LL partnering with Speedlight & PremPlus gets Speedlight benefits

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

What you are leaving out of the equation either because you don't know or not being upfront about is that the Lab knew this was going to happen 5 years ago when Lumiya was taken off of the TPV list and followed up with putting the dev in a position where she no longer qualified to have a viewer on it. At that point they knew darn well that we were going to be out of a mobile viewer, which from the 500,000 + sales was a popular option. 

If you are gonna be mad about that, be mad at google. For changing their polices, which meant she had to take it off of google play. Which actually hurt her. So go off and blame LL for something that was caused by a google licencing change. 

[Sammy Huntsman]

Literally it was a change in SMS policy that really hurt the creator of Lumiya. 

https://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2019/05/lumiya-support-second-life-android-google-play.html?fbclid=IwAR3plSTeuwd-yTrxnRUIhZnAoWoAM0dIbGgRAMAfoxrjgKRXU6_EL8F6Zqo

Here is the article talking about it. 

 

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

If you are gonna be mad about that, be mad at google. For changing their polices, which meant she had to take it off of google play. Which actually hurt her. So go off and blame LL for something that was caused by a google licencing change. 

Google is secondary and happened after the fact. Besides, Google is not the only android app distributor.

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

Google is secondary and happened after the fact. Besides, Google is not the only android app distributor.

Oh, I know. But where is your proof that LL did this to her? I mean if you are gonna make blatant claims like that, you need proof to back it up. 

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, Sammy Huntsman said:

Oh, I know. But where is your proof that LL did this to her? I mean if you are gonna make blatant claims like that, you need proof to back it up. 

No, I don't. This was from discussions with Oz when he ran the Open Development User Group. I have some of the chat logs from those meetings still but I am not going to post them here to satisfy you as the information is available elsewhere too.

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

No, I don't. This was from discussions with Oz when he ran the Open Development User Group. I have some of the chat logs from those meetings still but I am not going to post them here to satisfy you as the information is available elsewhere too.

Well, where is that info? Please provide links to where I can find that. 

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, Sammy Huntsman said:

Well, where is that info? Please provide links to where I can find that. 

You have the Lumiya viewer you mentioned. Did you not follow the Lumiya group chat? You appear to be arguing for the sake of arguing. That will just get the thread closed and have you blaming others for it.

[Rowan Amore]

https://modemworld.me/2019/05/02/lumiya-client-availability/

[Sammy Huntsman]

19 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

You have the Lumiya viewer you mentioned. Did you not follow the Lumiya group chat? You appear to be arguing for the sake of arguing. That will just get the thread closed and have you blaming others for it.

No, I don't, but what does that have to do with me asking you to cite your sources?  I am not arguing for the sake of arguing, I am asking for proof of your baseless claim. How is it so hard to just cite your source? I mean just send a link or a screenshot from the group. Please. 

[Solar Legion]

Lumiya being listed in the TPV directory or not is irrelevant - the directory is not an official, endorsed or exhaustive listing of TPVs.

Any assertions concerning its removal's effects (beyond reducing it to word of mouth or needing to look for it in a web search after that) are - therefore - irrelevant and conjecture at best, blatant falsehoods at worst.

Trying to frame it otherwise is the attempt at revising history - beginning and end.

No, I won't be going back and forth over this either. It is as stated - keep whatever agenda you may have out of here.

As a final addition: This topic does not concern Lumiya and - as always referencing it is only relevant at this stage in a historical context. That is it. Move on already.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Solar Legion

[Istelathis]

Moving back to speedlight, I think LL would have to eventually provide a streaming service for a proper 3d experience from a mobile device.  Speedlight is a neat little viewer, but for rendering the world it is very limited, and it doesn't seem like mobile devices such as phones will be able to properly load SL for quite some time to come.  

It might actually be a selling point to offer a streaming service for a discounted price to P+ members, while having a slightly higher fee for others.  If they were to provide a streamlined GUI for ease of use on mobile devices such as phones and tablets it would make things a lot better.  

I just don't know how viable such a service would be though, and if there would even be enough demand for it.  It goes well beyond my knowledge how much it would cost to render all of the data to be streamed from LL, but it is fun to think about.  While streaming my viewers from my own personal computer to my phone, I did think it was a pretty neat experience, the main problem was that the viewers just did not perform so well when it came to accessing the interface - I used moonlight to stream, and for the viewers I had configured the phone to have an overlay to act as a gamepad, which was okay but still kind of clunky.  Trying to type in chat was difficult, as was going through my inventory, the GUI just doesn't work for it in any practical way.

Perhaps if there were a viewer with a GUI specifically designed for mobile devices, that also were based upon streaming the game we would be a lot closer to having an enjoyable 3d world we could interact with.  Especially if such a viewer could have our own computers stream the services, then mayhaps another service provider could jump on and host their own sessions people could pay for to have their SL session streamed for them.

 

I don't think we can have a fully functional viewer for phones anytime soon, and by the time the hardware of phones is capable of handling what SL currently demands for a good experience, the viewers will have advanced to a point that it wouldn't matter as mobile technology will lag behind.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Istelathis

[Rowan Amore]

Y'all need to get off your phones and get back to work!

All I remember is a dozen people standing around at the Chamber, on their phones, taking up valuable spots and they didn't always rez in correctly.  Most said they were at work but could only log into SL on their phone...instead of working.they are chit chatting with friends on SL?    Seems to me, Speedlight is just fine for those types of situations.  Sitting and waiting for an appointment or sitting in traffic?  Sure, hop on and pay your rent or tell friends you'll be late logging in.  Answer questions if you're a store rep or merchant.  

 

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

No, I don't, but what does that have to do with me asking you to cite your sources?  I am not arguing for the sake of arguing, I am asking for proof of your baseless claim. How is it so hard to just cite your source? I mean just send a link or a screenshot from the group. Please. 

You can look here to see the date when the Lumiya viewer was removed from the TPV list. That was well before it was removed from Google Play. When the Lindens were asked about why it was removed, they refused to answer nor state the why though from past removed viewers, it was not because there was anything in it that made S/L or its residents vulnerable. More simply cannot be mentioned here as it is against the Community Guidelines.

1 hour ago, Solar Legion said:

No, I won't be going back and forth over this either. It is as stated - keep whatever agenda you may have out of here.

As a final addition: This topic does not concern Lumiya and - as always referencing it is only relevant at this stage in a historical context. That is it. Move on already.

Well anytime Lumiya is mentioned you are right there spouting your agenda so I have no doubt you'll be back.

The topic concerns the ability for a mobile viewer to run on a cell phone or tablet and Lumiya happened to be a good example of one that could with a much better 3d view then any other current mobile viewer(s). The question still remains whether Speedlight is the extent of the Lab is going to go for a mobile viewer when so much more is possible. Some people just seem unwilling to admit that Mobile has a better price/performance ratio then the sub $1000 laptops available out there: Your phone is now more powerful than your PC 

If you are going to argue this, then stay on topic and back it up.

[Solar Legion]

There is nothing to argue, Lumiya's only relevance is on a historical note. Beginning and end.

I am not "spouting an agenda" - I am restating reality.

You want to discuss mobile viewers and their future? Do. So. Leave the past where it is and use it in the proper context.

Leave your agenda at the door.

[Arielle Popstar]

2 hours ago, Istelathis said:

Moving back to speedlight, I think LL would have to eventually provide a streaming service for a proper 3d experience from a mobile device.  Speedlight is a neat little viewer, but for rendering the world it is very limited, and it doesn't seem like mobile devices such as phones will be able to properly load SL for quite some time to come.  

It might actually be a selling point to offer a streaming service for a discounted price to P+ members, while having a slightly higher fee for others.  If they were to provide a streamlined GUI for ease of use on mobile devices such as phones and tablets it would make things a lot better.  

I just don't know how viable such a service would be though, and if there would even be enough demand for it.  It goes well beyond my knowledge how much it would cost to render all of the data to be streamed from LL, but it is fun to think about.  While streaming my viewers from my own personal computer to my phone, I did think it was a pretty neat experience, the main problem was that the viewers just did not perform so well when it came to accessing the interface - I used moonlight to stream, and for the viewers I had configured the phone to have an overlay to act as a gamepad, which was okay but still kind of clunky.  Trying to type in chat was difficult, as was going through my inventory, the GUI just doesn't work for it in any practical way.

Perhaps if there were a viewer with a GUI specifically designed for mobile devices, that also were based upon streaming the game we would be a lot closer to having an enjoyable 3d world we could interact with.  Especially if such a viewer could have our own computers stream the services, then mayhaps another service provider could jump on and host their own sessions people could pay for to have their SL session streamed for them.

 

I don't think we can have a fully functional viewer for phones anytime soon, and by the time the hardware of phones is capable of handling what SL currently demands for a good experience, the viewers will have advanced to a point that it wouldn't matter as mobile technology will lag behind.

After your previous post questioning the ability for phones to deliver a functional viewer I did some looking around on the web and backed with experiences with the one 3d android viewer that has been available for the past 10 years and it's ever increasing functionality up until development was stopped in 2017, I'd wager we could have something pretty close to that. Since I am shopping for a new phone anyway, I took a look at some of the current cell phones out there and ran across this RedMagic 7 unit costing $700 for an 18GB ram and top of the line processor. That is a better price and specs then comparably priced laptop and considering it is over twice the speed and operating ram of my present phone, would make Lumiya very capable inworld as it always seemed very ram dependent considering past phone upgrades. A viewer that would be similar to what we had with Lumiya but upgraded to take advantage of the capabilities of newer mobile hardware, should put us well into range of a very acceptable experience at a price point that is less than a comparable laptop.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Arielle Popstar
Added Link

[Arielle Popstar]

11 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

There is nothing to argue, Lumiya's only relevance is on a historical note. Beginning and end.

I am not "spouting an agenda" - I am restating reality.

You want to discuss mobile viewers and their future? Do. So. Leave the past where it is and use it in the proper context.

Leave your agenda at the door.

You are the one arguing Lumiya's historical relevance whereas I am arguing Lumiya as an example of what is possible with an android viewer. Please read what I wrote. I can't make it any simpler.

[Sammy Huntsman]

25 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Well anytime Lumiya is mentioned you are right there spouting your agenda so I have no doubt you'll be back.

The topic concerns the ability for a mobile viewer to run on a cell phone or tablet and Lumiya happened to be a good example of one that could with a much better 3d view then any other current mobile viewer(s). The question still remains whether Speedlight is the extent of the Lab is going to go for a mobile viewer when so much more is possible. Some people just seem unwilling to admit that Mobile has a better price/performance ratio then the sub $1000 laptops available out there: Your phone is now more powerful than your PC 

Um well I would say that Lumiya is not better by any means. It needs to be updated heavily, and I  wouldn't say its better. When you have cheese string mesh, as it is outdated and hasn't been updated since forever. So how pray tell, is it better as a 3rd party viewer? And it being removed has no relevance to why it was removed. That nor does it back up your claims you made, without any sources I might add. As for an agenda, it isn't. This is basically giving a logical and rational opinion on the matter. Lumiya is outdated and hasn't been updated since 2017. So why would LL take on a viewer that hasn't been updated in 5 years? Again that would be a lot of work to make it up to par,  then they would have to ask the creator to buy said app. So I mean it would not be a worthwhile investment whatsoever. 

[Sammy Huntsman]

I really don't see the comparison here, yeah the 3D capabilities on Speedlight are way different and most people get that. But you are talking about a viewer that has 5 years of no updates. Tell me how can it still be relevant, when the creator has not even touched it in ages? Let alone updated it to the most recent update. That mobile viewer is just as relevant as onlive and linden lab partnering. 

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, Sammy Huntsman said:

I really don't see the comparison here, yeah the 3D capabilities on Speedlight are way different and most people get that. But you are talking about a viewer that has 5 years of no updates. Tell me how can it still be relevant, when the creator has not even touched it in ages? Let alone updated it to the most recent update. That mobile viewer is just as relevant as onlive and linden lab partnering. 

I'm not arguing Lumiya needs updating Sammy. I am arguing that the Lab can give us something much better then what is basically a static view of the world. We had a viewer with that capability already in 2007. Lumiya as an example proved it was possible to have so much more so why is the Lab promoting what amounts to something from 15 years ago and thinking we should be happy with that? 

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I'm not arguing Lumiya needs updating Sammy. I am arguing that the Lab can give us something much better then what is basically a static view of the world. We had a viewer with that capability already in 2007. Lumiya as an example proved it was possible to have so much more so why is the Lab promoting what amounts to something from 15 years ago and thinking we should be happy with that? 

Let me make this clear, Speed Light and Linden Lab partnered. They didn't buy them out, and I mean you don't need to be happy about it. But you are acting like this is LLs default mobile viewer, when they have clearly stated. That this is not the default app, they will be making one. 

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

Let me make this clear, Speed Light and Linden Lab partnered. They didn't buy them out, and I mean you don't need to be happy about it. But you are acting like this is LLs default mobile viewer, when they have clearly stated. That this is not the default app, they will be making one. 

You have stated that before and I asked you for a link to where they said that and you never replied. Please provide such as I have certainly seen nothing from an official lab source stating their intentions for a cross platform or mobile viewer beyond Speedlight.

[Sammy Huntsman]

10 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

You have stated that before and I asked you for a link to where they said that and you never replied. Please provide such as I have certainly seen nothing from an official lab source stating their intentions for a cross platform or mobile viewer beyond Speedlight.

Give me a bit, I am trying to remember where I saw it. But I remember reading it somehwere. 

[Istelathis]

19 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

That is a better price and specs then comparably priced laptop and considering it is over twice the speed and operating ram of my present phone, would make Lumiya very capable inworld as it always seemed very ram dependent considering past phone upgrades.

I become a bit skeptical when I see claims of how fast cellphones are compared to laptops, mostly because I don't trust marketing.  When I read that smartphones are more powerful than computers, my Spidey sense gets triggered and I am left wondering how they have arrived at that conclusion.  One of the problems I see would be heating, there really is no cooling setup in phones that would adequately allow the full potential of the chipset to maintain games for prolonged periods of time.  Another is just how much power it is draining from the battery.  For example, I have an old laptop that can run cyberpunk 2077 for hours, this old machine is running a i7-7700HQ with a geforce 1050ti - it is lower specs than a lot of computers now, I bought it for less than $1000 I believe about five years ago.  I question why I haven't seen any games as sophisticated as Cyberpunk 2077 for phones, if phones are more capable than PCs.  

On paper the phone you listed can probably out perform my laptop, but then I question for how long before it starts throttling?  Can it sustain this for a few hours, and so on.  For a SL viewer, I wonder the same thing, would that smartphone be able to handle what my aging laptop can for a few hours at a time?

I honestly don't know.  What I do know, is that most of the games I see for smartphones, are not very demanding.  I imagine there is a reason for it, I would love to have more sophisticated games for my phone.

[Solar Legion]

48 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

You are the one arguing Lumiya's historical relevance whereas I am arguing Lumiya as an example of what is possible with an android viewer. Please read what I wrote. I can't make it any simpler.

That's nice.

Don't really care. I am not "arguing" the historical relevance - I am stating the only way it is relevant. It is a snapshot of what was possible.

What is "possible" has changed and what was possible is only relevant as a historical note.

What is possible: a fair bit if the developers sink the time and energy into said development. You might get something a bit better than what we had back then.

Not that hard to figure out - at all.

Nor is that hard to figure out that it actually takes time to develop such a thing.

[Solar Legion]

19 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

I become a bit skeptical when I see claims of how fast cellphones are compared to laptops, mostly because I don't trust marketing.  When I read that smartphones are more powerful than computers, my Spidey sense gets triggered and I am left wondering how they have arrived at that conclusion.  One of the problems I see would be heating, there really is no cooling setup in phones that would adequately allow the full potential of the chipset to maintain games for prolonged periods of time.  Another is just how much power it is draining from the battery.  For example, I have an old laptop that can run cyberpunk 2077 for hours, this old machine is running a i7-7700HQ with a geforce 1050ti - it is lower specs than a lot of computers now, I bought it for less than $1000 I believe about five years ago.  I question why I haven't seen any games as sophisticated as Cyberpunk 2077 for phones, if phones are more capable than PCs.  

On paper the phone you listed can probably out perform my laptop, but then I question for how long before it starts throttling?  Can it sustain this for a few hours, and so on.  For a SL viewer, I wonder the same thing, would that smartphone be able to handle what my aging laptop can for a few hours at a time?

I honestly don't know.  What I do know, is that most of the games I see for smartphones, are not very demanding.  I imagine there is a reason for it, I would love to have more sophisticated games for my phone.

Ah yep - phones may have advanced but they are not anywhere close to a PC or Laptop.