"Centralized Hubs"

[Zalificent Corvinus]

7 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

This map of the S/L grid with the various continents shows Private regions/estates adjacent to each other and the tiny patches being just private islands, so it appears a Private Region is not necessarily just a one of in the middle of a non contiguous sea but can also be a part of a contiguous land mass/continent other than the Mainland.

• Want to build and control a Second Life experience with or without adjacent neighbors. 

 

Feel free to continue handwaving.

 

 

If...

If you can find a Mainland Continent sized, multi hundred region Private Estate Island... Do please show it to us.

Until then take your fake "research skills" and reality hating nonsense someplace else...

/me "handwaves" at your failed victory's back as it ignominiously retreats to the Conspiracy Bunker to lick it's wounds and sulk...

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Zalificent

[Rowan Amore]

The Fruit Islands are a massive grouping of Private estates with sailable water between.  They are not connected to mainland.  There are several.other large groups with multiple estates.  None of these are mainland or considered continents.  

ETA.  Large groupings of private islands might be considered a micro continent but is still not the same as mainland.  

Edited December 25, 2022 by Rowan Amore

[Arielle Popstar]

9 minutes ago, Zalificent said:

If...

If you can find a Mainland Continent sized, multi hundred region Private Estate Island... Do please show it to us.

Until then take your fake "research skills" and reality hating nonsense someplace else...

/me "handwaves" at your failed victory's back as it ignominiously retreats to the Conspiracy Bunker to lick it's wounds and sulk...

 

No need to find an equivalent sized continent, the fact that there are apparently 20+ continents says enough. A continent by its very definition is some quantity of land mass, not necessarily a sea of individual and disconnected Private Estates as some are trying to imply.

6 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

The Fruit Islands are a massive grouping of Private estates with sailable water between.  They are not connected to mainland.  There are several.other large groups with multiple estates.  None of these are mainland or considered continents.  

Whatever, back to your original posts, most S/L residents are not aware of what continent they are on, like many probably even within this forum as I suspect few realized how many continents there actually are besides me. And secondly, there is no way from the map that one can tell what continent they are on from it alone.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

On 12/23/2022 at 10:32 PM, Rowan Amore said:

You can easily look at the map and see you aren't on mainland.

 

4 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Feel free to point out how I would know that because I see nothing on the map that tells me what continent I'm on or where the other continents are.

 

3 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Seriously?  All those little dots out in the water are private regions.  The large land mass is mainland.  You honestly don't know this?  Never wondered why you can't sail off private islands?

 

2 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Yes seriously

 

1 hour ago, Zalificent said:

If you can't tell that the yellow dot isn't on one of the BIG patches of land, then the "research skills" that you boast about using in all your posts are literally not worth a damn...

 

15 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Whatever, back to your original posts, most S/L residents are not aware of what continent they are on, like many probably even within this forum as I suspect few realized how many continents there actually are besides me. And secondly, there is no way from the map that one can tell what continent they are on from it alone.

 

If your ability to research what "most S/L residents know or care about" is as feeble s your ability to research where the yellow dot showing your location is on the map, then frankly I'd rate your statements as "worthless trash"...

 

And that's being generous because it's the Giving Season...

Ho! Ho! Ho!

Edited December 25, 2022 by Zalificent

[Rowan Amore]

4 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

most S/L residents are not aware of what continent they are on

Mostly because they're on a private estate and not a mainland continent.  

About 5000 of the regions are directly managed by Linden Lab, Those are referred to as the "Mainland", and are grouped mostly into 7 large continents, and two small ones. The rest are managed by the "Estate Owners" who bought them. An estate can be any number of regions - 1 to hundreds. When it's one or a small number of regions separated by void regions from anyone else, it also also known as a 'private island'.

The above is from 2015 so doesn't include the newer Belli regions although they are somewhat different than actual mainland where it's A free for all.   

Edited December 25, 2022 by Rowan Amore

[HeathcliffMontague]

On 12/23/2022 at 10:57 PM, Arielle Popstar said:

Most of S/L couldn't give a flying fig what continent they are on as long as what they are searching for is where it is supposed to be.

This is so true. Think back to when you were new.  I rode a motorbike all around most of Mainland without even knowing I was on Mainland.

Took an Irish angel (she's Irish and had an angel avi at the time) to land in front of me when I took a break and explain all the differences to me.

Ah, the glory of being new...

[diamond Marchant]

On 12/24/2022 at 3:57 PM, Arielle Popstar said:

On 12/24/2022 at 3:46 PM, Rowan Amore said:

 

Whatever, back to your original posts, most S/L residents are not aware of what continent they are on, like many probably even within this forum as I suspect few realized how many continents there actually are besides me. And secondly, there is no way from the map that one can tell what continent they are on from it alone.

For residents who travel about in vehicles, mainland+Bellisseria is EVERYTHING. It means thousands of contiguous regions that we can traverse. We KNOW when we are there. The best thing the Moles did in 2022 (for me) was connecting the protected waters of Bellisseria to Satori at Stromberg. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Edited December 26, 2022 by diamond Marchant

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

On 12/23/2022 at 12:55 PM, diamond Marchant said:

My opinion is that centralized "hubs" would have unintended consequences. As Lindens would be allocating resources, it would be perceived as favoritism towards any community that received a hub.

This has definitely been the case in the past when LL tried similar things but at some point i think a business has to think about whats best for business, which is in this case new user retention, and just get on with it. 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Ingrid Ingersoll

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

On 12/23/2022 at 3:49 PM, Coffee Pancake said:

The fastest way to create more abandoned mainland is to put a hub on the region next door.

Nope nope nope.

When the telehubs were still around, land next to them was always riduculously expensive . People put their stores next to the telehubs for visibility/traffic.

[Theresa Tennyson]

On 12/23/2022 at 4:57 PM, Arielle Popstar said:

Where you get that idea? Most people haven't a clue what continent they are on because it isn't stated anywhere that I know of when jumping from place to place. It was only by asking a friend who had a house i seen mentioned in the forums that I had an idea i might have been in  in Bellisera, it was only because Animats mentioned a specific region in Zindra and I went there that I know I have actually been on Zindra. Most of S/L couldn't give a flying fig what continent they are on as long as what they are searching for is where it is supposed to be.

If you click on "About land" where you are, you'll be told whether you're on "Mainland" (Mainland) or an "Estate" (private ownership.) Continents are meaningless. As, in fact, they are in real life.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Theresa Tennyson

[Theresa Tennyson]

On 12/23/2022 at 3:49 PM, Coffee Pancake said:

The fastest way to create more abandoned mainland is to put a hub on the region next door.

Nope nope nope.

Where has it been established that a "hub" will be an in-world "place" at all?

[Coffee Pancake]

5 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Where has it been established that a "hub" will be an in-world "place" at all?

because LL only have one box of paints

 

[Qie Niangao]

6 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Where has it been established that a "hub" will be an in-world "place" at all?

Good question. Or if it is an in-world place, what sort of thing would it be to best engage new arrivals with SL communities and activities that match their interests? The thing is, there are already these "Community Hubs" that were supposed to do something like this, so I went to Inara Pey's blog to search for their history, and came upon this in a recent post about this Lab "Review & Preview":

Quote

The centralised hubs is an interesting in terms of its implementation; LL is already revamping the entire “land journey” for users – how to obtain mainland, lease a region from LL directly through to how to find and rent late from private estates – so there is a question here as to whether this new hubs will be hooked into this work, providing a means for users to more easily obtain land and become a part of a community. Or, might it be a means to offer added value to Community Gateways – or even a revamp of Place Pages (which never really took off) to make them more responsive to communities and groups – thus offering both the means to access these new hubs from without SL as well as from within. [emphasis mine]

Although one should never discount the power of the Land product, I'm most interested in that last sentence. I think neither Community Gateways nor Place Pages met expectations, but both were intended to be part of a "funnel" to draw into Second Life folks whose pre-existing external interests match up with SL content, and that would prove "sticky" for retention.

The Lab makes an assumption here (possibly from good market research) that those who hang out in SL long term are those who came in with conscious intent of exploring a specific subject area. That's certainly not how my SL experience started, but that doesn't mean anything.

Certainly new arrivals are apt to exit shortly after getting no satisfactory answer to "so what's to do here?" One approach is to bring them in with their particular answer already fulfilled in the environment where they're predestined to arrive. But for those others who arrive in SL whilst flipping through online experiences as one might flip through streaming services, it would be a win to get a selection of the most winning "shows" presented right up front. That's kinda the role of the Destination Guide, I suppose; but do newbies navigate it that way, at the time they're susceptible to the experiences awaiting them as described there? Maybe.

[Prokofy Neva]

6 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Good question. Or if it is an in-world place, what sort of thing would it be to best engage new arrivals with SL communities and activities that match their interests? The thing is, there are already these "Community Hubs" that were supposed to do something like this, so I went to Inara Pey's blog to search for their history, and came upon this in a recent post about this Lab "Review & Preview":

Although one should never discount the power of the Land product, I'm most interested in that last sentence. I think neither Community Gateways nor Place Pages met expectations, but both were intended to be part of a "funnel" to draw into Second Life folks whose pre-existing external interests match up with SL content, and that would prove "sticky" for retention.

The Lab makes an assumption here (possibly from good market research) that those who hang out in SL long term are those who came in with conscious intent of exploring a specific subject area. That's certainly not how my SL experience started, but that doesn't mean anything.

Certainly new arrivals are apt to exit shortly after getting no satisfactory answer to "so what's to do here?" One approach is to bring them in with their particular answer already fulfilled in the environment where they're predestined to arrive. But for those others who arrive in SL whilst flipping through online experiences as one might flip through streaming services, it would be a win to get a selection of the most winning "shows" presented right up front. That's kinda the role of the Destination Guide, I suppose; but do newbies navigate it that way, at the time they're susceptible to the experiences awaiting them as described there? Maybe.

Even if "Centralized Hubs" only means "pages," those pages still have links to places inworld.

I think Place Pages never got much uptake. Community Gateways function, do they not? They can never be super effective because the ideological binders on the process are too restrictive, but of course, anyone can make their own "funnel" from RL to SL if they've a mind to do so, and some universities have done this.

Helping newbies is work. Relying only on company employees, who are stretched thin, to achieve this is doomed. Relying on unpaid volunteers to do this constantly suffers from the problem of their self-interest and quality control.

Once the Lindens and their main squeezes get over their allergy to commerce, and allow those most motivated to help newbies -- those that have a short-term or long-term financial interest in their business, to help newbies interested in their area or theme, they will see more retention. It's how RL works.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

47 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Once the Lindens and their main squeezes get over their allergy to commerce, and allow those most motivated to help newbies -- those that have a short-term or long-term financial interest in their business, to help newbies interested in their area or theme, they will see more retention. It's how RL works.

While we're on the subject of "ideological blinkers" . . . how do you imagine this working, exactly? What kind of "help" will the merchants be motivated to provide noobs? How to find cool places to visit? How to communicate with IMs or group chat? How to interact with their environment, use animations, activate media? Yeah, no, I think not.

What I foresee is a situation where new residents who have barely learned how not to bounce off walls are funneled to high-end stores where they are immediately confronted with the substantial RL costs of updating their avatars to mesh without having yet been given the slightest indication that there is anything in SL worth paying for. Or, they end up at a clothing store selling garments sized for bodies that they don't own, and described in an arcane language -- "Maitreya? Legacy? LeLutka? What are those?" -- that they don't yet understand. "Why, after dropping real money using my RL credit card, are parts of my body sticking out of this dress?"

Actually, forget for a moment the substantial costs -- head + body + skin + hair + add-ons -- and consider the learning curve -- no, sheer cliff side -- that you are throwing them at. We have people who have been here a decade or more who still don't quite understand the intricacies of mesh, BoM, and attachments -- but you want noobs to master these, again, before they have even had a chance to explore SL and discover what makes that curve worthwhile? I can't even imagine what this will do to retention.

You worry about favouritism and cliquishness, but seem to think that substituting a plutocracy in its place is the answer. The only merchants with the resources to throw at something like this will be the high end ones -- and they aren't producing goods that are of any use to noobs. And in the meantime, you'll be showcasing precisely those stores that don't need your help, and leaving the smaller merchants who don't have the staff, time, or money to get involved high and dry.

Yes, sometimes the private sector does do a better job at things than the public one. But this is a recipe for chaos and disaster.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra
Missing words

[xDancingStarx]

On 12/25/2022 at 12:57 AM, Arielle Popstar said:

Whatever, back to your original posts, most S/L residents are not aware of what continent they are on, like many probably even within this forum

I support this. I know people who've spend years on SL, lots of money, who have put together an awesome looking mesh avatar by themselves, and never heard of the term "mainland" before. People are using SL in many different ways. Just because you've been on SL for years and certain things occur as natural to you, you shouldn't expect the same of others.

Edited December 28, 2022 by xDancingStarx

[cunomar]

When i was new to SL i heard of "the mainland" and figured its a place kids can go and so dismissed it as a place i will never want to go . I still wouldn't know how to find it if i wanted to .

Ironically, there's a good chance i stand permanently on a mainland sim because its rated "moderate" and i haven't been kicked despite most assuming i'm an afk bot for the last 2 years.

[Qie Niangao]

6 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Helping newbies is work. Relying only on company employees, who are stretched thin, to achieve this is doomed. Relying on unpaid volunteers to do this constantly suffers from the problem of their self-interest and quality control.

That's very true. I guess I can imagine some more advanced automated newbie assistance than they get now, but ultimately what will engage new arrivals is human contact, either with each other (fraught) or with a real live person hired for their welcoming personality. And yeah, "hired" by whom? 

I find myself wondering about the economics of Walmart greeters. They must be trained to "scale" to crowd size while remaining a welcoming presence. I wonder if they serve less obvious roles: reduce shrinkage? encourage sales somehow? promote customer civility? (Never mind. Not finding any SL-relevant metaphor here.)

5 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The only merchants with the resources to throw at something like this will be the high end ones -- and they aren't producing goods that are of any use to noobs. And in the meantime, you'll be showcasing precisely those stores that don't need your help, and leaving the smaller merchants who don't have the staff, time, or money to get involved high and dry.

To be honest, I'm not seeing how any SL merchants could make such an endeavor pay for itself, short of outright newbie-fleecing scams.

Perhaps there's some illusion that SL activities (such as railroading, sailing, etc.) or communities (LGBTQ2+, etc) have some centralized commercial interests, but that's never really happened. Sure there are some creators that produce content for those activities, some at a profit, but they're in no position to staff a gateway, not even with volunteers. But as Prokofy mentions, at least some gateways function. (London City has one, right? Why does it work? I don't really understand how London City itself works, but evidently it's very successful. Maybe that's a model for something? Or maybe it could be scaled down from "gateway" to "hub", whatever that would mean.)

[Prokofy Neva]

6 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

While we're on the subject of "ideological blinkers" . . . how do you imagine this working, exactly? What kind of "help" will the merchants be motivated to provide noobs? How to find cool places to visit? How to communicate with IMs or group chat? How to interact with their environment, use animations, activate media? Yeah, no, I think not.

What I foresee is a situation where new residents who have barely learned how not to bounce off walls are funneled to high-end stores where they are immediately confronted with the substantial RL costs of updating their avatars to mesh without having yet been given the slightest indication that there is anything in SL worth paying for. Or, they end up at a clothing store selling garments sized for bodies that they don't own, and described in an arcane language -- "Maitreya? Legacy? LeLutka? What are those?" -- that they don't yet understand. "Why, after dropping real money using my RL credit card, are parts of my body sticking out of this dress?"

Actually, forget for a moment the substantial costs -- head + body + skin + hair + add-ons -- and consider the learning curve -- no, sheer cliff side -- that you are throwing them at. We have people who have been here a decade or more who still don't quite understand the intricacies of mesh, BoM, and attachments -- but you want noobs to master these, again, before they have even had a chance to explore SL and discover what makes that curve worthwhile? I can't even imagine what this will do to retention.

You worry about favouritism and cliquishness, but seem to think that substituting a plutocracy in its place is the answer. The only merchants with the resources to throw at something like this will be the high end ones -- and they aren't producing goods that are of any use to noobs. And in the meantime, you'll be showcasing precisely those stores that don't need your help, and leaving the smaller merchants who don't have the staff, time, or money to get involved high and dry.

Yes, sometimes the private sector does do a better job at things than the public one. But this is a recipe for chaos and disaster.

I don't know why this is such a puzzle! 

Merchants who sell clothes, bodies, vehicles, prefabs, etc. etc.

Many stores have freebies, remember? Or sales. Weekend sales where an entire outfit might cost as low as 50L. 

Again, no need to infantalize and articifially impoverish new people. They aren't RL migrants and refugees. They are people who have Internet access and usually disposable income. They can afford a latte or the price of a movie ticket or a lunch. And they indeed to spend this, as the hordes of videos catering to them that you must never watch on YouTube explain.

There is a lot of competition among merchants of all these wares, and they will compete for newbies as well. Some won't have the staff or won't want to make the effort (for example I would be unlikely to position myself to specifically help newbie renters as it means staff, and I basically don't have any now). 

Clubs of every type, hangouts, activities -- all of these can cater to newbies, help them learn to dance, socialize, etc. A newbie is perfectly capable of buying 1000L for US $4.00 and spending it.

It's only imagined chaos because of the heavy allergy to commerce and preference for collectivism, voluntarism, socialism. The "centralized hubs" will only end up feeding the commerce of the few under the guise of avoiding the alleged tackiness and supposed "predatory nature" of commerce in general. And that's how it has always been.

The miracle of SL is that even though the Lindens hobble commerce; even though oldbies on the forums naysay it, people somehow find their way to buying Lindens and spending them without all the imagined trouble. If it were encouraged instead of discouraged, it would go much better.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

4 hours ago, xDancingStarx said:

I support this. I know people who've spend years on SL, lots of money, who have put together an awesome looking mesh avatar by themselves, and never heard of the term "mainland" before. People are using SL in many different ways. Just because you've been on SL for years and certain things occur as natural to you, you shouldn't expect the same of others.

The Lindens don't label the continents on the inworld maps. They could label them and this problem would go away.

You can get free devices to tell you what continent you are on, for example at Memory Bazaar in Ross.

It's not that vital to know and I can't believe the fuss being made over this here.

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

16 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

because LL only have one box of paints

 

There's a lot of that going around.

[Arielle Popstar]

On 12/28/2022 at 6:48 AM, Prokofy Neva said:

The Lindens don't label the continents on the inworld maps. They could label them and this problem would go away.

You can get free devices to tell you what continent you are on, for example at Memory Bazaar in Ross.

It's not that vital to know and I can't believe the fuss being made over this here.

 

For me it was significant because of seeing there is a definite difference in the loading speed between a Mainland sim and elsewhere. I never realized it before until I had rented a few places on the Mainland and then rented on Private Estates and saw the difference in the speed with changing attachments and outfits as well as how quickly the area would load in general. That difference could well explain why some people come on the forums to complain about lag and general loading slowness while others are saying they see no problem with neither recognizing that there is a difference in performance on where one is. Perhaps part of the problem is the tendency for Mainland Sims to be loaded to the max with prims. I gave up my rental of the last rental on the mainland because of this general slowness in spite of liking both the view and being on the seaside there.

In future rentals, I will be much more careful as to whether it is on the mainland or elsewhere. It is my opinion that many of us who simply rent a house or small parcel are not aware of the performance difference between them simply because of the fact that it is not really advertised what continent or a estate the rental is on.

 

[Qie Niangao]

39 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Perhaps part of the problem is the tendency for Mainland Sims to be loaded to the max with prims.

Open the texture console and I think you'll find your answer. Also, this is really not a Mainland vs Estate thing, it's how many distinct textures have to be loaded to rez a scene. For example, I've never seen a Mainland region load as slowly as the typical avatar- and kiosk-heavy event region on an Estate. The Estate regions that load so very quickly are those owned (or landscaped and populated) by a small group of individuals, pulling from a finite inventory.

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Perhaps part of the problem is the tendency for Mainland Sims to be loaded to the max with prims.

 

It's more likely that it's because the typical Mainland region has neighboring regions on all sides, meaning you're often simultaneously connected to 9 or more regions.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Open the texture console and I think you'll find your answer. Also, this is really not a Mainland vs Estate thing, it's how many distinct textures have to be loaded to rez a scene. For example, I've never seen a Mainland region load as slowly as the typical avatar- and kiosk-heavy event region on an Estate. The Estate regions that load so very quickly are those owned (or landscaped and populated) by a small group of individuals, pulling from a finite inventory.

 

16 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

It's more likely that it's because the typical Mainland region has neighboring regions on all sides, meaning you're often simultaneously connected to 9 or more regions.

I suspect there is something to the differences between mainland and Estates elsewhere as even after the area has loaded and I start trying different hairs because I can never remember which is which, I see a distinct loading time lag depending on where I am, even if there are no other avatars within the region. I'll have to do more testing now I can see what continent or Private estate I am on but having checked the location of the past rentals I had that I gave up because they seemed slow, I don't think my assumption is far off.