Where are the Lindens?

[Sid Nagy]

6 hours ago, Randall Ahren said:

The Lindens are off counting their money after that last fee jacking, and plotting how much they're going to increase fees next year.

Do you think it will take that long before the next money grab?

[Phil Deakins]

On 5/26/2023 at 1:42 PM, Caeruleiae said:

I think they don't spend enough-sometimes any- time inworld too.

That's a assumption without any evidence. Lindens can have alts y'know, and actually use SL for various things. I knew one who had an alt and was intending to set up a store with it. I gave her a few bits for that purpose. I've no idea if she did it or not but she did have an alt that she used. Many Lindens through the years probably have/had alts. 

Edited May 29, 2023 by Phil Deakins

[Arielle Popstar]

[Caeruleiae]

1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

That's a assumption without any evidence.

Fair enough if you believe this-I don't.

I think the evidence is the very clear disconnect between them residents what residents want and how residents use sl. You've been here a lot longer than I have so maybe you have evidence that refutes this. I don't have that evidence. What I have is 19+ years of people complaining about similar things with few of the complaints-that I can read anyway-having ever really been addressed or fix about their lack of communication or understanding of things like people. I have the I guess luxury of not being here for most of sl's life but having loads of textual evidence that I'm probably not really far off in my opinions. I'm sure some have alts. I'm also sure some experience sl on their linden names too. I'm still sure the disconnect is real and the majority of it stems from a lack of understanding.  I am also very sure there are are a decent amount of employees that never step foot in sl or do so very limitedly-which may be because for some of them it's not their job to understand anything but to just work. 

I know my company has people who don't understand our customers or how they use our products and services too. I can't imagine any company exists where this isn't true. Although in our case the people meant to troubleshoot connect with customers address issues and other such things are expected to. If they don't-we get rid of them.

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by Caeruleiae

[Phil Deakins]

1 hour ago, Caeruleiae said:

Fair enough if you believe this-I don't.

I told you about one such Linden, and I have no doubt that there have been many more, and probably still are. Also some Lindens were ordinary residents before they became Lindens. One of them was already mentioned in this thread and another was Torley. I remember that the company encouraged the staff (Lindens) to have alts and get to know SL as users.

 

1 hour ago, Caeruleiae said:

I think the evidence is the very clear disconnect between them residents what residents want and how residents use sl.

I agree that there is a huge disconnect between users and LL. I would go even further and say what I've said for a long time - that LL doesn't care about users, as long as there are users. It doesn't mean that Lindens don't know what SL is like for users though. Maybe many don't, and maybe many do. We simply don't know. What I do know is that there have been some Lindens who knew SL as users, and that, at least for a while, Lindens were encouraged to have alts and get to know SL as users.

 

[Sid Nagy]

If a Linden wants to know how SL works and how users look at SL, the only way to do so is on alts IMHO.
Incognito.  Otherwise the Linden will mainly find the fanboys, fangirls and groupies, like rock stars.  "Can I have your bear please?"  "Wait a sec please, I want to make a selfie with you" etc..

Edited May 29, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Silent Mistwalker]

6 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

That's a assumption without any evidence. Lindens can have alts y'know, and actually use SL for various things. I knew one who had an alt and was intending to set up a store with it. I gave her a few bits for that purpose. I've no idea if she did it or not but she did have an alt that she used. Many Lindens through the years probably have/had alts. 

At one time, LL would have considered that to be a conflict of interest and not allowed it. I haven't seen anything to indicate that has changed.

Edit: The store, not the alts, to be clear.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Silent Mistwalker

[Love Zhaoying]

4 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

Lindens can have alts y'know, and actually use SL for various things.

Whoa...!!

I thought of a new pickup line for if you want to date a Linden!

"I was wondering, would be you interested if I were to date your Alt?"

[Caeruleiae]

3 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

What I do know is that there have been some Lindens who knew SL as users, and that, at least for a while, Lindens were encouraged to have alts and get to know SL as users

Yet they have done absolutely nothing with that information. Like I said-the same complaints have been present as far back as I can read. Since I don't have firsthand knowledge of the former years of sl-I have to rely on what I can find. What I can find is that even if employees were encouraged or even told to get to know sl as users they have done very little to nothing with it. That's the entirety of the disconnect. Either they didn't listen-most of them-and chose not to get to know sl as someone not an employee. Or they did listen-had alts- still didn't quite get the assignment-explaining the continued disconnect.

 

[Caeruleiae]

2 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

If a Linden wants to know how SL works and how user look at SL, the only way to do so is on alts IMHO.
Incognito.  Otherwise the Linden will mainly find the fanboys, fangirls and groupies, like rock stars.  "Can I have your bear please?"  "Wait a sec please, I want to make a selfie with you" etc..

I agree with this entirely-which is why I believe far less of them have actually experienced sl in this way-as regular users would-or else a lot more would have changed by now and more of the basic why doesn't ll understand how we use sl questions would have been at least addressed in all these years.

I don't doubt some have alts-I doubt the belief that most or even a lot of them do or have. I'm sure some do have alts. I don't necessarily believe they've done anything productive with them to help solve problems-but those who do have alts may not necessarily be in a position where they actually can. I think there are probably plenty who could-if they chose to. I have a hard time understanding why they don't. I think it probably has more to do with my own experiences with my company and all that job entails. I'd feel like a failure if I was so disconnected from my customers and even other employees. It's a weird concept for me to understand I guess.  I love my job and I love doing it to the best of my ability-even when it's difficult or obnoxious at times-because it can be. I have a difficult time understanding people who stay in a specific job for 5+ years and still don't understand how to do it. I'm not naturally a cynic in all things-but I am when it comes to this. I very well may be jaded and just not have enough life experience to understand this disconnected mindset. It may not be as negative a thing as I personally believe it is-but I don't intend to change my mind on that. I think if I did it might creep over into my own job and I'd run the risk of doing it just as poorly-and I love my job. 

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

3 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

If a Linden wants to know how SL works and how user look at SL, the only way to do so is on alts IMHO.
Incognito.  Otherwise the Linden will mainly find the fanboys, fangirls and groupies, like rock stars.  "Can I have your bear please?"  "Wait a sec please, I want to make a selfie with you" etc..

I actually ran into that.  When I had my venue in world eons ago --- I had a Linden staff there who wanted to enjoy some music on his break. He PMed me say he wanted to stick around but was getting hounded in PMs from people asking him to fix that or do that. I made an announcement asking peeps to limit to saying hi in open chat to him and to lodge tickets at the Lab's help desk to handle any issue. I even posted the Lab's support link in chat.

After that he was able to enjoy the music for a few before going back to work.

[Innula Zenovka]

47 minutes ago, Caeruleiae said:

Yet they have done absolutely nothing with that information. Like I said-the same complaints have been present as far back as I can read. Since I don't have firsthand knowledge of the former years of sl-I have to rely on what I can find. What I can find is that even if employees were encouraged or even told to get to know sl as users they have done very little to nothing with it. That's the entirety of the disconnect. Either they didn't listen-most of them-and chose not to get to know sl as someone not an employee. Or they did listen-had alts- still didn't quite get the assignment-explaining the continued disconnect.

 

What specific issues do you have in mind that you don't think LL is already aware of from communication methods we know exist,, like usergroup meetings, bug reports and feature requests in the JIRA, or from dealing with support tickets?

The fact some things don't get fixed might mean they're not as easy to fix as you perhaps think they are.

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

44 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

The fact some things don't get fixed might mean they're not as easy to fix as you perhaps think they are.

Or that LL doesn't care.

There are still a couple of really upstanding groups in SL for representing the Waffen SS. ARs on the matter are apparently remaining unheeded.

Join SL! Be a proud Nazi! (Swastika armbands available at the door.)

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

There are still a couple of really upstanding groups in SL for representing the Waffen SS.

Is oxymoron?  Maybe I dunno what "upstanding" means in this context?

My normal usage is for example, "He is a fine, upstanding young man."

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Is oxymoron?  Maybe I dunno what "upstanding" means in this context?

My normal usage is for example, "He is a fine, upstanding young man."

I was being ironic.

ETA: To be clearer, one of the groups praises the SS's qualities of "loyalty and honor," and calls them "Elite and proud."

Someone clearly DOES think they were "upstanding."

Edited May 29, 2023 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I was being ironic.

ETA: To be clearer, one of the groups praises the SS's qualities of "loyalty and honor," and calls them "Elite and proud."

Someone clearly DOES think they were "upstanding."

Thanks, I tend to take you seriously! (See: All history of interactions!)

ETA: I did have another thought on them. The "501st" - Star Warms Stormtrooper "official" RP roleplayers.  George Lucas pretty clearly based a lot of the "Empire" uniforms, etc. on the WW2 Germans.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Love Zhaoying]

8 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I was being ironic.

ETA: To be clearer, one of the groups praises the SS's qualities of "loyalty and honor," and calls them "Elite and proud."

Someone clearly DOES think they were "upstanding."

I was slow so in case you missed it: ETA: I did have another thought on them. The "501st" - Star Warms Stormtrooper "official" RP roleplayers.  George Lucas pretty clearly based a lot of the "Empire" uniforms, etc. on the WW2 Germans. So, maybe these guys think they are "good guy Nazi's" like the 501st probably think they are "good guy" Stormtroopers?

Edited May 29, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I was slow so in case you missed it: ETA: I did have another thought on them. The "501st" - Star Warms Stormtrooper "official" RP roleplayers.  George Lucas pretty clearly based a lot of the "Empire" uniforms, etc. on the WW2 Germans.

Oh, I don't think there's any question. But they're still fictional, and that remains a fairly distant reference to them.

And, more to the point, the Stormtroopers aren't being represented as "good guys."

I don't think this is about representations of "evil" in SL. It's about specifically representing a group and an ideology that was directly responsible for the murder of millions of people. And there ARE holocaust survivors still living today to bear witness to it.

There aren't any modern political groups that identify with Lucas's stormtroopers. There ARE literal NeoNazis around who venerate these psychopaths and think they had entirely the right idea.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I don't think this is about representations of "evil" in SL. It's about specifically representing a group and an ideology that was directly responsible for the murder of millions of people. And there ARE holocaust survivors still living today to bear witness to it.

I just don't get why the group exists still.  You'd think when you posted about it, a few other Forumites reported it. I assume "Hate Group" is the rational reason, seeing as they represent "hating Jewish people" (and other groups affected by the Holocaust, like us Pink Triangle folks).

[Love Zhaoying]

16 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And, more to the point, the Stormtroopers aren't being represented as "good guys."

A comedian famously asked, "But what about the guy who stocked the Coke machines on the Death Star? Did he deserve to die!"

[Ayashe Ninetails]

42 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Or that LL doesn't care.

There are still a couple of really upstanding groups in SL for representing the Waffen SS. ARs on the matter are apparently remaining unheeded.

You'll excuse me if I'm not surprised in the slightest.

I've actually had to ban myself from searching Groups due to half of the garbage I've seen in there. And don't get me started on the groups that turn up in peoples' profiles.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Ayashe Ninetails
Grammaring

[Arielle Popstar]

16 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Oh, I don't think there's any question. But they're still fictional, and that remains a fairly distant reference to them.

And, more to the point, the Stormtroopers aren't being represented as "good guys."

I don't think this is about representations of "evil" in SL. It's about specifically representing a group and an ideology that was directly responsible for the murder of millions of people. And there ARE holocaust survivors still living today to bear witness to it.

There aren't any modern political groups that identify with Lucas's stormtroopers. There ARE literal NeoNazis around who venerate these psychopaths and think they had entirely the right idea.

Can certainly understand why the Lab would prefer to stay out of that sort of controversy. Ban them and then there would be questions about other groups that have similar ideas but in a different way that are considered politically correct nonetheless. Ideologies with historical genocidal tendencies, were not just the hallmark of one group only.

Probably off topic anyway from what the OP intended the thread to be about.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

16 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I just don't get why the group exists still.  You'd think when you posted about it, a few other Forumites reported it. I assume "Hate Group" is the rational reason, seeing as they represent "hating Jewish people" (and other groups affected by the Holocaust, like us Pink Triangle folks).

You and me both, Love. And more than a few other people.

If a group like the Waffen SS doesn't clearly fall afoul of the "Tolerance" clause in the CS, then I seriously don't know what does. I can't even Godwin myself talking about them, because, well . . .

Is it time for some dark humour yet?

 

Apparently, LL needs to watch this? They don't seem to have quite caught on to the possibility that these are "the baddies."

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Can certainly understand why the Lab would prefer to stay out of that sort of controversy. Ban them and then there would be questions about other groups that have similar ideas but in a different way that are considered politically correct nonetheless. Ideologies with historical genocidal tendencies, were not just the hallmark of one group only.

Probably off topic anyway from what the OP intended the thread to be about.

Were they responsible for an unequivocal genocide? Then I have no problems with it.

Someone erected a statue of Lenin a while ago at my group parcel. I removed it without hesitation. If I knew of anyone who venerated Stalin in my groups, I'd boot them in a moment.

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Were they responsible for an unequivocal genocide? Then I have no problems with it.

Someone erected a statue of Lenin a while ago at my group parcel. I removed it without hesitation. If I knew of anyone who venerated Stalin in my groups, I'd boot them in a moment.

So we are going from spelling nazi's to grammar nazi's to group nazi's? At what point do we become what was being objected to in the first place?

Popper in his Paradox of Intolerance stated: In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise.

Are we past the point of rational argument against such groups and now need to rely on their suppression and banning?