New Second Life terms and conditions

[ChinRey]

6 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

*PayPal does it all the time, too

Interesting.

I didn't know that since my PayPal account is at one of their European branches and in a European valuta. Such a clause would of course have been illegal in Europe.

[Ceka Cianci]

That does it, Imma shut mah business down!1

Oh wait, First Imma start a business and then shut it down!

[Kia Kiyori]

20 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Please mr bank sir, may I have the money I overpaid back ... 

 

So .. about that new wow expansion! They have a whole made up economy that allows you to exchange bear ankles for real money!!

Ahhh - a fellow wow player   Haven't come across one of those critters in a while!

[Ceka Cianci]

2 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I've been noting a marked uptick in concurrency (~30%) at one of the main Opensim grids over the past week, which from conversation with a couple of newer accounts was based more on just the news of Tilia being spun off to JPM. The ToS changes will likely result in more yet considering past changes though over the longer term will likely settle back to its usual slower growth.

I remember trying those other grids just to see what they were like.. They always seemed like going back to 2008..

But then again it's been years since I did that.. What SL time period are they at now compared to here? I have no idea anymore what those other ones are like anymore.

[Anna Salyx]

7 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

If LL tells Tilia to withhold any Tilia dollars from a process credit because you may owe those dollars to LL in the future ("pay amounts associated with your use of SL"), then there is no separation.  Tilia follows whatever LL tells them according to the LL TOS. 

I don't read it that way. Just as when I stay in a hotel, the hotel operator may place a hold of up to (in my case) US $200  on my credit card above my agreed upon charge for the length of the stay. Same if I open a tab at a night club, and in some cases buying gasoline with a credit card w/out actually prepaying. That's money I can't use, until either a set time passes or the hotel operator explicitly says "yeah, no, we don't need that."  (In my experience that explicate release of a hold only happens about 50% of the time.)

This does not mean that there is a relationship in place that allows the hotel/club/gas station to tell my bank what to do.  And it's no different here, IMO.  It's LL putting a hold on funds/credit for a given time frame. Tilia would just be honoring a hold request.  It's done all the time with every financial institution that deals with any form of credit processing.

(And, side note:  this is also why I never use a debit card account for any of these things that are not a direct, no wiggle, purchase. I bounced a check once because even though my checking account had plenty of money in it to cover that purchase, the available amount was unbeknownst to much less due to a hold that took a week to expire. That was a week of me checking every day and my bank saying "yeah, you got money, you can't use it.")

 

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Anna Salyx
added final thought.

[Arielle Popstar]

42 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I remember trying those other grids just to see what they were like.. They always seemed like going back to 2008..

But then again it's been years since I did that.. What SL time period are they at now compared to here? I have no idea anymore what those other ones are like anymore.

Really not much different in how one could make a region look or outfit oneself. Plenty of mesh over there. The difference to me is more like what it was like living in downtown Toronto when I was young and then moving to a small town on the outskirts. More room, less clutter and fashions more laid back and conservative vs the high end fashions bordering on fetish like one would see in larger metropolitan areas. I used to equate logging into S/L to go clubbing like a trip to the big city. Nice to place to visit but wouldn't want to live there 😎

[Coffee Pancake]

One thing this is all making abundantly clear. If there ever is a real all encompassing metaverse, it wont have a pretend currency and a singular all powerful payment processing company. The money will just be money.

[EliseAnne85]

12 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

They said that there will be no signing of any TOS but that it is in effect, and if you don't wish to comply, you have to cancel your account by October 31. 

I'm not feeling well and am attempting to read the Tilia TOS again which is not a good combination.  I don't understand the part where it says they need  our address, telephone number, all that blah blah if we don't sign into anything.  Does this mean if I have payment info on file, they already have my age, address, telephone number, etc?  Or is an official give us all your personal data form coming?  Or, will that form be only for cashing out?  Does anyone know?

Edited October 26, 2022 by EliseAnne85

[Chic Aeon]

4 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I've been noting a marked uptick in concurrency (~30%) at one of the main Opensim grids over the past week, which from conversation with a couple of newer accounts was based more on just the news of Tilia being spun off to JPM. The ToS changes will likely result in more yet considering past changes though over the longer term will likely settle back to its usual slower growth.

I had to smile as when I logged in this morning I found a notice from "one of the top OS grids" in my mailbox with a sale of a complete mini-mall. There are plenty of things that do not work in OS but getting your money out from the market is not one of hem. Each week it goes straight to your Paypal account without you doing a thing. THAT WORKS FOR ME :D.    

 

But yes for the most part the general populous will stay although I talked to one high profile OLD content creator who was definitely not happy with all the changes.  You put all that has happened in the last month or so together and the picture gets pretty clear.  We have already lost of ton of "good" content creators and I suspect we will lose more in the next few months as further changes emerge.  Most of the artists that left never returned.

 

So while the numbers of the populous may stay or return or even increase, we will likely have lost a lot of what has made SL a creativity platform that can earn money.   I made my choices years ago and don't regret them so most of this washes over me personally.  I never even used a vendor system. This very much mirrors my real life stance about not going along with the masses LOL.  I suspect it is all better than closing SL and none of us wanted that. So it is what it is and many of us will adapt.  

I just got a new graphics program and will be making art -- well over the couch art. No vendor system, no cashing out, just fun and a creative release. 

[Ceka Cianci]

16 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I'm not feeling well and am attempting to read the Tilia TOS again which is not a good combination.  I don't understand the part where it says they need  our address, telephone number, all that blah blah if we don't sign into anything.  Does this mean if I have payment info on file, they already have my age, address, telephone number, etc?  Or is an official give us all your personal data form coming?  Or, will that form be only for cashing out?  Does anyone know?

That's what a lot of the changes like this have been for in the past.. It seems more business orientated where someone would be using the exchange more, than just someone keeping their lindens in world or buying them..

[Jaylinbridges]

1 hour ago, Anna Salyx said:

It's LL putting a hold on funds/credit for a given time frame. Tilia would just be honoring a hold request.  It's done all the time with every financial institution that deals with any form of credit processing.

Not everyone pays with a credit card.  My payments to LL are from Paypal, which transfers funds from my connected bank account, that has both FDIC insurance and pays interest.  If I don't have the funds in my bank account, the bank may still pay Paypal/LL, and hit me with an overdraft fee. Usually I keep enough in Paypal to cover all my LL expenses.

This hold request does not list a time frame, just they use their "sole discretion" to decide.  The only way to find out how much you can have as a process credit is to wait 5 to 30 days and see what they have held back.  If this was automatic when you made your process credit request, then it would not require someone's "sole discretion" decision.

If high income land barons or designers wanted to avoid the risk of LL holding their fake Tilia dollars, they could and some already do, ask for payment for their product and services from RL credit or debit cards, or Paypal directly - bypassing the fees and uncertainty of these new TOS rules.  If their usual payment is with Lindens, now they get stuck with holds.

Reducing one's payment obligations to LL is the only way to avoid Tilia dollar holds.  Fewer inworld stores, fewer regions to pay for, etc.  LL already knows there are few income generators in SL (artists, designers, land barons, and escorts), so they can do this without many complaints.

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Jaylinbridges

[Rowan Amore]

Paypal's ToS pretty much says the same thing.  They, at their sole discretion, can close your account, suspend activity, keep your money, etc.

Don't people who cash out already do so to Paypal and have agreed to THEIR ToS?  How is this any different?  It seems like a boilerplate ToS to me.

[Solar Legion]

4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Paypal's ToS pretty much says the same thing.  They, at their sole discretion, can close your account, suspend activity, keep your money, etc.

Don't people who cash out already do so to Paypal and have agreed to THEIR ToS?  How is this any different?  It seems like a boilerplate ToS to me.

It is. There's a reason for the tone in some of my responses in here ...

[Arielle Popstar]

5 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Paypal's ToS pretty much says the same thing.  They, at their sole discretion, can close your account, suspend activity, keep your money, etc.

Don't people who cash out already do so to Paypal and have agreed to THEIR ToS?  How is this any different?  It seems like a boilerplate ToS to me.

Not at all the same. Tilia is much closer to home. PayPal is not likely coming to S/L and looking to see what individuals are doing or behaving, which for all we know may impact on whether Tilia will or will not withhold funds.

[diamond Marchant]

A question you might ask yourself is "If my Second Life financial assets became unrecoverable, would that effect my real financial life?"

As Linden Research is private, we have no public financial data on them and can only judge their health using proxy data, such as active users and such. Make up your own mind about how long you think they will be operating Second Life.

I provide the diagram below because a picture can sometimes aid understanding. The box named "Deep Freeze" is a renaming of "Stored Value Account". It shows that your fiat-currency money goes to Tilia, for purposes of paying fees to Linden Lab and transacting game tokens. You are paid no interest on funds in the Deep Freeze nor are you guaranteed of being able to redeem it (cash out). I do not know if Tilia is required to back the Deep Freeze with 100% reserves.

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, diamond Marchant said:

The box named "Deep Freeze" is a renaming of "Stored Value Account".

Is it like a "Lock Box"? 

[Modulated]

17 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Paypal's ToS pretty much says the same thing.  They, at their sole discretion, can close your account, suspend activity, keep your money, etc.

Don't people who cash out already do so to Paypal and have agreed to THEIR ToS?  How is this any different?  It seems like a boilerplate ToS to me.

Yep., because paypal is NOT a bank and your money is not FDIC insured in their possession.  I got burned with them some time back and stopped using them for anything.  Your money can go poof with them and there is absolutely no recourse most of the time.

This is why I have never kept a cash balance with LL , because I'm sure the same can happen.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Modulated

[Rowan Amore]

Yes, Tilia is going to shut off your access to your USD account if you agree to their ToS.  LL, also.  Better pack your bags now.

Can I have your stuff?   Trade you for this nice tinfoil hat.

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

Yes, Tilia is going to shut off your access to your USD account if you agree to their ToS.  LL, also.  Better pack your bags now.

Can I have your stuff?   Trade you for this nice tinfoil hat.

Brilliant! They can't cash out anyway, may as well give their L$ to us if they're leaving!

* in awe *

[Modulated]

41 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Not everyone pays with a credit card.  My payments to LL are from Paypal, which transfers funds from my connected bank account, that has both FDIC insurance and pays interest.  If I don't have the funds in my bank account, the bank may still pay Paypal/LL, and hit me with an overdraft fee. Usually I keep enough in Paypal to cover all my LL expenses.

This hold request does not list a time frame, just they use their "sole discretion" to decide.  The only way to find out how much you can have as a process credit is to wait 5 to 30 days and see what they have held back.  If this was automatic when you made your process credit request, then it would not require someone's "sole discretion" decision.

If high income land barons or designers wanted to avoid the risk of LL holding their fake Tilia dollars, they could and some already do, ask for payment for their product and services from RL credit or debit cards, or Paypal directly - bypassing the fees and uncertainty of these new TOS rules.  If their usual payment is with Lindens, now they get stuck with holds.

Reducing one's payment obligations to LL is the only way to avoid Tilia dollar holds.  Fewer inworld stores, fewer regions to pay for, etc.  LL already knows there are few income generators in SL (artists, designers, land barons, and escorts), so they can do this without many complaints.

 

It really doesn't matter what your bank has, once your money is in paypal's possession(via funding transfer) there is NO FDIC insurance.

[EliseAnne85]

18 minutes ago, Modulated said:

It really doesn't matter what your bank has, once your money is in paypal's possession(via funding transfer) there is NO FDIC insurance.

A quick Google search reveals the following below:  (Also, I googled and found out Wells Fargo is one of Paypal's partner banks.)  People should call either Tilia or Paypal themselves if they need specific questions answered because I don't think LL is going to chime in here.  My copy/paste is between the stars:

********Because PayPal is not a bank, it is not directly covered by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. (FDIC), but users' funds are still FDIC-insured up to $250,000 through the partner banks that hold them.May 31, 2022***********

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by EliseAnne85

[Jaylinbridges]

22 minutes ago, Modulated said:

It really doesn't matter what your bank has, once your money is in paypal's possession(via funding transfer) there is NO FDIC insurance.

Of course, Paypal has no direct FDIC insurance. But I would only use the funding transfer when I was actually paying a bill to Tilia and LL.  And this transaction is instantaneous, or maybe a few seconds.  I don't need FDIC insurance for funds that are in my Paypal account for a few seconds.

The money in my bank account is still FDIC insured.  And if I transfer Paypal funds to my bank account, those funds are also insured once they reach my bank account, the same as any cash deposit I add to my bank account.

So it really does matter.

Added: see prior post - all banks have FDIC insurance as stated, and PayPal has NO requirement that you ever keep any funds in their account.  With a $0.00 balance in Paypal, they simply take the funds from your member bank, insured funds.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Jaylinbridges

[Solar Legion]

13 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Of course, Paypal has no direct FDIC insurance. But I would only use the funding transfer when I was actually paying a bill to Tilia and LL.  And this transaction is instantaneous, or maybe a few seconds.  I don't need FDIC insurance for funds that are in my Paypal account for a few seconds.

The money in my bank account is still FDIC insured.  And if I transfer Paypal funds to my bank account, those funds are also insured once they reach my bank account, the same as any cash deposit I add to my bank account.

So it really does matter.

Added: see prior post - all banks have FDIC insurance as stated, and PayPal has NO requirement that you ever keep any funds in their account.  With a $0.00 balance in Paypal, they simply take the funds from your member bank, insured funds.

Heh, yep. I myself only use my PayPal account as an added layer transaction wise and as a means to transfer funds to friends and family when needed - one of many options at my disposal.

I've seen what can happen and take steps to avoid such happening - not all that difficult whatsoever to do.

Frankly I do not see the concern as being as bad as some are making it out to be - welcome to the modern age. I have a similar thought process when it comes to those who willingly eschew things like modern smartphones. Keep the older models around as backups, use what is on offer and stop being so paranoid. At the very least stop letting it get in the way. Take what precautions you can.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Solar Legion

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Solar Legion said:

Heh, yep. I myself ony use my PayPal account as an added layer transaction wise and as a means to transfer funds to friends and family when needed - one of many options at my disposal.

That's just wonderful, you're so special. Fact is that the way I understand it here is that there are a quite a few creators who depend on the monies they make through Secondlife who are now facing having to transfer their funds through S/L then 2 levels of money transmitters, Tilia and Paypal with any of those levels being able to withhold and or delay those funds at their own discretion. Lot of finger crossing there if those monies are to pay mortgages, groceries and other essentials. Certainly some empathy would be in order when creators are having to face all the challenges involved in making ends meet.

[Modulated]

32 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Of course, Paypal has no direct FDIC insurance. But I would only use the funding transfer when I was actually paying a bill to Tilia and LL.  And this transaction is instantaneous, or maybe a few seconds.  I don't need FDIC insurance for funds that are in my Paypal account for a few seconds.

The money in my bank account is still FDIC insured.  And if I transfer Paypal funds to my bank account, those funds are also insured once they reach my bank account, the same as any cash deposit I add to my bank account.

So it really does matter.

Added: see prior post - all banks have FDIC insurance as stated, and PayPal has NO requirement that you ever keep any funds in their account.  With a $0.00 balance in Paypal, they simply take the funds from your member bank, insured funds.

You just posted a longer version of what I said. All I said is when your money is in paypal's possession there is no FDIC, and you're right for paypal accounts that hold no amounts its probably not a big deal. But keeping a good sum of money in a paypal account is just asking for trouble eventually.