Is it "okay" to create an avatar in a race you are not in RL?

[Ceka Cianci]

I would say, be creative and live by your own rules. The real world as well as virtual worlds will try to put rules on you to live by that aren't written in the rules.. Don't let anyone guide your imagination in any direction or restrict it in any way unless it feels like inspiration. Otherwise you might as well ask for permission for everything you do or just go get pre-made things..

The way to be as original as you can is,  open up the flood gates of your imagination and let it flow with ideas and directions you choose. Don't let anyone else restrict your imagination or put up little dams along it's way.. One of the great things about this world is, a lot of it is built to journey your mind without restrictions.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

Not sure if I missed it in this thread, but one approach is do have an "Alt" (a different avatar) be the "other race".

That's what I did, but gave the Alt essentially the same name as mine so people know it's "me".

 

[Janet Voxel]

1 hour ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:much, Katherine! 

Sometimes, people just create what they think we look like through their own lens. 

That part! I just don’t want it to turn into someone thinking….you know what I’m saying? I know you do.

So with that, I’m going to bow out!

 

[Psyche Starling]

5 hours ago, Amberyl Ethaniel said:

 

I'm not roleplaying her or using her as a person to run around SL with and interact..I mean, there's no way(at least I don't think) someone of one race could believably be another, especially when speaking to someone who is, in RL that ethnicity..

I don't wanna dig the hole deeper, so..I thank you for your input and will consider what you and others have said..

 

Yeah, when I'm out socializing or RPing, I play an idealized version of myself with my real ethnic background. Sometimes to model things I'll break out other skins, etc. that I've picked up over the years. I don't want all my model pics to look like regular-me, so some of them are my own race but with different features and coloring, and some are not my own race.

[Aiyumei]

I always find it weird when people expect our virtual look and gender to match our real one. We are in a digital world with possibly the largest community driven economy and content where we can be pretty much anything we imagine only to have someone expect us to verify we have "vagene".

[Istelathis]

55 minutes ago, Aiyumei said:

I always find it weird when people expect our virtual look and gender to match our real one. We are in a digital world with possibly the largest community driven economy and content where we can be pretty much anything we imagine only to have someone expect us to verify we have "vagene".

People can get pretty weird about it all, I mean, when others do not want to participate in the system we have divided one another with.  If you are born one race, you have to stay confined to that race otherwise the entire system breaks down and well, that can not be good because it is a system that modern society relies on.  Same thing with gender, people rely on these to form some sort of order to their world and if people start breaking down these boundaries everything starts to fall apart.

I find the topic to be interesting, especially what is often called transracial, where one person in RL undergoes surgeries to change their appearance to match another race and takes on the identity of that race.  It is fascinating just how out of sorts others get over it, and then how it is used for an entire argument against trans in general.  My own views are that we all should just abandon identities based upon such broad terms such as race, gender, nationality, etc, and live on our own terms.  Such individualistic anarchy is not supported by most people, I assume because it disrupts the way we organize ourselves.  Yet, when we confine such identities and try to define them, we are often met with a stupor because of just how broad and ambiguous they are to begin with.  What exactly is a white person?  What exactly is a man?  Outside of physical traits, which can already to some extent be changed, there really is no set definition because there is such a huge variety in individuality that none can really be neatly organized to say for certain.  I imagine in the future such physical traits will only be able to be manipulated further, and the current arguments we see imposed on what constitutes as a definition based upon physical traits only become harder to hold on to.

I think people simply would find it awkward to live in such a world, where our identities no longer were confined in easily digestible bites.

I've gotten to the point to where I think it is just a bunch of foolishness now, and ultimately after much thought have found the idea of identity built upon the concept of expectations that people hold on race, gender, religion, or anything really has become entirely pointless.  Trying to push a narrative that "all men behave a certain way" or "all people of a certain color behave a certain way", always tend to be wrong in my opinion.

In a virtual world, where people can express themselves as they so please, it is certain to drive many people absolutely bonkers where physical traits are easily changed.  They have to hold on to real life physical traits to back up the virtual one, or their entire world falls apart.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Istelathis

[Dorientje Woller]

This is how I run around now in SL, while I am a red headed, pale skinned petite in RL. Nobody or no one has ever asked me in world what race I am in RL.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Dorientje Woller

[Lewis Luminos]

56 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

"all people of a certain color behave a certain way", always tend to be wrong in my opinion.

This. Absolutely.  

You know, when white people scream "cultural appropriation", what they are really saying is "only white people stuff is good enough for white people". And you know what "-ism" that is.

The only people who have the right to claim cultural appropriation are the people whose culture is being appropriated.  For example, I know that indigenous American people get really ticked off when white people wear ceremonial tribal dress without understanding it's traditional meaning.  So maybe don't wear that. But Indian people are generally the opposite; they love to share their cultural dress with others.

When deciding what to wear when deciding to represent another culture, whether that's in SL or RL, listen to people who belong to that culture and hear their opinions. 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Lewis Luminos

[pizza7]

On 4/11/2023 at 7:15 PM, Amberyl Ethaniel said:

Thanks to everyone who answered my question and in the way you did. I was actually expecting worse..bottom line, I love playing Barbie and taking pictures and I just haven't ventured out too far beyond my normal avs looks. Ready to discover new shops and support some SL creators I didn't know about before!

you can also try and make yourself the cutest dog, horse etc hehe

[Ayashe Ninetails]

4 hours ago, Lewis Luminos said:

When deciding what to wear when deciding to represent another culture, whether that's in SL or RL, listen to people who belong to that culture and hear their opinions. 

This almost never happens. Not in my personal experience, anyway.

I knew someone a long time ago who'd use me as a tanning guide. She'd straight up grab my arm to compare every few days and cheer as she got closer. I always found it obnoxious that she wanted the color, but none of the challenges I faced daily sporting it myself - including getting called names in public, being followed through stores, and far worse (things done to my home, etc.). But since I'm a pacifist, I only thought about slapping her into Tuesday. Everything else was in one ear and out the other.

Nobody ever wants to hear my real views on this, so when these things come up in RL or even SL, I just smile and nod, pass on a few helpful links/tips, and go back to sipping my tea.

[Katherine Heartsong]

59 minutes ago, pizza7 said:

you can also try and make yourself the cutest dog, horse etc hehe

There is no "try" ...

Edited April 13, 2023 by Katherine Heartsong

[Coffee Pancake]

It's impossible to roleplay a minority culture or ethnicity without it being a weird stereotype, especially on a platform where sexualized raceplay founded entirely on the fetishization of specific minority stereotypes exists, in quantity, with significant vendor support.

This isn't about cultural appropriation, we're way past that in SL. If it wasn't for 'benefit of the doubt protection' offered by anonymity and separation of RL identity, I very much doubt playing across culture or ethnic lines would be even slightly tolerated.

There is a lot that goes on in SL that is simply flat out, inexcusably, racist.

But you can be anything or anyone you like here, shhhh .. because that makes it all ok.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Coffee Pancake

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It's impossible to roleplay a minority culture or ethnicity without it being a weird stereotype, especially on a platform where sexualized raceplay founded entirely on the fetishization of specific minority stereotypes exists in quantity with significant vendor support.

This isn't about cultural appropriation, we're way past that in SL. If it wasn't for 'benefit of the doubt protection' offered by anonymity and separation of RL identity I very much doubt playing across culture or ethnic lines would be even slightly tolerated.

There is a lot that goes on in SL that is simply flat out, inexcusably, racist.

But you can be anything or anyone you like here, shhhh .. because that makes it all ok.

Some of us - like me - use a different avatar of a different race, NOT as roleplay and NOT as sexual fetishism. Kind of like, oh gee - I'm not a lion in "real life". It doesn't mean I use my lion avatars for either roleplay for sexual fetishism (ewww).

I can't imaging using LoveX that way. Eww.

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Coffee Pancake]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Some of us - like me - use a different avatar of a different race, NOT as roleplay and NOT as sexual fetishism.

I can't imaging using LoveX that way. Eww.

But isn't it a concern that you might be broadly perceived as such, by people on "both sides".

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Coffee Pancake said:

But isn't it a concern that you might be broadly perceived as such, by people on "both sides".

If they judge me and tell me, I'll deal with it. 

If they don't tell me they are judging me, then yay!  There is a saying I like more lately, "what you think of me is none of my business".  

Sure, I have and will again someday use a lion avatar for cuddles. But it sure is not my raison d'etre.

I just have no desire to use LoveX for anything besides modeling / being a "Barbie", testing, pictures, etc.  That could change, who knows.

Irony: Anyone judging someone else in Second Life for their avatar choices, is 90% likely not using an avatar that looks like them in Real  / First Life.

[Rowan Amore]

4 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

But isn't it a concern that you might be broadly perceived as such, by people on "both sides".

Why would anyone care what anonymous people on the internet think?  Frankly, no one's opinion aside from those you choose to ask should matter.  Your (general your) opinion of me matters not.  Not one bit.  There are exactly 3 people on SL whose opinion matters to me.  

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Why would anyone care what anonymous people on the internet think?  Frankly, no one's opinion aside from those you choose to ask should matter.  Your (general your) opinion of me matters not.  Not one bit.  There are exactly 3 people on SL whose opinion matters to me.  

I like you, even if it doesn't matter!

[Rowan Amore]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

I like you, even if it doesn't matter!

I like you, too.  😉

[Katherine Heartsong]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It's impossible to roleplay a minority culture or ethnicity without it being a weird stereotype, especially on a platform where sexualized raceplay founded entirely on the fetishization of specific minority stereotypes exists, in quantity, with significant vendor support.

This isn't about cultural appropriation, we're way past that in SL. If it wasn't for 'benefit of the doubt protection' offered by anonymity and separation of RL identity, I very much doubt playing across culture or ethnic lines would be even slightly tolerated.

There is a lot that goes on in SL that is simply flat out, inexcusably, racist.

But you can be anything or anyone you like here, shhhh .. because that makes it all ok.

While I broadly agree, and certainly am 100% aware of the more highly stereotyped race play sexualization and fetishism that is all over SL without even trying to look hard for it (from clothing to clubs to tattoos to groups), I always wonder with this sort of argument that if we replaced the terms race/ethnicity with either definitions of gender, orientation, or religion, would it still be okay or not?

There is a lot that goes on in SL that is simply flat out, inexcusably, trans- and homo-phobic or highly bigoted without question.

But if we doubt after removing that anonymity that SL provides, are we not allowed to let someone to explore their gender or sexual identities or questions with avatars that don't match their RL sex/gender?

We seem to tolerate that issue better than ethnicity here, even though we know that the same sorts of fetishization exists in some of these groups and communities of players in SL, as well as the deception and catfishing some of my fellow "girls" engage in for their own reasons, so I wonder where we draw a line, or how blurry and wide that line can be, both for gender/sex but also race/ethnicity.

And does the term roleplay versus "live" offer any help? I'd like to think I'm not roleplaying (which to me implies "acting a part") being a cis-female in SL, but I know many do not agree with me or that way of defining being a woman in SL when not in RL.

I haven't said any of this well, you and others I admire are far more eloquent than I am, but hope I am clear enough?

Edited April 13, 2023 by Katherine Heartsong

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Irony: Anyone judging someone else in Second Life for their avatar choices, is 90% likely not using an avatar that looks like them in Real  / First Life.

Almost none of us look like our avatars (although given unlimited money I'm sure plenty of us would like to try), but that's not the point or the specific question being asked in this thread.

If it wasn't a valid concern, it wouldn't keep coming up .. (although admittedly not as often as people wondering about playing across gender lines).

[Katherine Heartsong]

8 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I like you, even if it doesn't matter!

7 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I like you, too.  😉

Oh get a room, you two.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

If it wasn't a valid concern, it wouldn't keep coming up .. (although admittedly not as often as people wondering about playing across gender lines).

It is sad that if someone says, "I would like to get advice on 'playing' Second Life with an avatar as a black woman", the answer is "TELL US WHY?!?!?!?".  So often, assuming ill intent.  

It's not like people are saying, "I want to work at a Southern Plantation as a black woman", etc. Which we HAVE seen.

Nobody is saying the concerns are not valid.  For my part, I guess I am saying that the "elevation" of the concerns can be disconcerting when no specific cause is given to be concerned.  

Is similar concern being given every time someone wants to play the "other gender"? I do not think so. With all of the catfishing, I think people often assume that someone is not the RL gender they present as in Second Life, and move on. 

[Amberyl Ethaniel]

2 hours ago, pizza7 said:

you can also try and make yourself the cutest dog, horse etc hehe

I could..if I were going to roleplay or represent myself in SL. I bet that would be fun. However, I just had some art pieces in my head, and looks that my normal avatar can't pull off.I really like taking pics and posting on Flickr..

[Love Zhaoying]

I am peeved, so am bowing out from this thread. 🙂 

[Amberyl Ethaniel]

31 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It's impossible to roleplay a minority culture or ethnicity without it being a weird stereotype, especially on a platform where sexualized raceplay founded entirely on the fetishization of specific minority stereotypes exists, in quantity, with significant vendor support.

This isn't about cultural appropriation, we're way past that in SL. If it wasn't for 'benefit of the doubt protection' offered by anonymity and separation of RL identity, I very much doubt playing across culture or ethnic lines would be even slightly tolerated.

There is a lot that goes on in SL that is simply flat out, inexcusably, racist.

But you can be anything or anyone you like here, shhhh .. because that makes it all ok.

I agree with you 100%, I would never try to roleplay another race (although many do) or make friends..doing this strictly because I find many of the skins/accessories/looks to be beautiful. I spend the bulk of my time in SL shopping, taking pics and exploring..