to your altruism; when you struggle for life, your own interests always come first, and in extreme cases, it's just the law of the jungle which prevails, with predatory reactions that are all but altruistic or even fair towards others.

As for how it applies to SL, I understood the parallel Oberwolf made with regard to how people behave in MMORPGs: those games got the ”survival” and competition aspects SL does not have, which indeed totally changes how ”players” (or ”residents”, for SL) interact.

Making a parallel between SL and RL, however, would be a bit too bold in my view. For example, I would say that SLers are already among the ”privileged” people who do not need to struggle too much in real life, so they won't really behave very differently in RL and in SL, at least not because of their social status; many other aspects, such anonymity, or the absence of a social competition with others, do play a way bigger role in how different people would behave in RL and in SL.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Henri Beauchamp