Where are the Lindens?

[Innula Zenovka]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Oh, I don't think there's any question. But they're still fictional, and that remains a fairly distant reference to them.

And, more to the point, the Stormtroopers aren't being represented as "good guys."

I don't think this is about representations of "evil" in SL. It's about specifically representing a group and an ideology that was directly responsible for the murder of millions of people. And there ARE holocaust survivors still living today to bear witness to it.

There aren't any modern political groups that identify with Lucas's stormtroopers. There ARE literal NeoNazis around who venerate these psychopaths and think they had entirely the right idea.

There seem to be four groups in search that reference the Waffen SS.   Three of them (including the one you reference) are clearly WW2 RP groups (and, to be fair, it must be difficult to do WW2 combat RP without the Waffen SS, since they had all the German tank divisions).   The fourth I'm not sure about, since it doesn't have a description, but it's a closed enrolment group with 14 members.   

Edited May 29, 2023 by Innula Zenovka

[Love Zhaoying]

39 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Someone erected a statue of Lenin a while ago at my group parcel. I removed it without hesitation. If I knew of anyone who venerated Stalin in my groups, I'd boot them in a moment.

I'm reminded lately (with the SS group, etc.) of seeing boys my age in Elementary school, somewhere in grade 3-6 who I'd see drawing pictures of cars, tanks, and swastikas. I figured back then,  "must be a 'boy' thing I'm just not interested in." But now I wonder if those kids turned out ok or just "weren't right".

[Scylla Rhiadra]

49 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

There seem to be four groups in search that reference the Waffen SS.   Three of them (including the one you reference) are clearly WW2 RP groups (and, to be fair, it must be difficult to do WW2 combat RP without the Waffen SS, since they had all the German tank divisions).   The fourth I'm not sure about, since it doesn't have a description, but it's a closed enrolment group with 14 members.   

Not sure of your point Innula.

It's "ok" if they're RP groups . . . as opposed to, you know, actual Waffen SS?

So, by that token, RPing Auschwitz is ok because, well, it's just RP -- and it's awfully difficult to RP Nazi Germany without also representing the death camps.

You really want to make this argument?

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Not sure of your point Innula.

It's "ok" if they're RP groups . . . as opposed to, you know, actual Waffen SS?

So, by that token, RPing Auschwitz is ok because, well, it's just RP -- and it's awfully difficult to RP Nazi Germany without also representing the death camps.

You really want to make this argument?

What's all this say about the new Indiana Jones movie?

What does it all mean?

What does anything mean?

I could so punch a Nazi right now.

[Silent Mistwalker]

Sometimes you just have to ask yourself, is this the hill I want to die on?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

8 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

What's all this say about the new Indiana Jones movie?

A movie isn't RP -- no one is pretending to be a Nazi because they enjoy playing Nazis, they are doing so in service of a fictionalized representation.

What's more, the Nazis in the Indiana Jones movies are, I can pretty confidently assert, being critiqued for being Nazis. A movie that makes them into protagonists and "heroes" would be a rather different thing.

ETA: I don't want to punch anyone. Not even a Nazi -- that's too much like adopting the techniques of the Brown Shirts.

But (and I know that this is not what you are arguing, Love -- this isn't directed against you), LL's CS document undertakes a commitment to creating an environment free from hatred, fear, and intolerance. That's a pretty lofty and, we can agree pretty much unattainable goal in any pure or absolute sense.

But if representing literal Nazis doesn't represent something that violates that undertaking, then the CS's provisions for "tolerance" are quite obviously a very poor joke.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Rufferta]

Just to change the topic - there were over a dozen Lindens at a recent event - "Bid the Lindens Bald" - they raised $L736,000 for charity. 

It looked to me as if they had put a lot of effort into their coiffures, and some of them were enthusiastically participating.  The ones that got the least bids were stoic about being shaved bald. 

 

It seems to me that Second Life is such a large place that it would be rare to run into a Linden outside of public events. I suspect the ones that are inworld are building things in areas we can't see. Some of them who work online have helped me with different problems  - most recently Mint Linden quickly and professionally helped me find some lost inventory.

 

Yes, I still have a lot of complaints, but I don't think it is fair to insinuate that the Lindens aren't working just because you don't see them.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Rufferta

[Arielle Popstar]

9 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

So, by that token, RPing Auschwitz is ok because, well, it's just RP -- and it's awfully difficult to RP Nazi Germany without also representing the death camps.

You really want to make this argument?

Well start banning them and no doubt there will be those who think the same should be done with inworld abortion groups and clinics, being they serve the same function.

That is where your argument will lead to. Like I said already, I doubt it is a debate the Lindens would want to get into because there are other parallels too that could be made with SS and death camps that you currently support.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

Well start banning them and no doubt there will be those who think the same should be done with inworld abortion groups and clinics, being they serve the same function.

That is where your argument will lead to. Like I said already, I doubt it is a debate the Lindens would want to get into because there are other parallels too that could be made with SS and death camps that you currently support.

I'm not following you once again down the path of a reductio ad absurdum, Arielle. A relativist "well, sure the Nazis were nasty, but just look at Planned Parenthood!" argument is beyond ridiculous.

Actually, I'm pretty much done with this argument. It verges on offensive that I have to explain why representing the murderous racist, homophobic louts who were eager participants in one of history's greatest and most appalling atrocities is really not a very good thing that clearly violates LL's own written policies.

Take it to Reddit, and have fun there. I'm not going to argue further about this.

[Jaylinbridges]

9 hours ago, Caeruleiae said:

Although in our case the people meant to troubleshoot connect with customers address issues and other such things are expected to. If they don't-we get rid of them.

So you don't think SL customer support is doing their job?  They are the only ones who directly communicate with residents, and they have little to no input into policy or priorities of upper management.  I take it you have never actually worked for a large company with a chain of command.

[Innula Zenovka]

26 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Not sure of your point Innula.

It's "ok" if they're RP groups . . . as opposed to, you know, actual Waffen SS?

So, by that token, RPing Auschwitz is ok because, well, it's just RP -- and it's awfully difficult to RP Nazi Germany without also representing the death camps.

You really want to make this argument?

No.   My point is that if people want to do WW2 combat RP involving German tanks, of which there are a considerable number for sale on the Marketplace, they can't avoid the connection with the Waffen SS,  at least not it they're interested in historical accuracy, since all the German tank divisions were part of that organisation.

Since it's now well-established that the regular WW2 Wehrmacht were just as involved in the Holocaust as were the Waffen SS, and the Japanese military didn't have a particularly good record in China or Korea, either, I can see the argument for banning WW2 combat RP altogether, but then I think you should make that argument rather than object to people wanting to RP particular Axis formations.

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by Innula Zenovka

[Jaylinbridges]

This thread has NOTHING to do with Nazi's.  Is this off-topic rant a test to see if the Lindens and moles are still monitoring the forum?  

[Love Zhaoying]

8 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Actually, I'm pretty much done with this argument. It verges on offensive that I have to explain why representing the murderous racist, homophobic louts who were eager participants in one of history's greatest and most appalling atrocities is really not a very good thing that clearly violates LL's own written policies.

Take it to Reddit, and have fun there. I'm not going to argue further about this.

Well, they were freethinkers, y'know?

[Caeruleiae]

8 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

So you don't think SL customer support is doing their job?  They are the only ones who directly communicate with residents, and they have little to no input into policy or priorities of upper management.  I take it you have never actually worked for a large company with a chain of command.

I don't think they are doing their job either-that's correct. I think ll has dropped the ball on multiple levels.

Admittedly the company I work for now is a mid-sized company-but I started out working in customer service for a very large and well known company. I understand chain of command and hierarchy very well. I also tend to beieve that just because everyone does it-or others do-doesn't make it an acceptable practice. That is exactly why I stopped working for the larger company and moved to the one I work for now. I want my employer to expect more of me and my coworkers. I don't want to work for any company that not only expects but accepts mediocrity. 

 

[Quartz Mole]

2 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

This thread has NOTHING to do with Nazi's.  Is this off-topic rant a test to see if the Lindens and moles are still monitoring the forum?  

I think Scylla's point was that she thinks LL ignore Abuse Reports about particular WW2 combat RP groups, which I think is on topic, but I agree that the discussion needs to stick with SL and not go off onto wider issues.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

This thread has NOTHING to do with Nazi's.  Is this off-topic rant a test to see if the Lindens and moles are still monitoring the forum?  

This thread asks "Where are the Lindens."

Well, wherever they are, they aren't out there policing their own CS and ToS. The Lindens don't only work on the technical side of SL.

Sorry you are bored by discussions of LL's failure to enforce their own guidelines though.

ETA: I missed Quartz's post before I put this up, but it is entirely the point I have been making.

And yes, we don't need to have far-reaching discussions about Nazism. We can and maybe should focus on the enforcement and interpretation of LL's own CS.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Caeruleiae]

22 minutes ago, Rufferta said:

Yes, I still have a lot of complaints, but I don't think it is fair to insinuate that the Lindens aren't working just because you don't see them.

I've seen them at events too. They didn't raise that money-other people that bid raised that money. I fail to see what being present at events-which I already stated they are present for-has to do with them doing their job and really being connected with users and understanding how they use sl on a daily basis. You can be an amazing person and attend all events possible-even interact with the crowds there-and still be bad at your job. 

I saw them at the Christmas events too-want to know how many of them were actually interacting with people and seemed as if they weren't just afk at any of the events I attended? The number is less than 5-even if there were a dozen or more present at the time. That's abysmal-but again has nothing to do with understanding the platform the residents or how they use it. 

[Caeruleiae]

3 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

What specific issues do you have in mind that you don't think LL is already aware of from communication methods we know exist,, like usergroup meetings, bug reports and feature requests in the JIRA, or from dealing with support tickets?

The fact some things don't get fixed might mean they're not as easy to fix as you perhaps think they are.

When did I mention they would be easy to fix?  I did say the disconnect is the biggest problem. They really do need more employees in sl experiencing sl as if they have no knowledge of how it runs on the back end. They need more employees who have maybe only ever been residents who just do whatever people do in sl on the daily and report that to them including any issues they run into. They need better pr and hr people. They need better support people and just generally people who will work for them and call them on their crap when they aren't getting it right. But I'm not one to fall in line with a company-if I see something wrong or not working I will tell them.   

Some of the biggest complaints I have read people mention that could and should have been solved or at least worked on more years ago before they got to be a big as they are now include-even if not experienced by all as I don't have all of these problems either: group issues, chat issues, friends list issues, region crossing issues, customer service issues, marketplace issues, and communication issues. Even the JIRA points this out when you look at so many open or immediately closed with no real response reports. I don't know about them all and definitely don't experience them all-but I can still have empathy and even sympathy for those who have. I can feel their frustrations in their words and can understand them too. That's probably my customer service and developer experience which causes that though. I can see why people are angry about the disconnect they feel-even if I don't always feel it myself. 

Just because things aren't easy doesn't mean they should go ignored or unaddressed for years. I have commented on that whole soon thing like a lot of other people here have too-but that's a perfect example of a company choosing to ignore something until they no longer can or wanting people to believe they are further along than they are. They think soon or we know or we'll address it or at the next meeting or-insert whatever nonresponse you want here-will appease people. I think it only appeases people for so long and it's a sign of weakness and disconnect. We have a couple of issues we've been working on for the better part of a year where I work-as they're extremely difficult to work through and not something all of us or our customers experience-but we don't stay quiet about it or pretend we're further along than we are in the repair. 

In a place where they get so much right-because I do really like sl-I don't know how they can get something as basic as communication with or without fixes-difficulty levels varying-so very wrong. 

[Love Zhaoying]

22 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

I think Scylla's point was that she thinks LL ignore Abuse Reports about particular WW2 combat RP groups, which I think is on topic, but I agree that the discussion needs to stick with SL and not go off onto wider issues.

^^ There's one right there!! 

Some may disagree with me, but for Moderation purposes, a Mole is equivalent to a Linden.

Keep in mind, I believe @Alwin Alcott's original post in this thread was about "where are the Lindens" HERE / in the Forum, meaning..Moderators.

Thanks, @Quartz Mole!

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Love Zhaoying]

On 5/26/2023 at 7:42 AM, Alwin Alcott said:

On 5/26/2023 at 5:04 AM, Love Zhaoying said:

Do you specifically mean "where are Lindens" on the Forums? Some people are replying as if you meant "where are Lindens" in general.

yep forums .. inworld i think have seen them once or twice in the 17 yrs that i'm here, wouldn't miss them there soon in that frequency

^^ This right here is where the Original Poster confirmed what was meant by his Original Post in this thread.

So, the actual topic is, "where are Lindens in the Forum?", not "where is Moderation in-world?".

Just to remind y'all.

[Caeruleiae]

5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

^^ There's one right there!! 

Some may disagree with me, but for Moderation purposes, a Mole is equivalent to a Linden.

Keep in mind, I believe @Alwin Alcott's original post in this thread was about "where are the Lindens" HERE / in the Forum, meaning..Moderators.

Thanks, @Quartz Mole!

 

I definitely appreciate the ones that are present and do the best they can-even if I may not see them myself.

That said ll has almost 300 employees-and you won't find more than a handful or half a handful here on the forums. Of course the forums are pretty small so I wouldn't expect even 10% of them to ever be present here on the forums. I think that would be a silly expectation. 

I was going to run through my actual expectations but I think it will just get me more flack. Suffice it to say yes I do think ll can and should do better. I don't think I'm alone in that. I expect better because my company which is actually smaller than ll despite still being mid-sized expects better and that's what we do. My expectations are a bit higher than some-I admit. I just don't think they're unreasonable. 

[Rolig Loon]

23 minutes ago, Caeruleiae said:

That said ll has almost 300 employees-and you won't find more than a handful or half a handful here on the forums. Of course the forums are pretty small so I wouldn't expect even 10% of them to ever be present here on the forums.

The size of the forums isn't the relevant factor.  What's relevant is that the bookkeepers, secretaries, custodians, IT maintenance staff -- all the "little people" who count for a lot of the bodies on any company's payroll -- have little or nothing of relevance to add  to forum discussions.  Other than for their own recreation, they also have no particular reason to wander in world.  It's disengenous to quote a number like 300 employees and imply that they all ought to be paying attention to what residents are concerned about.

On the other hand, that 300 figure almost certainly does not include the moles, who are contract employees, not Lindens, but who are in world and in the forum quite a lot.  I suspect that most (all?) of them are also SL residents, so they have a good feel for what life in world is like.  They are also responsible for creating, testing, and fixing a lot of the things that we see daily.

[Jaylinbridges]

36 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

So, the actual topic is, "where are Lindens in the Forum?", not "where is Moderation in-world?".

Just to remind y'all.

 

Who are you speaking to?  Where are the posts about moderation?  You are the expert at red herrings.  

When the subject of the post goes totally off topic, the lack of Lindens to remind the posters is still noted.  And btw a Mole is not a Linden, despite your opinion.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Jaylinbridges

[Love Zhaoying]

12 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Who are you speaking to? 

Anyone who thought the post was NOT about "where are the Lindens in the Forums?". The topic had drifted to "in-world moderation" for a long time.

12 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Where are the posts about moderation? 

..yay, my point..

12 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

You are the expert at red herrings.  

..Thank you..?

Please note, my question to the OP which I quoted, regarding his actual intention for the thread, was sincere. Also, when I brought it up, by quoting that, it was also sincere. If you want to judge me from other posts and dismiss me, then..ok?

I'm just trying to inform everyone, again, as I did when I asked the OP his intention for the thread, what the "actual topic of the thread is". In other words, I'm doing my part by being a good Forum citizen.

12 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

And btw a Mole is not a Linden, despite your opinion.

I don't disagree. And yet, a moderator is a moderator.

Thank you for participating in the Forums! I learn a lot from everyone.

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

No.   My point is that if people want to do WW2 combat RP involving German tanks, of which there are a considerable number for sale on the Marketplace, they can't avoid the connection with the Waffen SS,  at least not it they're interested in historical accuracy, since all the German tank divisions were part of that organisation.

Since it's now well-established that the regular WW2 Wehrmacht were just as involved in the Holocaust as were the Waffen SS, and the Japanese military didn't have a particularly good record in China or Korea, either, I can see the argument for banning WW2 combat RP altogether, but then I think you should make that argument rather than object to people wanting to RP particular Axis formations.

 

I'm more than a little sceptical about your point regarding regarding Panzer divisions, as my researches don't seem to bear it out, at least until the last year or two of the war, when the Germans were cannibalizing regular divisions to create or fill out badly depleted SS divisions. This page seems to list a great many tank divisions that were not Waffen SS. (There were only ever 38 SS divisions in total.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_divisions_in_World_War_II

I'll also note that earlier, in another thread, I voiced some discomfort with representing German WWII troops at all, in part for the reason you give above.

But no matter.

The most important point regarding "historical accuracy" is that I don't care. I'm pretty sure that all sorts of matters of "historical accuracy" are going out the window in these "re-enactments," and if one those happens to be a Waffen-SS designation . . . well, gosh, that's just too bad.

Nor does the Community Standards document make an exception for hate groups if they are "historically accurate."

Edited May 30, 2023 by Scylla Rhiadra