ALM Proposal / Work

[Ceka Cianci]

This page of the thread has been very enlightening..  I have a much better grasp of what it is and what's going on now with things.. Thank you all

ETA: Well since I got bumped to the next page, I was speaking about the prior page.. hehehe

Hate when that happens! \o/

Edited September 20, 2022 by Ceka Cianci

[Love Zhaoying]

20 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

22 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, no. Probably not. I know lots of people in SL who generally don't have ALM on. And I myself will turn it off in certain contexts (although the new performance update probably means I will do that much less than I did).

I think I've mentioned before the instance of a friend of mine -- a 14 year veteran of SL -- who was astonished when I sent him a pic of the log cabin he build for himself with ALM and shadows activated, because he'd never seen it "look like that before."

SL is chock full of people who aren't gamers, don't have very up-to-date computers, and aren't here mainly for the visuals in any case. In some cases, they are on very old computers, or ones that lack bells and whistles, because they can't afford them -- they're on a fixed income or whatever.

Again, we all need to stop assuming that "our" SL is also everyone else's SL.

Expand  

I mean, we're talking about literally decades old equipment here. While there's certainly still people in SL using stuff that old, you have to imagine it's not the majority simply due to compatibility issues, big scary "this is no longer supported/you need to update to access this" messages that would be popping up everywhere, and good old fashioned hardware breaking down.

I took a look-see today: I have had ALM "on" most of this time, but only "medium-ish" with Shadows definitely "off". 

So, what did I benefit from ALM? URP? I mean, EEP? I think that was off too.

[EliseAnne85]

3 hours ago, Tarani Tempest said:

This is so confusing.  ALM does not add much in the way of vibrancy, color and detail in the diffuse texture. It never has. People have been making lovely vibrant textures for years in here....no ALM needed.  ALM is about the materials and the effects of the in game lighting,  that can add ADDITIONAL detail and a pseudo 3d texture to an object....for those that wish to go all out. 

So, I don't understand what you mean by "second texture looks like ALM is on but it's done in Photoshop."   The second texture is going to look just as it does in or out of ALM.

 

I know.  I said I have been working on baking some of those effects in - baking in bump and shine all into one texture not three but for Midday.  I disagree that those two textures I showed would look the same at Midday.  I brought it up because Sid said had he just turned ALM off so I assumed he was saying it looks so yucky now because I am on Midday and then I said that's because most textures are blah (dull) but I meant for Midday, which Sid was saying he was now on.

I am out of the forums for a bit and don't have time to discuss what I said further.  I'm just doing experimentation with bump and shine in Photoshop - putting bump and shine into the texture but I am out of time to discuss it further.  My response was in response to Sid's post.

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by EliseAnne85

[Ceka Cianci]

24 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I took a look-see today: I have had ALM "on" most of this time, but only "medium-ish" with Shadows definitely "off". 

So, what did I benefit from ALM? URP? I mean, EEP? I think that was off too.

You have reached ALMlightenment?

[Love Zhaoying]

31 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

You have reached ALMlightenment?

"ALMs for the poor! ALMs for the poor!" * begging for a new graphics card *

[Paul Hexem]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I took a look-see today: I have had ALM "on" most of this time, but only "medium-ish" with Shadows definitely "off". 

So, what did I benefit from ALM? URP? I mean, EEP? I think that was off too.

ALM isn't about shadows, either. It's about recognizing lights and materials layers on objects.

Particularly in details is where it shines, no pun intended. As a simple example, hardwood floor texture with materials will allow the light to catch on each plank and all the details of the woodgrain, even on a regular prim.

That sort of thing is, and has been industry standard for a very long time.

SL is way overdue.

[Rowan Amore]

52 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I know.  I said I have been working on baking some of those effects in - baking in bump and shine all into one texture not three but for Midday.  I disagree that those two textures I showed would look the same at Midday.  I brought it up because Sid said had he just turned ALM off so I assumed he was saying it looks so yucky now because I am on Midday and then I said that's because most textures are blah (dull) but I meant for Midday, which Sid was saying he was now on.

I am out of the forums for a bit and don't have time to discuss what I said further.  I'm just doing experimentation with bump and shine in Photoshop - putting bump and shine into the texture but I am out of time to discuss it further.  My response was in response to Sid's post.

 

Very few people run around using Midday.  It's probably THE worst lighting ever.

You remind me of someone.  Have we met before?

[Frionil Fang]

4 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

That sort of thing is, and has been industry standard for a very long time.

ALM is kind of (but maybe not quite as refined as) Doom 3 and Half-Life 2. Those are 2004 games, for perspective.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

Very few people run around using Midday. 

I do! Lol!

[Paulsian]

27 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

Very few people run around using Midday. 

I do! Lol!

Me too, if it looks good in midday it will look good any way is my motto. I derender water, pause clouds and these are my normal settings. I don't really have to do this with any other program, so anything the experts think will make the cogs omega better is cool with me. 

[Finite]

38 minutes ago, Paulsian said:

Me too, if it looks good in midday it will look good any way is my motto. I derender water, pause clouds and these are my normal settings. I don't really have to do this with any other program, so anything the experts think will make the cogs omega better is cool with me. 

I’ve been pretty satisfied with the latest FS update so far. It seems to run a lot more efficiently at higher settings now. Maybe you could try ramping up the settings a bit to see how it goes.

[Jaylinbridges]

1 hour ago, Paulsian said:

Me too, if it looks good in midday it will look good any way is my motto. I derender water, pause clouds and these are my normal settings. I don't really have to do this with any other program, so anything the experts think will make the cogs omega better is cool with me. 

What kind of early 1980's computer are you using that would require such horrible settings?  So you never see an avatar but yourself?  Frankly those settings are disgusting

Midday is the absolute worst windlight (EEP now) you can use, out of about 10,000 EEPS.  Maybe that's all you had back in 2006, when blinding facelights were needed to wash out the face shadows.  But OMG try something else but the horrible default setting Midday.   

[Rowan Amore]

35 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

What kind of early 1980's computer are you using that would require such horrible settings?  So you never see an avatar but yourself?  Frankly those settings are disgusting

Midday is the absolute worst windlight (EEP now) you can use, out of about 10,000 EEPS.  Maybe that's all you had back in 2006, when blinding facelights were needed to wash out the face shadows.  But OMG try something else but the horrible default setting Midday.   

Might be the dial up internet causing the problems?  😂

[Rowan Amore]

3 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I do! Lol!

Passing you an EEP setting when I log in.

[EliseAnne85]

6 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Very few people run around using Midday.  It's probably THE worst lighting ever.

You remind me of someone.  Have we met before?

I never said I run around using Midday.  

When Sid said he shut his ALM OFF, I assumed that's the default that turned on and that's why he said "Yikes!...and further said it looked ancient or whatever his particular wording was.  

I had said for dark sims, I turn on Midday but didn't say why...it's because I live on a sim that is running 24-hour cycle, so their night is my day (which makes my day black) and having little time I clicked Midday, clicked on the sun and moved the azimuth and got amazing results purely by accident within less than a few minutes, so that is why I recommended for someone else to try it.  I didn't feel like searching thru my inventory for some other lighting when I wasn't planning on staying home long.  I come across dark sims at times too and just click on Midday, click the lighting thing, click the sun, move the azimuth slider and it looks like the old windlight setting to me and it's pretty.   It just happened by being short on time.  Someone may get use out of the info.  It was not directed to you.  It's in the newest FS viewer, however.  It was also in the beta one just before this newest viewer.  

Edited September 21, 2022 by EliseAnne85

[Rowan Amore]

57 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I never said I run around using Midday.  

When Sid said he shut his ALM OFF, I assumed that's the default that turned on and that's why he said "Yikes!...and further said it looked ancient or whatever his particular wording was.  

I had said for dark sims, I turn on Midday but didn't say why...it's because I live on a sim that is running 24-hour cycle, so their night is my day (which makes my day black) and having little time I clicked Midday, clicked on the sun and moved the azimuth and got amazing results purely by accident within less than a few minutes, so that is why I recommended for someone else to try it.  I didn't feel like searching thru my inventory for some other lighting when I wasn't planning on staying home long.  I come across dark sims at times too and just click on Midday, click the lighting thing, click the sun, move the azimuth slider and it looks like the old windlight setting to me and it's pretty.   It just happened by being short on time.  Someone may get use out of the info.  It was not directed to you.  It's in the newest FS viewer, however.  It was also in the beta one just before this newest viewer.  

Yes, I understood.  But if you are making textures that look good in MIdday as you mentioned...

 

8 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

baking in bump and shine all into one texture not three but for Midday.  I disagree that those two textures I showed would look the same at Midday

 most people won't end up seeing it that way since very few people I know, at least, use Midday.  You'd be better off using something less harsh.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Rowan Amore

[Jaylinbridges]

2 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I had said for dark sims, I turn on Midday but didn't say why...it's because I live on a sim that is running 24-hour cycle, so their night is my day (which makes my day black)

Another way to make all the regions you visit daylight is to set your personal lighting for Water and Day Cycle to Default.  Then you can pick any sky you want from the dropdown list, just don't pick Midday.  I use Neutral for that blah no shadow look, but Nam's various EEPs are ok for daylight too, and they are right next to Neutral.  I also prefer Night to Midnight for basic nighttime.  I seldom use Shared Environment, since it's usually some dark foggy EEP that makes me search for a head lantern.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Jaylinbridges

[EliseAnne85]

10 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

 most people won't end up seeing it that way since very few people I know, at least, use Midday.  You'd be better off using something less harsh.

Okies, I understand what you are saying now.  The texture I showed was for a moon and just putting full bright through that flat, dull texture is the way SL was built back in the day and full bright still doesn't look good through the texture that way, in my view, it's still dull.

The thing is, each has their own view of what they see on their machine and that is the main reason I don't think they should make ALM mandatory.  Cost I understand.  Costs are a tough time and costs are a tough time for creator's too.  We have to put not only the time but the money up front before we even see if we will make any money.

I said in an early post of mine GLOW is not working now on most shared environments.  I have to turn glow off quite a lot.  Part of SL is tweaking to one's machine.

Sliders are the best for working lighting in SL.  That's what windlight had - sliders and it was easy and gorgeous.

Also, the Midday, click the lighting bar, then click around the sun until you see something you like, then move the Azimuth slider to a lighting you like is info for people who said their machine is running hot and they have ALM off.  Doing these steps I have laid out here are for those with ALM off.

I am using shared environments now because I want to see what people have.  And, see glow looks great with the environment they want to share but on my end I have to switch glow off.  It's too much glow on shared.  

To add the positive, most shared environments are a positive experience for me.

Edited September 21, 2022 by EliseAnne85

[EliseAnne85]

8 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Another way to make all the regions you visit daylight is to set your personal lighting for Water and Day Cycle to Default.  Then you can pick any sky you want from the dropdown list, just don't pick Midday.  I use Neutral for that blah no shadow look, but Nam's various EEPs are ok for daylight too, and they are right next to Neutral.  I also prefer Night to Midnight for basic nighttime.  I seldom use Shared Environment, since it's usually some dark foggy EEP that makes me search for a head lantern.

I'll have a look at it.

[Nalates Urriah]

Curious I tried turning ALM on and off in my copy of Firestorm v6.6.3. While there is huge visual difference inside my home there is almost no change in FPS. About 0.3FPS faster with ALM off.  Going outside I get similar results.

[Coffee Pancake]

The big upticks in rendering fidelity does not come from model and texture detail.

It comes from lighting.

But in SL we have either garbage lighting (pre ALM) or bad lighting (ALM)  .. this forces creators to compensate in ways that hurt performance or create content that can only look right when seen with a specific broken lighting model.

How SL looks is going to change. 

How SL performs is going to change.

Garbage content will look more garbage.

 

This is the price we must pay to move the platform forward. To not do this is nailing the lid on our coffin from the inside.

[Love Zhaoying]

17 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

in SL we have either garbage lighting (pre ALM) or bad lighting (ALM)

This makes choosing difficult!

[Love Zhaoying]

10 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Another way to make all the regions you visit daylight is to set your personal lighting for Water and Day Cycle to Default. 

I just press Ctrl-Shift-Y!

[Scylla Rhiadra]

31 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It comes from lighting.

This is true in another way as well. Projectors don't function as projectors unless you have ALM on. And that can sometimes make a big difference.

One of the things I'd like to see if this happens is more use of projectors in builds. God knows they ain't perfect, but they look better and perform more realistically than a standard point light.

[Rick Nightingale]

I often use projectors for doing illumination through stained glass windows (or an entire stained glass roof in my latest build). While they don't replicate time of day (I could move the projector but I usually don't bother) it's much better than just baking the texture onto the floor.