New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion

[EliseAnne85]

3 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

What others would want with that data is really left to the imagination, perhaps to stalk others, to build huge lists of avatars and provide a service on the web, who knows?

I meant to write it hypothetically speaking, what would you do with my data?   By, you, I meant a hypothetical YOU.  

I was just wondering what someone might want with profile data if not to stalk or set up blackmail via spying on yours or my significant other, not that you or I have a significant other, this is hypothetically speaking.  

There are good reasons possibly also someone might want to scrape data but I'd think it's some kind of way to make money.  Still, I can't think of anything specific on what is sellable about my data if the scraping doesn't involve an IM.  

[Rowan Amore]

[Istelathis]

26 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

There are good reasons possibly also someone might want to scrape data but I'd think it's some kind of way to make money.  Still, I can't think of anything specific on what is sellable about my data if the scraping doesn't involve an IM.  

I wrote a suggestion several pages back, where there should be a bot registry and people should have a default option on their own avatars to more or less be invisible from bots.  I'm frankly surprised we don't see bots IM us from a distance, considering just how easy it would be to do though.  For example, if I were to keep my draw distance at 1024 I can start sending out IM after IM to everyone listed in that distance from me, for a bot registered or not, they would still have access to your avatar to be able to IM you even if they were not allowed on your parcel. 

Having the option just to not appear at all to the registered bot would make it a lot more difficult for them, even if they managed to have the viewer do all of the work for them rather than a script.  I further think it would be a good idea for LL to internalize most of the functions bots can perform, and host an NPC service to perform it instead, because in doing so it gives LL much more control over bots in general.

 

 

[Caeruleiae]

2 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Then, we could have sellers all over MP and elsewhere selling security orbs at gawd knows what prices.  Yeah sure, like what 1200 linden security orb made with a free LSL script to deny_bots popping up everywhere or anywhere selling on MP or inworld.  No thanks!  

You mean the same way countless other products-including security gadgets and lots of other things-that people sell that people could make themselves if they wanted or had the scripting knowledge or used one of the countless different scripting examples already out there since the inception of scripting in sl began?

You're being a bit paranoid about this now-I think. If someone wanted to create a product like this-they would. If they wanted to sell it-people would buy it. That the script or ability itself exists somewhere free won't change this anymore than it changes what we already have available to us. Some might buy it simply because it's a  convenience to do it. Just like they buy other things they could probably make themselves-if they had the ability-or might even be able to get cheaper-if they looked. Commerce isn't determined the way you think it should be. No one says you would have to buy it if you don't want to. 

I just made myself a new gadget in sl today-well I tried it's not done yet. I could buy it from someone else if I wanted but I wanted to try my hand at making it using the same scripts they probably use and probably got for free themselves-with or without some modifications. I may end up still buying it if I can't get mine to work-and I won't complain about them getting the script or idea somewhere else free and then selling it. More power to them!

[EliseAnne85]

11 minutes ago, Caeruleiae said:

You're being a bit paranoid about this now-I think. If someone wanted to create a product like this-they would. If they wanted to sell it-people would buy it. That the script or ability itself exists somewhere free won't change this anymore than it changes what we already have available to us. Some might buy it simply because it's a  convenience to do it. 

I don't know, I think you are arguing just to argue.

What is your counterpoint about a bot invasion that then people would have to buy bot protection from in a security orb?  How is that not a scam?  

And, btw, to use an example, the Bloodlines garlic necklace has almost always been free or near free, maybe 10 L.  If people don't want to be bothered by Bloodlines, at least they have allowed it to be near free to have a protection (garlic necklace).

Edited April 6, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Caeruleiae]

3 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I don't know, I think you are arguing just to argue.

Not even close and that as an unnecessary comment.

3 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

What is your counterpoint about a bot invasion that then people would have to buy bot protection from in a security orb?  How is that not a scam?

Where on earth did you get the idea that I think that? I said nothing of the sort. All I commented on was your belief that people shouldn't be able to sell security gadgets that include the deny_bot flag -if such products were ever created since we are talking in hypotheticals here-and that those products and scripts or whatever should just be free to all. My counterpoint to that topic-since it's what I actually commented on-is that we have a lot of products that are created from or with various free resources and scripts that people will happily buy for whatever reason at whatever price points they deem they're willing to pay. Nothing in any of my comments has mentioned even once saying that people will have to buy anything or that they eve have to put up with any kind of bot invasion.

6 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

And, btw, to use an example, the Bloodlines garlic necklace has almost always been free or near free, maybe 10 L.  If people don't want to be bothered by Bloodlines, at least they have allowed it to be near free to have a protection (garlic necklace).

And if they had chosen not to make it free-people would have bought it or perhaps someone else would have created such a product and released it either free or at some cost.

I never suggested people had to sell products-I simply said they already do and would certainly not be in the wrong in the future if they chose to continue to do so. Please read comments a little more carefully in the future. 

[EliseAnne85]

2 minutes ago, Caeruleiae said:

Not even close and that as an unnecessary comment.

Where on earth did you get the idea that I think that? I said nothing of the sort. All I commented on was your belief that people shouldn't be able to sell security gadgets that include the deny_bot flag -if such products were ever created  Please read comments a little more carefully in the future. 

🙄

[Ceka Cianci]

18 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I don't know, I think you are arguing just to argue.

What is your counterpoint about a bot invasion that then people would have to buy bot protection from in a security orb?  How is that not a scam?  

And, btw, to use an example, the Bloodlines garlic necklace has almost always been free or near free, maybe 10 L.  If people don't want to be bothered by Bloodlines, at least they have allowed it to be near free to have a protection (garlic necklace).

hehehe I remember every once in awhile a random Vamp would IM me asking me if they wanted to complete something or another.. That I was stuck at ghoul and looked like a ghoul to them..

I remember asking one of them, Do I look pretty gross.. He said ya you look pretty bad..

I said, Good, maybe I'll make a few sick enough to puke..

 

I don't even remember ever getting bit, but I never let that whole thing bother me.. Not enough to feel I had to go and get something to take something off that I never played..

I think all they ever really had was your name on their database..  I remember that bothered the hell out of a lot of people..

My names been on worse.. hehehe

 

[EliseAnne85]

41 minutes ago, Caeruleiae said:

Some might buy it simply because it's a  convenience to do it. Just like they buy other things they could probably make themselves-if they had the ability-or might even be able to get cheaper-if they looked. Commerce isn't determined the way you think it should be. No one says you would have to buy it if you don't want to. 

I just made myself a new gadget in sl today-well I tried it's not done yet. I could buy it from someone else if I wanted but I wanted to try my hand at making it using the same scripts they probably use and probably got for free themselves-with or without some modifications. I may end up still buying it if I can't get mine to work-and I won't complain about them getting the script or idea somewhere else free and then selling it. More power to them!

This is not about free scripts.  Free scripts are free scripts one can make all kinds of things with free scripts.  

You are saying free scripts for stuff people don't necessarily need.

Using Bloodlines as my example of the garlic necklace shows that the garlic necklace is a need if you don't want to be bothered by Bloodlines.  It would be the same need for a security orb to protect one's self from bots coming in their home or whatever.  And, then the next bots come along and one needs to buy a security orb to protect one's self from those bots, and so on and so on and so on.  That's a scam.  Creating a nuisance and then making people pay to stop it.

Edited April 6, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Solar Legion]

Oh for ...

Enough with the absurdities. All of them.

[EliseAnne85]

4 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Oh for ...

Enough with the absurdities. All of them.

I don't think it's as absurd as you think as I have been thinking about this for weeks.   What if these bots set this up so we will have to buy some kind of security orb.

And, irony of ironies, I wasn't the one who brought it up.  Someone else did.  It's an open door to a scam.  

But, I don't have much further to say at this time about it.  

[Solar Legion]

Just now, EliseAnne85 said:

I don't think it's as absurd as you think as I have been thinking about this for weeks.   What if these bots set this up so we will have to buy some kind of security orb.

And, irony of ironies, I wasn't the one who brought it up.  Someone else did.  It's an open door to a scam.  

But, I don't have much further to say at this time about it.  

It is indeed, absurd.

By the "logic" presented, all security systems everywhere (be they SL or RL) are scams. All of them. No exceptions.

Yes, that is exactly how it is coming across.

Welcome to life. Navigate it.

[Caeruleiae]

2 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

This is not about free scripts.  Free scripts are free scripts one can make all kinds of things with free scripts.  

You are saying free scripts for stuff people don't necessarily need.

No I'm not don't put words into my posts I didn't put there. 

2 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Using Bloodlines as my example of the garlic necklace shows that the garlic necklace is a need if you don't want to be bothered by Bloodlines. 

It is absolutely not a need. No one needs it. People desired it because bloodlines people got annoying and the creator thought this would be a valid solution instead of changing how things work. I don't have one. I know a lot of people who don't have one. We are not bothered by bloodlines players. I have had people try to bite-but it's pretty easy to just ignore them. It's not a need.

2 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

It would be the same need for a security orb to protect one's self from bots coming in their home or whatever.  And, then the next bots come along and one needs to buy a security orb to protect one's self from those bots, and so on and so on and so on.  That's a scam.  Creating a nuisance and then making people pay to stop it.

Where in an of my posts did I suggest such a thing? Please go ahead and find it or at least explain where you got the idea-because I have no clue where you're getting this from. I literally commented on something you said about people selling security systems with this built in anti_bot thing-which again is a hypothetical since no such product or even need at this time exists. I specifically addressed the point you made about them selling it. I didn't address anything that had to do with the bots themselves or the bots creators being responsible for making people buy some product. I think you misunderstood something along the way. At least I hope that's the case-because otherwise I really don't understand this conversation at all-and I don't believe anyone else will either. Since I didn't say any of the things you seem to think I said. 

I commented about sales of products-that's it just sales based off a resource you desire to be free. I merely pointed out that various resources people use to create all kinds of products in sl are resources they are given or find free-and they sell the end products. I am not suggesting that in any way bot owners or creators are somehow going to create not only the problem but also some hypothetical system that people will need to buy to protect themselves from the problem. I'm not a fan of the bots-I've never defended them or their creators. I used the word paranoid because you are making scenarios up that I did not describe-let alone condone. 

 

[Rick Nightingale]

10 minutes ago, Caeruleiae said:

We are not bothered by bloodlines players. I have had people try to bite-but it's pretty easy to just ignore them. It's not a need.

The phrase "go and stake yourself" always worked for me. I was one of those who refused the neckalce because it put my name on a database. Opt-in... not opt-out is my battle cry. Well, actually it's "Arrrhhhoooogaaahhh"

[Love Zhaoying]

So, maybe we need garlic necklaces to protect us from bot scanning since we can't deny bots access on our region parcels? Mainland bots are the new Bloodlines! 

[Rick Nightingale]

Isn't it silver for bots?

Or is that werewolves?

So many genres... so many stereotypes... so much confusion!

[Istelathis]

What we need is more bots, bots that will scan for unregistered bots and AR them.  They will roam the grid, in pursuit of the renegade bots.  I just hope that the renegade bots do not create more bots to AR the AR bots, for misusing the AR feature.. because then we will need more bots to AR the bots reporting the AR bots.  

[Alwin Alcott]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

 Mainland bots are the new Bloodlines! 

it are the Borgs in disguise... resistance is futile

Edited April 6, 2023 by Alwin Alcott

[Love Zhaoying]

I am finally integrating / synthesizing the different issues with Mainland vs. Private Regions and the new functionality. Let me know if this sounds correct or if I am wrong in some ways.

a) Since there are LSL functions that allow scanning from other parcels and other nearby regions, merely denying entry into a parcel will not prevent scripted agents from scanning data in a parcel.

b) Unless the new "deny Region entry to Scripted Agents" feature also prevents Scripted Agents from using the same  LSL functions from neighboring regions, denying entry to a Region would not prevent Scripted Agents from collecting data on mainland Regions with the new settings.

c) The new "deny access to Scripted Agents" feature works for Private Regions because there is no way to scan / use the LSL functions that collect data from "Neighboring" Regions, because they are "Private".

d) "Modified viewers" / "scraping" directly from viewers is completely outside of this new functionality, and in fact is completely irrelevant to Scripted Agents.

e) The above a),  b) and c) are PART of why "deny entry to Scripted Agents for Estates" only applies to Private Regions and the entirety of Bellisseria: denying entry would not prevent any data collection, at all. Bellisseria, being a collective of Regions as a "continent", assumedly does not include the possibility of using the LSL "scanning" functions from neighboring non-Belliseria Regions.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Love Zhaoying
Added caveat "PART"

[Aethelwine]

On 3/30/2023 at 8:50 PM, Jennifer Boyle said:

I think you are confusing two different things: Accounts that are operated by computer programs and, which, therefore, meet LL's definition of bots, and accounts that are logged in by human operators who are usually AFK. The latter do not meet LL's definition of bot.

I guess we mainland-dwellers are second-class citizens. I cannot imagine that enabling it at the parcel level would have been substantially harder. The code should be very similar.

On the other hand, I never understood why people had their panties in a wad about information-gathering bots like bonniebots. As Facebook told me years ago when they closed my account, SL avatars are fictional characters. As such, we have no need to keep information about ourselves private. The human account owner is who needs to safeguard private information, and the way to do that in SL is to not leak any information that connects them to the avatar. Bots have no access to information about the account owner.

I think the information at bonniebots.com is interesting and useful, and I frequently look at it. I just don't get why anyone would object to it or want to impede its gathering and publication, other than that there is nothing somebody won't object to.

I hadn't heard of bonniebots before the information they gather doesn't seem all that useful to me, but it has got me thinking of useful uses for bots. Beyond my ability or inclination but I can see a use for mapping parcel security settings across mainland to help the flying community and other travellers. I would have thought the Linden's would run some bots themselves to gather data to inform policy decisions.

[Cain Maven]

On 3/30/2023 at 8:57 PM, Alwin Alcott said:

not sure if it changed a lot last decade, but in the past copybots were not scripted agents. It were (are?) users on modified viewers.

Sorry about the extremely late response. I know that used to be the case but these days I'm not so sure -- it seems you can almost set your watch by some of the bots that swing by my regions.

[Istelathis]

58 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

I hadn't heard of bonniebots before the information they gather doesn't seem all that useful to me, but it has got me thinking of useful uses for bots. 

It is an interesting topic, and I imagine a reason why so many people are seeing more bots on the grid than they previously had.  People are curious, and some are probably building bots for the fun of it at this point.

[Alwin Alcott]

1 hour ago, Cain Maven said:

Sorry about the extremely late response. I know that used to be the case but these days I'm not so sure -- it seems you can almost set your watch by some of the bots that swing by my regions.

i know a little about the( old) botting, because it's a exploit of a old feature.. but if the system didn't change a lot, there's for modern stuff not much to gain. It wasn't able to copy scripts and rigging.
For many years there was, or is (?) a little cache tool available that ripped all textures within drawdistance .. the old layered clothes, skins etc.. were all totally unprotected from that.

There's nothing new  but to be honest it was quite some years ago i seen copied items pop up. What is a bigger source of copies these days is caused by  "creators" buy items on pre made mesh sites.

[Phil Deakins]

2 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

[...] but I can see a use for mapping parcel security settings across mainland to help the flying community and other travellers. I would have thought the Linden's would run some bots themselves to gather data to inform policy decisions.

I think the mapping of parcels with ban lines is already done, and was even discussed in this thread. And, unless I was mistaken a long time ago, LL used to run bots to collect data in sims. I'm remembering one that looked like a box.

[Sid Nagy]

...

Edited April 6, 2023 by Sid Nagy
Second thoughts