Is Costal Water community use or Private Property?

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Quistess Alpha said:

4 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

If the coastline at the water is "Linden protected" land (not part of someone's parcel), then it is "Community Use".

If someone's parcel goes directly up to, or into the water, then it is "Private Property".

If the waterway itself is "Linden Protected", then it is "Community Use".

What about if the water is on a region that doesn't exist? Maybe then it's "Community No-use"?

Good one! And good luck getting a boat onto a "no-region"!

I can see the complaints now. "There is water off of my region but I cannot put my boat into it! SL teh SCUK!1!1!!"

[Henri Beauchamp]

On 10/18/2022 at 1:08 AM, Coffee Pancake said:

LL will not and can not force a private land holder to allow your passage, even if you're a mermaid, even if you're a mermaid in a boat.

And if I am a mermaid in an aquarium, on a boat ?... 🤣

[Gabriele Graves]

I'm not so sure the OP is talking about protected land encroachment.  The phrase that they used could equally apply to private land owners building over the waterway they own and I don't see a clarification in this topic from the OP.

Regardless it's all been said before:

• If there is protected land encroachment then AR it, otherwise there is nothing to be done.  LL built the coastal areas the way they are and they are working as they expected them to.
• It's easy to inspect the land under the water for the parcel owner.  If the owner isn't "Governor Linden" then it is private land.

[SeattleChris]

On 10/18/2022 at 8:30 AM, Jennifer Boyle said:

IMHO, there should be a strip of protected Linden water along all coastlines.

This is a great idea. I'd personally love to see a waterway system similar to the linden road system, though I'm not sure how feasible it is. Shipping canals for boats. Maybe even an absolutely unnecessary lock or two, just for the ambience.

And maybe a bit of a buffer around continents that provide a little more usable water, since the Blake Sea is finite and the lottery jackpot will insist on evading me. (I realize this would require extra regions, so it's probably a non-starter. Still... a guy can dream.)

 

[Jennifer Boyle]

11 hours ago, SeattleChris said:

This is a great idea. I'd personally love to see a waterway system similar to the linden road system, though I'm not sure how feasible it is. Shipping canals for boats. Maybe even an absolutely unnecessary lock or two, just for the ambience.

And maybe a bit of a buffer around continents that provide a little more usable water, since the Blake Sea is finite and the lottery jackpot will insist on evading me. (I realize this would require extra regions, so it's probably a non-starter. Still... a guy can dream.)

 

The regions that were needed could be very low-load, as they would have nothing permanent in them except water and the underlying land. Therefore, I would think that they would be low-cost to establish and operate.

[Setsuki Takeda]

There should be a new line of regions around *all* the mainland, add a few islands to rent but keep Linden protected water open for sailing, there' no reason I shouldn't be able to make it from Bellesaria to Blake Sea but it's just not possible due to "private property" that stretches right to the invisible wall in the water.

People could also consider that they live in a shared world and make some allowances for travel...

 

I have a private area on my own land, in a skybox at 2500m with an orb that only reaches 5m past the edge of the box, it offers privacy while not being a complete $^% to people using the road. I also have a visitor tracker, set to silent, so nobody gets the "Welcome to X, here's our NC and LM (Seriously, I'm already there, if I want a LM I'll take one) and a link to our group and may we show your profile picture on the visitor board?"

The main parcel has a second orb, this one set to blacklist, that boots people to home instantly if they are on my list.

That list includes griefers, stalkers, and anyone who has interrupted a GTFO run with their orbs and banlines.

Everyone else is allowed, even in a private home, though if I'm there and someone is being creepy I may turn "safe" off and shoot them in the face XD

Edited October 23, 2022 by NanashiNyx

[Coffee Pancake]

4 minutes ago, NanashiNyx said:

There should be a new line of regions around *all* the mainland, add a few islands to rent but keep Linden protected water open for sailing, there' no reason I shouldn't be able to make it from Bellesaria to Blake Sea

the reason is .. money 

If LL have piles of cash to burn, I for one would rather they hire another developer or a mole.

4 minutes ago, NanashiNyx said:

but it's just not possible due to "private property" that stretches right to the invisible wall in the water.

That would be how private property in SL works, putting it in quotes implies you don't have much respect for other peoples borders, which is exactly why zero second tp home security orbs are popular.

4 minutes ago, NanashiNyx said:

People could also consider that they live in a shared world and make some allowances for travel...

You can teleport.

4 minutes ago, NanashiNyx said:

That list includes griefers, stalkers, and anyone who has interrupted a GTFO run with their orbs and banlines.

 ....

[Setsuki Takeda]

Just now, Coffee Pancake said:

You can teleport.

 ....

So can they

[diamond Marchant]

I am VERY VERY VERY happy with the sailing situation in Second Life.

Due to three years of adding Bellisseria regions, we now have very well connected protected water. You can sail through hundreds of regions without problems.

Adding more protected water adjacent to some coastlines (e.g. SE Satori) would not improve overall connectivity, rather, it would just grant protected water access to specific private parcels, yanno, the places with orbs and blocky things. Don't wanna sail there.

[MidnightHaven Copperfield]

This matter brings to mind so many ideas for a Second Life resident solution(S). With Linden cooperation, (Could be an obstical) Form commuunity associations. Much like in the real world. "Gated Communities". Enforce residential and commercial  and the combined "Zoning". Hindsight is 20/20. Club owners should, in my  opinion never have started paid events. At least not without charging a nominal cover. For water regions? A pseudo Maritime law scenario. You spill "waste" (Prim Junk! With no real design concepts) you are fined or no longer an associated member. The possibilities are endless. Essentially? Stand up to it as a community. That would require organized meetings. Boring! I know. still. If enough land owners rallied. Both on main land and private regions? Well? Things that make me go, hmmmmm.

Mermaids, would have continents and coastlines of their own. I would love a real sort of paid policing. lol. That is the retired COP in Me. Red Light districts. etc. Don't get me started on business opps in a red light district, lol. BUt, let you imaginations be the guide.

When you think in terms of legal protections? Well if you are in the usa. bump you land (Region owners) into an area that is purposely proven to be actually owned by fellow Americans. And yes. That means USA. Now, why do that? Civil law and venue juristiction(s). Beyond that? I have no clue as I will not practice law. I imagne that it can be done this way. But I am only one person. There is SO MUCH talent on the grid. 

It is 0730 in the morning and I have been up all night in world so I may regret writing this. But I know that if you have spent any real time in SL. Well then... you and I and they  summing up to WE The avatars of SL. In order to form a more perfect GRID... No boycotts. just straight talk to Linden Lab. 

So there is my rant.

Be well everyone      

 

[Love Zhaoying]

On 10/21/2022 at 6:04 PM, Henri Beauchamp said:

On 10/17/2022 at 7:08 PM, Coffee Pancake said:

LL will not and can not force a private land holder to allow your passage, even if you're a mermaid, even if you're a mermaid in a boat.

And if I am a mermaid in an aquarium, on a boat ?... 🤣

This is sounding like "Green Eggs and Ham"! 

No, I would not eat them on a boat, I would not eat them with a goat!

I would not eat them with a mermaid, even in an aquarium or with her maid!

I will not eat them on her passage, I will not eat them with a..sassage! (sausage)

[Love Zhaoying]

10 hours ago, MidnightHaven Copperfield said:

No boycotts. just straight talk to Linden Lab. 

Go for it! If you go to a meeting where there are Lindens, and you try to influence them for the betterment of all, that means you are a candidate for being a member of the Intelligentsia! I read it on the Forum!

[Rowan Amore]

12 hours ago, MidnightHaven Copperfield said:

This matter brings to mind so many ideas for a Second Life resident solution(S). With Linden cooperation, (Could be an obstical) Form commuunity associations. Much like in the real world. "Gated Communities". Enforce residential and commercial  and the combined "Zoning". Hindsight is 20/20. Club owners should, in my  opinion never have started paid events. At least not without charging a nominal cover. For water regions? A pseudo Maritime law scenario. You spill "waste" (Prim Junk! With no real design concepts) you are fined or no longer an associated member. The possibilities are endless. Essentially? Stand up to it as a community. That would require organized meetings. Boring! I know. still. If enough land owners rallied. Both on main land and private regions? Well? Things that make me go, hmmmmm.

Mermaids, would have continents and coastlines of their own. I would love a real sort of paid policing. lol. That is the retired COP in Me. Red Light districts. etc. Don't get me started on business opps in a red light district, lol. BUt, let you imaginations be the guide.

When you think in terms of legal protections? Well if you are in the usa. bump you land (Region owners) into an area that is purposely proven to be actually owned by fellow Americans. And yes. That means USA. Now, why do that? Civil law and venue juristiction(s). Beyond that? I have no clue as I will not practice law. I imagne that it can be done this way. But I am only one person. There is SO MUCH talent on the grid. 

It is 0730 in the morning and I have been up all night in world so I may regret writing this. But I know that if you have spent any real time in SL. Well then... you and I and they  summing up to WE The avatars of SL. In order to form a more perfect GRID... No boycotts. just straight talk to Linden Lab. 

So there is my rant.

Be well everyone      

 

All that is in the Linden homes regions.  

[diamond Marchant]

14 hours ago, MidnightHaven Copperfield said:

. No boycotts. just straight talk to Linden Lab

No need to even talk. Just use the Jedi mind trick

[Aethelwine]

Whilst there are water passages along much of the mainland continental coasts, it is incomplete. It is a real shame places like Mos Ainsley and Barneys Bay are cut off from the rest of the waterways. On Satori regions were released before intended roads were added, I wonder if there was a similar conflict between Linden departments releasing land before it had been parcelled and finished. I doubt we will ever know for sure.

For mermaiding take a look around Degrand info hub,  or around Denny.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Aethelwine

[Aethelwine]

On 10/23/2022 at 6:17 AM, diamond Marchant said:

I am VERY VERY VERY happy with the sailing situation in Second Life.

Due to three years of adding Bellisseria regions, we now have very well connected protected water. You can sail through hundreds of regions without problems.

Adding more protected water adjacent to some coastlines (e.g. SE Satori) would not improve overall connectivity, rather, it would just grant protected water access to specific private parcels, yanno, the places with orbs and blocky things. Don't wanna sail there.

A waterway to Atanua from the south would remove the reliance on the good will of landowners to make the connection between the two reliable. Whether it happens or not is to be decided, but it would definitely be an improvement.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Aethelwine

[Raspberry Crystal]

I always feel touched and grateful when private land owners go out of their way to give back to the community, whether that is allowing passage, or creating builds which enhance not just the owner's land but the general landscape scene. I don't expect it, but it is much appreciated. Finding a beautiful underwater scene is a wonderful bonus!
Conversely, those owners who seem to go out of their way to inconvenience others remind me that awkward ****s exist, and will exploit any avenue to spread misery.
I wasn't in SL in the very early days, and I would be surprised if the management of the time foresaw how long this virtual world would last. If they had, then maybe more time would have been dedicated to considering how land allocation would impact the experience of everyday users going forwards.
I believe it was a mistake to allow any kind of private building in water areas. It is a very rare construction that looks at home floating in the sea, and if this means excessive cost for management, then I'm blaming poor coastal design in the first place. Of course making these observations with hindsight is much easier than predicting how a completely new entity will develop over time.
Many parts of the SL mainland coastline can look quite jarring, aesthetically,  and it is a real shame, because the underlying topography had a lot more potential.
 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Raspberry Crystal

[belindacarson]

6 hours ago, Raspberry Crystal said:

Conversely, those owners who seem to go out of their way to inconvenience others remind me that awkward ****s exist, and will exploit any avenue to spread misery.

maybe it's the self entitled users who are actually inconveniencing the land owners......................................

[Raspberry Crystal]

4 minutes ago, belindacarson said:

maybe it's the self entitled users who are actually inconveniencing the land owners......................................

I don't think the misery spreaders confine themselves to any particular category, you can be affected by them whether you are a sailor stuck on some poorly placed off-sim rocks, or a land owner being harassed by deliberate griefers.

[belindacarson]

2 minutes ago, Raspberry Crystal said:

I don't think the misery spreaders confine themselves to any particular category, you can be affected by them whether you are a sailor stuck on some poorly placed off-sim rocks, or a land owner being harassed by deliberate griefers.

my own land is near water, partly over he water, next to a road.  if i had a buck for everytime a self entitled user has tried to just sail right across, or fly right over when i have a land full of people i could retire tomorrow.

 

bless the orb of the zero second.

[Raspberry Crystal]

Sigh.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Raspberry Crystal

[Brightstar7777]

On 10/17/2022 at 4:08 PM, Coffee Pancake said:

Private land is private land, even when that land is underwater.

Privately owned land is not communality space, even when that land is coastal or underwater.

The only private land on Second Life are the private islands, for people who want to do something completely far-out and willing to pay like four times the price of their monthly ISP connection for this. Otherwise, you're in the shared world, which means that avatars and agents alike can see your property, see into it, and it necessarily co-exists (co-creatively) with its surroundings just like any good architect will tell you that any good build must.

There are many waterways in the shared world. These were built out over a period of nineteen years. In particular, the earliest regions were built before experience taught that it requires shared values in order to preserve natural features intended by the creators (moles or otherwise), and so there are few automatically enforced protections preventing an owner from coming through and bulldozing away a water-based right of way that happens to pass through their land. But that's completely non-sensical, everyone who isn't some flavor of pathological understands that you can't just buy riverfront or coastal property and then build a navigation hazard across it or block off access to and use of the shoreline. But technically, life does give you enough rope to hang yourself, and these early regions are kind of like that.

Therefore, sometimes it is regrettably necessary to kindly, then firmly, then insistently, then if necessary publicly and stridently inform anyone who doesn't get it of the facts if the proper authorities are too busy to attend to the need. How else are we expected to preserve heritage and essential inalienable legacy rights (express or implied?). 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Brightstar7777

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Brightstar7777 said:

But that's completely non-sensical, everyone who isn't some flavor of pathological understands that you can't just buy riverfront or coastal property and then build a navigation hazard across it or block off access to and use of the shoreline.

If your land extends into the waterway, you're free to do as you please with it.  Nothing pathological about it.  Just a fact.

 

1 hour ago, Brightstar7777 said:

Therefore, sometimes it is regrettably necessary to kindly, then firmly, then insistently, then if necessary publicly and stridently inform anyone who doesn't get it of the facts if the proper authorities are too busy to attend to the need. How else are we expected to preserve heritage and essential inalienable legacy rights (express or implied?). 

The facts are as I mentioned above.  How others may interpret those facts is irrelevant.  Publicly and stridently informing someone about something you perceive as wrong when in fact it is not, would be harassment.  

Now, ARing things that are ON or IN Linden protected space is different.  But then, you know that already?

[Gabriele Graves]

If LL intended all water to be protected then they would have protected it by cutting it at the land either when originally sold, whenever a parcel came up for auction or by forced relocation for the purposes of protecting water.  They haven't made any steps towards any of this, in fact in some places by adding extra water regions to provide access, they've cemented the decision to preserve the status quo.

It's quite obvious they know the value of selling water parcels and enjoy the revenue they bring either through auction, premium memberships or the original sale to the residents.  Nothing in LL's behaviour toward private water ownership on mainland has ever indicated anything differently.

Believing anything else is just foolish pipe-dreaming for circumstances which do not and have never existed.

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Gabriele Graves said:

If LL intended all water to be protected then they would have protected it by cutting it at the land either when originally sold, whenever a parcel came up for auction or by forced relocation for the purposes of protecting water.  They haven't made any steps towards any of this, in fact in some places by adding extra water regions to provide access, they've cemented the decision to preserve the status quo.

It's quite obvious they know the value of selling water parcels and enjoy the revenue they bring either through auction, premium memberships or the original sale to the residents.  Nothing in LL's behaviour toward private water ownership on mainland has ever indicated anything differently.

Believing anything else is just foolish pipe-dreaming for circumstances which do not and have never existed.

I know there are individuals and groups who do contact land owners to try and persuade (bully) them into opening their water to travellers.  The land owner is under no obligation to acquiesce.  Some do, some don't.