Could Linden Lab even clean up Second Life if they wanted to?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Solar Legion said:

Justification? Really? Can't see it?

I'll spell it out for you: We already have more than enough ways to get such information out there to begin with that such a system is unneeded. Full stop.

To be further clear: I am not interested in any debate on the matter, I held off on my view, thoughts and feelings. I voiced them.

Then don't debate! That's fine, Solar.

I disagree, and have given the reasons I disagree. (I have more.)

I still have yet to see one really cogent expression of a downside to this, as Rowan says.

[Solar Legion]

1 minute ago, Persephone Emerald said:

You think it's needless, but has it hurt the video gaming industry at all? or the movie industry? I don't need to be warned that a movie has an R rating, but I don't mind if it has a TV rating that says why it's not appropriate for children.

I don't think it was needless. It was needless.

Harm to the industry is irrelevant.

I got to watch as people who could not be bothered to do any actual parenting (among other things) had their hysterics and brought about a change that should not have happened. At all.

[Rowan Amore]

I just finished watching Mindhunter.  It's warning included one for Sexual Violence so if that bothered me, I had the option to not watch.

[Solar Legion]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Then don't debate! That's fine, Solar.

I disagree, and have given the reasons I disagree. (I have more.)

I still have yet to see one really cogent expression of a downside to this, as Rowan says.

We're on opposite ends of this with the same thoughts concerning the other, Scylla.

From where I sit, the issue is reversed: There's been no cogent expression concerning having such a system in addition to what is already present.

[Persephone Emerald]

9 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

except we are all adults.

I'm making an example regarding movie ratings. When one goes to a movie in a theater it has a G, PG, PG-13, R, or NR rating. When a movie or show airs on TV (or maybe this is just in parental guides) there are sometimes ratings such as "Smoking" "Drug Use" "Nudity" "Adult Themes". I'm saying such extra information doesn't bother me, and it might help someone else.

And being an adult, doesn't mean someone won't get triggered when they have PTSD!

Edited August 7, 2022 by Persephone Emerald

[Coffee Pancake]

16 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

except we are all adults.

So ... 

All modern media content goes to great lengths to inform consumers about the content contained therein. This might not be done explicitly though content warnings but visit any book shop - I bet you can tell the fantasy and romance apart just from the spine. This is all part of an established "code".

Judging a book by its cover is an intentional part of consuming books, they are deliberately coded so you can do that. This all breaks when you get something that combines genres .. eg Twilight, ostensibly a teen romance novel that's outwardly coded as horror.

Written explicit content warnings is about getting away from simpler thematic "coded" messages. 

It's a mistake to think of this as limiting or policing or protecting people. 

Picking up a horror novel and knowing (thanks to a content warning) it also contains explicit adult themes is a good thing for people who want adult themes mixed in with their monsters .. without spoiling anything.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Coffee Pancake

[Love Zhaoying]

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

given that they seem to be trying "clean up" SL's public image

Where did this idea start? Just because of the Metaverse "competition", and recent Forum "changes"? And the rather disappointing press?

I've been assuming any "cleanup" is just that, an "assumption".  And that the title of this thread is based on assumptions.

Did I miss something again? Reminder: comprehension-challenged here, so please try to use short words. (I'm smol.)

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Where did this idea start? Just because of the Metaverse "competition", and recent Forum "changes"? And the rather disappointing press?

I've been assuming any "cleanup" is just that, an "assumption".  And that the title of this thread is based on assumptions.

Did I miss something again? Reminder: comprehension-challenged here, so please try to use short words. (I'm smol.)

It is indeed an assumption, and largely speculative, as it's based on the fact that the forums are no longer open to the web.

I may well be wrong, although I'd add that the "cleanup," if it's happening at all, isn't about removing content, but rather about tidying up SL's outward face. In other words, it's PR.

If it's not happening, it really makes no material difference to this proposal. But I'd think that anything that LL can use to argue that they are "protecting" people from extreme content -- the kind of thing SL is frankly notorious for -- is going to be greeted with at least some positivity.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It is indeed an assumption, and largely speculative, as it's based on the fact that the forums are no longer open to the web.

I may well be wrong, although I'd add that the "cleanup," if it's happening at all, isn't about removing content, but rather about tidying up SL's outward face. In other words, it's PR.

If it's not happening, it really makes no material difference to this proposal. But I'd think that anything that LL can use to argue that they are "protecting" people from extreme content -- the kind of thing SL is frankly notorious for -- is going to be greeted with at least some positivity.

Thanks. It seems some of the threads lately have titles meant to spur discussion based on assumptions. <== This is said without being judgey.

[Quistess Alpha]

10 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

the forums are no longer open to the web.

Many of the sub-forums can't be seen without being logged in, but some can, like "favorite destinations" and "fashion" (but not "your avatar") for example.

[Solar Legion]

some sections of the forum should never have been open to the web as a whole to begin with.

Finally correcting that has little to do with a theoretical sale - as does the "changes" to the posting guidelines.

[Rowan Amore]

24 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It is indeed an assumption, and largely speculative, as it's based on the fact that the forums are no longer open to the web.

The only sections closed to the general.public are People and Adult.  Everything else is visible without logging in.

[Quistess Alpha]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Everything else is visible without logging in.

Check again, general discussion (for example) is not visible, although you can see a preview of what the last post was.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

For anyone who doesn't know what Dolcett is and doesn't want to traumatize themselves with a google search.

om nom nom nom nookie. 

[Coffee Pancake]

48 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Where did this idea start? Just because of the Metaverse "competition", and recent Forum "changes"? And the rather disappointing press?

I've been assuming any "cleanup" is just that, an "assumption".  And that the title of this thread is based on assumptions.

Did I miss something again? Reminder: comprehension-challenged here, so please try to use short words. (I'm smol.)

LL are not a nimble company. Nothing happens on a whim.

don't fix something that isn't broken

don't fix something that is broken unless there is some need / motivation

don't fix anything unless the motivation is sufficiently pressing or important

 

[Luna Bliss]

I just know I'd prefer not to land in a sim where women are being roasted, ground up, and eaten.

Always women.  Men don't taste good or something?

Anyway, whatever people are doing on this thread to help prevent that you have my vote.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

I just know I'd prefer not to land in a sim where women are being roasted, ground up, and eaten.

Always women.  Men don't taste good or something?

Anyway, whatever people are doing on this thread to help prevent that you have my vote.

too lean, not enough soft bits.. I mean, seriously, 99.999% of all men in SL are hard core body builders. Women have the soft curves. And they change their clothing, would you honestly want to eat someone who hasn't changed their outfit in 5 years?

[Rowan Amore]

33 minutes ago, Quistess Alpha said:

Check again, general discussion (for example) is not visible, although you can see a preview of what the last post was.

General Discussions falls under the People section which is not visible unless logged in.  Your Avatar, Make Friends, Role Play, etc are all under People.

[Seicher Rae]

12 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

General Discussions falls under the People section which is not visible unless logged in.  Your Avatar, Make Friends, Role Play, etc are all under People.

And I just had that happen, as it sometimes does, and it still makes me have a momentary panic attack "oh my gawd! I'm locked out! Now what did I do? I've been banned" ... pause ... pause ... oh. Right. Never mind.

[Seicher Rae]

I've just scrolled through a lot on this thread, and surprisingly for me, I'm going to post semi-adjacent to the naysayers. No, wait! Hear me out. I do happen to think what we are discussing, the expanded sim ratings from  merely A to A-dash-some word, is good. In theory. In my head it works perfectly.

But seeing it batted about, with "no, just one, for violence" makes so little difference that why bother. Check boxes are too complicated, says some, and let's discuss in minute detail how to implement this thing. And...

Why? It is never going to happen. I mean, ok, fine if you want to but I don't see the point in workshopping it down into the weeds. Let alone arguing about it.

And I'm a bit concerned about the concept of "cleaning up SL." The thing I was talking about, that works great in my head, doesn't have a darn thing about getting rid of behaviors between consenting adults, and we're all supposed to be adults here.  I said it earlier, that whatever whoever (adult) is doing in SL is fine with me as long as I don't have to see it.

To me, knowing "nudity" is ok on a sim might be useful. If it is just nudity I might be too bored with that. Or maybe I'm looking to take a photo of me with my clothes off. Who knows? I also know that BDSM is different than violence, but a lot of people don't, and that could be problematic.

Some people could use the designations to help them with PTSD or other issues. But I sure as heck wish people would stop throwing around the word "trigger." You look like jerks when you do it inappropriately, and normally I just sit back and get amused when people make ***holes of themselves—needing no help from me, but good grief. Get educated. (And btw, no Scylla this isn't about that one post I already flagged and we've dealt with.)

I don't think SL should be cleaned up, except if actual, RL minors are here, get rid of them. I think there's a lot to be said for the wonky Libertarian Utopian dream that this place was trying to be. (And they soon learned didn't quite work out the way they had hoped.) I do think there are things that could be done better. I do think that's a lot of pipe dreams. I have PTSD x infinity. I don't like being triggered. I don't think I ever have been IN world.  What we need are trigger warnings for some posters... but that's a different thread.

ETA: Also wasn't thrilled to see the ad hominem of "no common sense" thrown around just because you disagree with something. Considering the folks doing the discussing, and how long I've known most of them, I'm pretty confident that they have plenty of intelligence and common sense. Just because something is unlikely to be implemented doesn't mean it is of no merit.

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Seicher Rae

[Love Zhaoying]

4 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

I'm going to post semi-adjacent to the naysayers.

Cool! Finally, some relative sense is added to counter all the negative naybobs! 

I will carefully read your post and reply!

4 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

No, wait! Hear me out.

Just don't ask us to fill out a survey, we'll have none of that. Unless there's cookies. But seriously, no need to "wait", it's not like we're going anyplace. This is the place to be for this type of "General Discussion", from what I've seen.

4 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

I do happen to think what we are discussing, the expanded sim ratings from  merely A to A-dash-some word, is good. In theory. In my head it works perfectly.

I think it's good too, in theory. That doesn't mean it is, or is not good in "practice" as they say. When you're not busy, can I trouble you to look at my head? Something in there's not working quite right. All these discussions give me a haddock, or a headache, or something that is either alliterative or rhymes.

4 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

But seeing it batted about, with "no, just one, for violence" makes so little difference that why bother. Check boxes are too complicated, says some, and let's discuss in minute detail how to implement this thing. And...

Well, since you asked (and you didn't), check boxes are not the only options. You can also have a pull down menu with multiple options. Or "movie ratings" equivalences. Or "fill in the blank".

4 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

Why? It is never going to happen. I mean, ok, fine if you want to but I don't see the point in workshopping it down into the weeds. Let alone arguing about it.

Great point. Why are we talking about it? I thought it's a "thought experiment", that may result in a "feature request", but maybe I thought wrong. I told you something's not quote right, I mean quite right in the thread, I mean in my head. 
 

4 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

And I'm a bit concerned about the concept of "cleaning up SL." The thing I was talking about, that works great in my head, doesn't have a darn thing about getting rid of behaviors between consenting adults, and we're all supposed to be adults here.  I said it earlier, that whatever whoever (adult) is doing in SL is fine with me as long as I don't have to see it.

Wait, I thought we were just discussing the options. But yeah, "cleaning up SL" is the topic, it's in the title. So we put you down as "No, thanks?"

4 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

To me, knowing "nudity" is ok on a sim might be useful. If it is just nudity I might be too bored with that. Or maybe I'm looking to take a photo of me with my clothes off. Who knows? I also know that BDSM is different than violence, but a lot of people don't, and that could be problematic.

Well, to be honest, I thought the current ratings system addressed all this. Maybe? Maybe not.

4 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

Some people could use the designations to help them with PTSD or other issues. But I sure as heck wish people would stop throwing around the word "trigger." You look like jerks when you do it inappropriately, and normally I just sit back and get amused when people make ***holes of themselves—needing no help from me, but good grief. Get educated. (And btw, no Scylla this isn't about that one post I already flagged and we've dealt with.)

Yes, sure. You'll get no disagreement from me! I wouldn't want to see anything that affects my own issues - I'd rather stick to "G" areas and my own parcel first. Ok, we've covered this. Go on.

4 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

I don't think SL should be cleaned up, except if actual, RL minors are here, get rid of them. I think there's a lot to be said for the wonky Libertarian Utopian dream that this place was trying to be. (And they soon learned didn't quite work out the way they had hoped.) I do think there are things that could be done better. I do think that's a lot of pipe dreams. I have PTSD x infinity. I don't like being triggered. I don't think I ever have been IN world.  What we need are trigger warnings for some posters... but that's a different thread.

Wait, so..never mind (caught myself, so much "T-word usage", it felt weird). Anyway, this means you're ok with things as they are now, right? And that new thread, I hope it's more on-topic than this one, the title just seemed to not match the discussion! You know, like if your curtains don't match your drapes, shoes don't match your handbag, or if someone posts an off-topic rant that makes us all upset. Etcetera.

4 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

ETA: Also wasn't thrilled to see the ad hominem of "no common sense" thrown around just because you disagree with something. Considering the folks doing the discussing, and how long I've known most of them, I'm pretty confident that they have plenty of intelligence and common sense. Just because something is unlikely to be implemented doesn't mean it is of no merit.

I'm sure the "No common sense" ad hominem breaks more rules of debate than I know, and introduced arguments containing standard fallacies that I don't know the words for. Hopefully, someone will point those out, I always learn from them. (Guess I better lookup "ad hominem" to better understand how that applies while I'm at it, as I don't use that phrase a lot.)

 Anyway, yeah I agree - when presented with "it will never happen because X", just "solve for X". We know maths. As for merit, it's all good. There's no "absolute" merit in my opinion; I'm not one of those "well, if it's not good it must be bad, so let's attack it", "everything is black or white", "must attack all things I disagree with", "let's talk it to death", "gotta have the last word in an argument" kind of people.  "Those people are just wrong." Oh, I don't like it when people say that, either. 

[Theresa Tennyson]

8 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

except we are all adults.

Of course we are...

[Love Zhaoying]

12 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

8 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

except we are all adults.

Of course we are...

Adulting is so tedious. We need a game or something to make it more fun.

[Marianne Little]

When I hear terms like "Explicit violence" "Extreme violence and "Sexualized violence", I believe every one has their own opinion of what this stand for.

And here we open up for region owners/ club owners/ roleplay places who will selfcensor and add more and more rules and warnings, because they are visited by a goodie Karen that say "This must you warn about, or else I will tattle to Linden Lab and they close your place and ban you from SL".

Who knows if LL agree, and this is another thing that all took for granted in violent roleplay for 5 years ago? But need a warning now?

Even an unjustified ban by SL that can be appealed and the place opened again, hurt people who pay for land or have stores in SL.

I know I would be so stressed if I had a place that cold trigger someone, anyone, that I would close the place, maybe leave SL. Even putting up all sort of warnings, would not make me feel safe that this was my land, and I would not lose it.

I have spent thousands of real money in SL, but when it is not giving me any joy, I would take that loss and say it was fun as long it lasted.

[Da5id Weatherwax]

I think the biggest reason that LL "Can't clean up SL" - not and have SL survive anyway - is that there is no consensus among residents what situations or behaviours should be left alone and what should be "cleaned up".

There are very limited categories which LL, by virtue of the law they operate under, must act against when they become aware of it. Outside those categories what's allowed is up to the parcel owner, provided it falls within the region rating system.

This has both benefits and detriments to the average resident, of course. With very few exceptions it's possible to find somewhere - or even quite a lot of somewheres - where however you want to behave or present yourself is considered ok. That comes with a corollary that it's a matter of caveat visitor - if you don't like what is considered ok there it's on you to leave, not try and change the place.

There are things that will earn an instant permaban from any parcel I control that other folks are perfectly ok with in their spaces. Their place, their rules, I just wont be visiting them there even if we get on fine when meeting elsewhere on the grid. One of the greatest things about SL is the opportunity it presents to be free from "gratuitous judgement" by the folks who think THEIR moral compass, their code of ethics or honour, is the only valid one and spend inordinate amounts of their RL time trying to impose it on others. In SL, you'll find places where THEY are on the banlist and you're not.

If SL loses this it will wither. And if LL try to "clean it up" then either they will fail or SL will lose that extreme diversity - not just of avatars and personae but of social models too.