LL partnering with Speedlight & PremPlus gets Speedlight benefits

[Istelathis]

2 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

While you and others are questioning whether it can be done, others like myself are accessing it with a 10 year old app put out by one lone developer. Remember that LL did start development and then abandoned it either because it would be too many hoops to jump through with Apple or as we see now because they with their spinning off with Tila, are more interested the money exchanging side then they are in continued S/L development.

I can access it with speedlight on my RPI and phone, it doesn't run as well in the world view, but it is doable for some areas of the world.  My line of questioning is how well it can be done though, are we going to have a good experience on the phone, if we will be able to explore the world for long periods of time.  If I decide to hop on to one of Yavascripts pods, will the FPS be acceptable and will the world around me render, if I decide to earn some linden playing lindo will avatars render at the clubs I join, and so on.  Can I drive cars at a decent speed on the roads, go sailing, fly planes, rez my train and hit the tracks.  Will I be able to edit objects in my house, rearrange the furniture, build additions to my home.  All on a mid level phone mind you, but I would like to see if it can be done on a gaming phone as well.

Alternatively, will I be sitting around waiting for objects to load, or have to avoid invisible ones as I walk down a street.  Will my phone start to throttle as I explore, and I find my avatar stuck in one spot for a period of time.  Will my battery last for more than an hour if I decide to explore the world, and so on. 

I question if LL were going to devote resources toward a mobile app, will we have an enjoyable experience in world, and will it be decent enough to attract new people here.  Is it something they want to do, but it is simply to difficult of an ordeal to produce.  If the only viable option is streaming, but they find that it would be to expensive.   

I wonder what their vision of a mobile app would be and what their goals for it are, such questions as would they want to bring in new members, would they simply want to provide existing members a new tool, while we rely on computers to perform the more heavy actions, and the such.    What is it that they want out of the mobile app, vs what the users want out of it.  

Edited October 19, 2022 by Istelathis

[Phil Deakins]

@Wulfie ReanimatorI did the test by having an alt logged in and sending two IMs to it. It was then logged out for about 18 hours. When it logged in again, the IMs were still there. So it's not a persistent connection. At least not a 6 hour one.

One possibility occurred to me. Perhaps Speedlight stores the names of the people in IMs, and automatically requests the IMs from the LL server each time you log in, just like normal viewers get previous IMs when opening an IM with a person.

That could account for it all except for one thing. How does Speedlight show me some year-and-a-half old IMs with a person when it no longer shows me any week-old IMs with the same person? All of the IMs being done in Speedlight.

It's a very concerning mystery, because all sorts of very personal information gets passed in IMs - addresses, phone numbers, real names, etc. - and I can't think of any way that Speedlight is showing my year-and-a-half old IMs if it didn't actually store them in its own server.

It may be as Love suggested - Speedlight used to store private IMs but doesn't any more. We really do need an answer from the Speedlight creator, or from LL since they're recommending it.

Note
If Speedlight used to store private IMs without the user's permission or knowledge, then the creator is not a person who should be implicitly trusted, and, if Speedlight is used, it should be used with caution.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Phil Deakins

[Wulfie Reanimator]

Maybe @Glaznah Gassner has some input on how they handle IMs these days or what might have caused an old IM to show up.

[Qie Niangao]

23 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I would assume Speedlight is fetching conversations from LL services. Especially based on Phil's example.  NOT storing them on their servers (why would they need to?).

22 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Then, if only some chats show up, to me that means Speedlight was fetching / saving IM's differently in an earlier phase of their development process.  

Or there's something nondeterministic about the fetching from LL services process—which I very much suspect anyway, not as a user of Speedlight but as a very infrequent user of Firestorm. Sometimes after I haven't used Firestorm for months, on first login it will dredge up ancient IMs I've long since seen using other viewers. I have no idea whence these old messages emerge, but they cannot be stored on Firestorm's (nonexistent) servers. Maybe it's not even the same phenomenon, but I'm not particularly suspicious of Speedlight retaining IMs.

Theoretically, though, it is very true that passing cleartext messaging through any third party software is a potential concern, and moreso through servers (where nothing is detectible at the receiving end). That's a basic problem with this architecture unless IMs switch to end-to-end encryption.

[Qie Niangao]

58 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

Perhaps Speedlight stores the names of the people in IMs, and automatically requests the IMs from the LL server each time you log in, just like normal viewers get previous IMs when opening an IM with a person.

Oh, but those previous IMs are stored locally, right? Unless you're talking about something else, these come from whatever directory is specified in Preferences / Chat. (Different viewers make setting logging preferences arbitrarily complicated, but it should be under there somewhere.)

[Phil Deakins]

49 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Oh, but those previous IMs are stored locally, right? Unless you're talking about something else, these come from whatever directory is specified in Preferences / Chat. (Different viewers make setting logging preferences arbitrarily complicated, but it should be under there somewhere.)

Normally yes, but not these IMs. Since the 18 month old IMs were written, I changed computers from a tower to a Raspberry Pi. I did that a few weeks ago. In doing  it, the storage medium was also changed and nothing was brought over except my address book. So those IMs couldn't have been lifted from local storage when Speedlight first showed them a few days ago. Let me briefly go through what happened, step-by-step. It will have got lost in the posts.

1. 18 months ago I had a few IMs with a friend. I was trying Speedlight and the IMs said that I'll change to a normal viewer.

2. A week or so ago I rediscovered Speedlight, and now it suits what I want. I've had a few IMs with the same person, and a few with two other people. All of them showed up every time I logged in, but nothing more than those. The original 18 month old IMs were not shown at all.

3. Then I changed the browser settings so that cookies and history are deleted when I close the browser.

4. The next time I logged into Speedlight, all the recent IMs were gone and never returned, but the 18 month old ones appeared. They hadn't shown before I changed the settings.

?. Where did they come from. The computer was new, nothing had been lifted from the tower except my address book, so they couldn't have been stored in this computer.

That's the mystery, Qie. Did Speedlight store them on their own server back then? Did Speedlight perhaps store IM IDs and request the texts on login?

Edited October 20, 2022 by Phil Deakins

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

?. Where did they come from. The computer was new, nothing had been lifted from the tower except my address book, so they couldn't have been stored in this computer.

That's the mystery, Qie. Did Speedlight store them on their own server back then? Did Speedlight perhaps store IM IDs and request the texts on login?

I keep missing, or forgetting, your "take" on the other obvious option, that Speedlight is somehow fetching them using Second Life services. What was your thought on that again? Something like, "if that were the case, why aren't the more recent IM's included..?"

[Qie Niangao]

5 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

4. The next time I logged into Speedlight, all the recent IMs were gone and never returned, but the 18 month old ones appeared. They hadn't shown before I changed the settings.

Just to make sure I understand: those 18 month old ones appeared as already read, in the IM history with that correspondent, not as brand new IMs as if never received?

It would indeed be mysterious where the already-read ones could be stored except on Speedlight's servers (and that would be a reasonable service to provide, actually, considering there's no convenient local storage for a web-based viewer), unless the Lab stores these already-read IMs, in the already-read state.

What I was mumbling about was that the Lab apparently does retain ancient IMs that Firestorm somehow fetches as unread, even when another viewer has the same IMs stored locally as read. Unfortunately I neither know the protocol used by the viewer for fetching IMs at startup, nor do I have a structured history of how it occasionally seems to screw up.

[Phil Deakins]

10 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I keep missing, or forgetting, your "take" on the other obvious option, that Speedlight is somehow fetching them using Second Life services. What was your thought on that again? Something like, "if that were the case, why aren't the more recent IM's included..?"

I did say that, yes. Today I came up with the idea that IMs each have an ID, and that Speedlight was storing those it its servers.

[Phil Deakins]

@Qie Niangao

To be honest, I don't remember whether or not the appeared to have been read when I first saw them, but I do understand what you are saying. However, they had been read in the Speedlight viewer, because they were written in it. This is what I wrote in them:

I'm trying the Speedlight thing you mentioned

Now that I've seen it, I relog in the normal viewer

So they weren't unread in the Speedlight viewer when they first appeared after I'd changed the browser settings.

ETA:
Incidentally, there were 3 IMs - 1 to me and 2 from me (above). Those were almost certainly the only three IMs that for me occurred in Speedlight before a week ago.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Phil Deakins
addition

[belindacarson]

That's why I pinged The below - would be nice to get some information so we know it's accurate instead of unchecked facts ^^

 

@Patch Linden

[Phil Deakins]

On 10/20/2022 at 12:54 PM, Qie Niangao said:

It would indeed be mysterious where the already-read ones could be stored except on Speedlight's servers (and that would be a reasonable service to provide, actually, considering there's no convenient local storage for a web-based viewer), unless the Lab stores these already-read IMs, in the already-read state.

It would be a reasonable service to provide, as you say, but I do think we need to know if Speedlight stores the texts, so that we know whether or not we need to be cautious. I don't like the idea of someone, who is anonymous to me, storing private information that I may send to someone via IMs.

Because it's come up, and they are not yet telling us the answer, I won't use Speedlight when sending private information in IMs. I'll use it for other IMs though.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Phil Deakins

[Love Zhaoying]

21 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

I won't use Speedlight when sending private information in IMs.

There has to be a better way to send "private information" besides ANY IM's at all.

Such as, a link that expires.

Or, a notecard.  Someone could copy the IM text and paste it elsewhere just as easily as the info in a notecard.  (I assume "copy / paste" of the "private information" is a valid use-case for "private information"!  Otherwise what would one expect the receiver to do, transcribe it with their fingers from their screen? May as well tell them in Voice.)

Just sayin'.

[Buttonsens]

At least at some point of time speedlight advertised the feature that you could see your IM history across devices, means IMs get saved on their servers. Not sure if there is an opt-out option.

Having ANY IMs stored on a 3rd party server just does not make sense in my eyes. It adds a completely unnecessary risk. Who makes sure that the data is secure? Who says this can be trusted in any way? No offense to the creators of speedlight, they may be doing everything perfectly. But I can't know that, and I don't want any of my data stored on a 3rd party server in general.

If LL wants to commit to speedlight, they should just buy it and run it themselves.

I just wonder what went wrong with the own project. What had been communicated was that it would be coming for iOS and that it would be text focused at first. (So if anyone was expecting fancy graphics from the SL mobile viewer release, they didn't listen correctly.)

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Buttonsens

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 hour ago, Buttonsens said:

I just wonder what went wrong with the own project. What had been communicated was that it would be coming for iOS and that it would be text focused at first. (So if anyone was expecting fancy graphics from the SL mobile viewer release, they didn't listen correctly.)

First it was "we're making a mobile viewer again," then it was "it's going to be text-only," then it was cancelled (again).

[Qie Niangao]

A few minutes ago on Lab Gab, Grumpity said that the Lab does have a mobile viewer effort underway, focusing on high quality 3D graphics. Not sure if there are more details public yet.

[Love Zhaoying]

9 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

A few minutes ago on Lab Gab, Grumpity said that the Lab does have a mobile viewer effort underway, focusing on high quality 3D graphics. Not sure if there are more details public yet.

Gotta love how people kept posting "LL ABANDONED the mobile viewer!!1!!" while it was only put "on hold" as we were told.

[Arielle Popstar]

40 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Gotta love how people kept posting "LL ABANDONED the mobile viewer!!1!!" while it was only put "on hold" as we were told.

With what they said today in a sentence or two blurb they could have mentioned in multiple places long before this. After years of broken promises and long delayed features, they could have avoided a fair bit of chaos by mentioning officially they were still working on a mobile viewer in spite of the SpeedLight being added to P+. Bloody ridiculous we have had to wait this long to hear something on it. 

[Istelathis]

Hopefully we will get regular updates as to how well the progress is going, what kind of road blocks they encounter along the way, what their goal is as far as what the viewer is expected to be able to accomplish, the features being implemented, the gui and so on.  

I find that sort of information to be interesting, and opens dialogue for the rest of us to examine and speculate on - which also has the benefit of bringing more activity to the forum and in world.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Gotta love how people kept posting "LL ABANDONED the mobile viewer!!1!!" while it was only put "on hold" as we were told.

To be fair, it's pretty hard to cheer them on when we haven't seen even a partial implementation of the mobile viewer. (Have we?)

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

To be fair, it's pretty hard to cheer them on when we haven't seen even a partial implementation of the mobile viewer. (Have we?)

A day or so ago, I reviewed one of Ms. Popstar's older threads - I believe on the mobile viewer - and as I recall, the thread started with notification that the test regions and users participation had ended. @Arielle Popstar, am I close? 

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

With what they said today in a sentence or two blurb they could have mentioned in multiple places long before this. After years of broken promises and long delayed features, they could have avoided a fair bit of chaos by mentioning officially they were still working on a mobile viewer in spite of the SpeedLight being added to P+. Bloody ridiculous we have had to wait this long to hear something on it. 

yes because it takes time to develop something, and they don't want to give a definitive answer on anything. I don't think you are entitled to constant updates. I feel like they can give updates, whenever they want. And sorry I couldn't find the info. I actually looked. And they have always mentioned that, but here is the thing. I would rather them mention it when its closer to being done. Then it being in such an early alpha stage. I hate when developers do that, tell you years in advance. I would rather them tell me, closer to release. So then I can be actually excited. 

[Qie Niangao]

1 minute ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

To be fair, it's pretty hard to cheer them on when we haven't seen even a partial implementation of the mobile viewer. (Have we?)

If we have, I sure haven't noticed. The whole thing is more than passing strange, if you ask me. It's not that they're suddenly taking up development of this mobile viewer, at least as I understood Grumpity, but rather it's apparently been ongoing as they said was part of the 2022 roadmap.*

Getting quality graphics on a phone is one challenge (unless the rendering isn't done on the phone itself). But there's a more theoretically interesting problem of how to use a phone as a "game controller" for virtual world navigation and interaction with that world and other users, as we'd expect of a viewer. Past framerate, this UX design problem could be the base of a patent fortress for the Lab's future. Maybe that's why we don't see anything yet, while developers explore accompanied by a retinue of IP lawyers.

But probably not.

________________
I mentioned this earlier in the thread.

[Arielle Popstar]

4 hours ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

yes because it takes time to develop something, and they don't want to give a definitive answer on anything. I don't think you are entitled to constant updates. I feel like they can give updates, whenever they want. And sorry I couldn't find the info. I actually looked. And they have always mentioned that, but here is the thing. I would rather them mention it when its closer to being done. Then it being in such an early alpha stage. I hate when developers do that, tell you years in advance. I would rather them tell me, closer to release. So then I can be actually excited. 

I did some investigating about the time it took to develop a typical game on android and found it is usually between 3-6 months for a brand new app. In the case of an android viewer for S/L it should be even less as one had already been developed so it was already known it was possible, which makes it easier to create a second one, even if the same code couldn't be used.

We haven't had an update in a year and even the one we did get last year was no more than notifying us they were stopping development and heading in a new direction, without giving any hint as to what that was. Do we deserve updates? Well, I was in business most of my life and when I was promising my clients a new product, I felt they deserved to be told they when to expect it and if it took longer, I felt they deserved an update. Those clients after all were collectively paying for everything including the monies I made for myself as well the infrastructure that made it all possible. Much like how we collectively pay for all the Lindens wages, servers, Sansar, Tila and the profits going into the owners pockets. Yeah, I think as a customer I deserve a little more consideration and updates about what and when a new product is expected to be launched. 

Maybe I am just old fashioned in that sort of expectation but there you have it.

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I did some investigating about the time it took to develop a typical game on android and found it is usually between 3-6 months for a brand new app. In the case of an android viewer for S/L it should be even less as one had already been developed so it was already known it was possible, which makes it easier to create a second one, even if the same code couldn't be used.

We haven't had an update in a year and even the one we did get last year was no more than notifying us they were stopping development and heading in a new direction, without giving any hint as to what that was. Do we deserve updates? Well, I was in business most of my life and when I was promising my clients a new product, I felt they deserved to be told they when to expect it and if it took longer, I felt they deserved an update. Those clients after all were collectively paying for everything including the monies I made for myself as well the infrastructure that made it all possible. Much like how we collectively pay for all the Lindens wages, servers, Sansar, Tila and the profits going into the owners pockets. Yeah, I think as a customer I deserve a little more consideration and updates about what and when a new product is expected to be launched. 

Maybe I am just old fashioned in that sort of expectation but there you have it.

Well, you also gotta understand, they are not only developing the app. They are also developing other new stuff and updating other stuff. So if something gets canned in the middle, its probably because they took on more they can chew at the time. I mean there are games that I want to come out sooner, but I would rather a company take the time and do it right the first time. Instead of it being chalked full of bugs. This is honestly how I see it, it will come out when it comes out. There is no need to rush them. I mean they are not some triple a game studio. They are a smaller studio, with probably not even half of that.