1 second Orb timing, is it necessary

[Silent Mistwalker]

43 minutes ago, Orwar said:

If you don't want explorers, drivers, or pilots to pass through your own virtual property, don't buy property that's part of the greater online world - go hide your sociophobic butt in a private region. 

Oh man... you just got your Misanthrope Anonymous membership yoinked.

[Luna Bliss]

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

I confess to not having read all the posts that precede mine, but I did see a few things I wanted to comment on.

Probably should have ..

1 hour ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

Why is it amusing? Many people, of which I am one, welcome people exploring their houses.

I'm glad making your home a public brings you pleasure, that is your choice to make. I did the same when I had my own region for many years.

However. It is always my choice concerning who to welcome into any of my locations in SL.

1 hour ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

Since I can be in SL only a small fraction of the time, it seems wasteful to have no one enjoying it the rest of the time. It makes me happy for others to enjoy it, and I don't understand people who want to keep visitors out. I am puzzled. How can they mess with my stuff in SL?

That is very generous, however I do not wish to log into my home (that I am paying for, even when I am not using it), and have to kick random strangers out of my bed .. as I have had to do. 

As someone who has been stalked and harassed in SL, I  have very low tolerance for random people in my personal spaces, especially people who presume they have some right to be there.

[Gabriele Graves]

14 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Ah yes, even more expected hyperbole from the Vehicular enthusiast and "Exploration" advocates ...

I am a vehicle enthusiast and an exploration advocate but vehemently disagree with the sentiments expressed about having rights to go where people don't want you to go on their land.

It is disingenuous for anyone to attempt to make the argument that there aren't enough public places to do both of those things in heaps without needing LL to mandate public access over private land as a solution.

People, just use the public spaces and generously granted public access land and avoid those places you are having many problems with.  Problem solved, nothing else needed.

[Codex Alpha]

15 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I am a vehicle enthusiast and an exploration advocate but vehemently disagree with the sentiments expressed about having rights to go where people don't want you to go on their land.

No one is advocating for this.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Codex Alpha

[Dyna Mole]

Hey, gang! Things are starting to get a bit personal. 

Before you hit the button to make your next post, please ask whether you are about to make a worthy contribution to the thread.  If you're tossing angry words or overreacting to a personal comment, count to ten and then back away from the button.   Discussion is fine.  Personal argument and inflammatory language are not.

[Solar Legion]

Right on time/cue ...

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Orwar said:

   Wow, there's actually people who think that the mainland shouldn't be accessible for exploration\

It is accessible, it has public roads, waterways and innumerable public builds. Just like real life.

However, there is mixed in with that a whole lot of private and personal spaces. Just like real life.

Your ability to "explore" in SL is no different. You don't get to randomly enter private houses.

42 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   I haven't seen anyone advocating permitting people to squat in your home, all anyone has been asking for is the common courtesy for a head's up and the opportunity to get off of your land by their own accord before they're thrown out. 

Truly fortunate you haven't had to deal with this to the point its become an actual problem and a orb was the best solution.

Don't forget that for people who rent mainland, a security orb is their ONLY option for any parcel privacy. Are you suggesting people who rent are just SOL?

42 minutes ago, Orwar said:

Because it's Mainland

If mainland came with a right of way for random "explorers" then it would be in the covenant or baked into the platforms rules. It isn't. It has been confirmed many times that security orbs are acceptable, even ones that eject or port home with zero delay, on mainland.

You will note that Belli has different rules and is far more "explorer" friendly, they even go as far as to ban 3rd party orbs entirely.

Could it be you've been working with an incorrect assumption about mainland all along?

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Coffee Pancake

[Codex Alpha]

5 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It is accessible, it has public roads, waterways and innumerable public builds. Just like real life.

However, there is mixed in with that a whole lot of private and personal spaces. Just like real life.

Your ability to "explore" in SL is no different. You don't get to randomly enter private houses.

Truly fortunate you haven't had to deal with this to the point its become an actual problem and a orb was the best solution.

Don't forget that for people who rent mainland, a security orb is their ONLY option for any parcel privacy. Are you suggesting people who rent are just SOL?

If mainland came with a right of way for random "explorers" then it would be in the covenant or baked into the platforms rules. It isn't. It has been confirmed many times that security orbs are acceptable, even ones that eject or port home with zero delay, on mainland.

You will note that Belli has different rules and is far more "explorer" friendly, they even go as far as to ban 3rd party orbs entirely.

Could it be you've been working with an incorrect assumption about mainland all along?

Just set your eject delay to a more reasonable time frame, so that people aren't sniped as they go by, through over. You still haven't made an argument as to why you need a 0 second delay and why you are entitled to cause someone to be ejected right back to their home - losing their place and progress in the world.

No one wants to deny you the tools to protect your privacy, nor do they advocate free access to your land, none of that. Are you purposefully ignoring this point, or are just responding as you see fit?

I am proposing that

1) O second delays be disallowed, perhaps to a minimum of 15 seconds.

2) It's probably LL's side that I would advocate that I am ejected to a nearby parcel or home parcel in each region

Do you disagree with these two propositions? If so , why? You've made a lot of responses but never to these points made.

Unless you want to stick with 'just because', well then...

[Jaylinbridges]

4 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

A friend of mine was wondering if anyone in here knows where someone might be able to buy a really big fridge?

No, none that I have seen come with a built in zero second security orb...

[Love Zhaoying]

I've said It several times and even agreed with Codex: just make an option to push/move avatars to a safe public zone instead of teleporting them home.  I even suggested it myself in another thread, also agreeing then with Codex.  

I think the "reasonable" part of the suggestions get lost in the approach.  Which is a shame, it's so hard to find a good, reasonable request. 

[Rowan Amore]

56 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

A buffer between roads/waterways and private parcels would 100% help with this issue

This is how.it is on Horizons.  There's the road, the sidewalk and a buffer between the sidewalk and where my property starts.  Quite a bit of leeway for anyone driving by.  Not that many people do.as it's not actually "mainland" mainland.  

 

As it's also an adult mainland, I've had several people TP to me both on the ground and to my platform from various adult businesses in the area. Maybe Codex never encountered that problem since it does seem to happen more to women

[Coffee Pancake]

11 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Just set your eject delay to a more reasonable time frame, so that people aren't sniped as they go by, through over. You still haven't made an argument as to why you need a 0 second delay and why you are entitled to cause someone to be ejected right back to their home - losing their place and progress in the world.

No one wants to deny you the tools to protect your privacy, nor do they advocate free access to your land, none of that. Are you purposefully ignoring this point, or are just responding as you see fit?

I am proposing that

1) O second delays be disallowed, perhaps to a minimum of 15 seconds.

2) It's probably LL's side that I would advocate that I am ejected to a nearby parcel or home parcel in each region

Do you disagree with these two propositions? If so , why? You've made a lot of responses but never to these points made.

Unless you want to stick with 'just because', well then...

I propose that "explorers" take a moment to find out if the parcel they are about to enter is a public or private space, and if the later, respect the owner and avoid it entirely.

Any unwanted intrusion is a violation of privacy. There is no minimum time required for something to become a a violation.

Leave now means right now.

You are advocating a right to roam and the end result of which is the right of every rando to walk into your property under the guise of being an "explorer", invade your privacy and personal space for a certain amount of time requiring the home owner to make generous presumptions about their intent.

No means no. Even in SL.

[Arielle Popstar]

18 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Don't forget that for people who rent mainland, a security orb is their ONLY option for any parcel privacy. Are you suggesting people who rent are just SOL?

If mainland came with a right of way for random "explorers" then it would be in the covenant or baked into the platforms rules. It isn't. It has been confirmed many times that security orbs are acceptable, even ones that eject or port home with zero delay, on mainland.

You will note that Belli has different rules and is far more "explorer" friendly, they even go as far as to ban 3rd party orbs entirely.

Could it be you've been working with an incorrect assumption about mainland all along?

So use a security orb at 15 seconds and if someone is invading your space when you are there, kick them manually. That at least gives them a few extra seconds to try to get off your property. If you can't kick them, then sure there ae orbs that have a manual way to do it with a script.

Consistency across the platform would be a nice thing so if Belisario has been mandated with 15 seconds then nothing wrong with asking for the same consistency for the rest. Doesn't the Lab have some motto where they strive for a consistent user experience? Seems to me this is a perfect area for them to practice what they are preaching.

Speaking of practicing and preaching, I find it interesting that the ones who are the most extreme here about demanding their private property rights, are also the one's who on another platform want to see individual private property rights removed because well, private property is theft, according to their mantra.

[Love Zhaoying]

One of these days, we're going to find out that most trespassers were merely attempting to inquire politely if we had any Grey Poupon.

[Orwar]

12 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It is accessible, it has public roads, waterways and innumerable public builds. Just like real life.

   Do you have anti-air cannons that blast aeroplanes or helicopters out of the sky if they happen to pass over your RL property? Because in SL, people essentially do (sometimes literally - or simply put large transparent prims in the air to knock out aircraft).

13 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Don't forget that for people who rent mainland, a security orb is their ONLY option for any parcel privacy. Are you suggesting people who rent are just SOL?

   Hardly, I've repeatedly stated that I don't think that people should be forced to have their parcels open for the public to loiter in - but there's a huge difference in someone passing by for a few seconds as they're making their way across the virtual world in a vehicle, and someone entering your home to browse the naughty poses in your bedroom furniture - the only thing I've asked for as far as the orbs are concerned, is that people are given enough time to evacuate the parcel before their trip is cut short. 15 seconds are, 99/100 times, more than ample time for you to pass through or reroute - most of the time you don't use anywhere near the full 15 seconds to do so either; if you're going at 30 km/h, you're moving 8.3 meters per second, if you've got a 1024 sqm plot of land which is perfectly square, you're through in 3.85 seconds (assuming you're crossing it straight along the X or Y axis). 

   And people rather seldom go as slow as 30 km/h, as far as I've seen (speed cameras around the mainland tend to go off if you go >30 km/h - and they usually are quite busy!).

18 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Could it be you've been working with an incorrect assumption about mainland all along?

   No - Bellisseria has, however, shown that LL are trying to find a balance between ensuring privacy and accommodating exploration. I see no reason why the covenant they made for that continent couldn't be applied to any other mainland (aside of course from that they don't seem too keen on actually enforcing it even just in Bellisseria). 

   You can still ban griefers, home invaders, creepers, and stalkers from entering your Linden Home parcels, you can still hide yourself from being seen or heard by anyone not on your land - there's absolutely no shortage of privacy in Bellisseria, so why would the covenant being extended to the other continents suddenly bereave people of privacy? It's a proof of concept, that ban lines and hyper-aggressive orbs aren't necessary. 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

I actually wish security orbs could be made more sensitive to detect the difference between an accidental TP via a defunct landmark (which surely happens to all of us on occasion) or someone taking a casual stroll through the garden to check out the landscaping and walking up to say hi vs. cam sitting into your whooooole house.

The first two scenarios I would never mind at all if I had a home on ground level. By all means, romp through the garden and approach my front door/window with a "Hi how are ya!" and give me a chance to greet you and come outside or invite you in - or take a minute to get your bearings after a bad TP - but cam sitting into private homes really grinds my gears. It's so rude.

I guess that's doable with a tiny range setting, but I'd prefer having different options for each range.

 

[Luna Bliss]

33 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

I am proposing that

1) O second delays be disallowed, perhaps to a minimum of 15 seconds.

2) It's probably LL's side that I would advocate that I am ejected to a nearby parcel or home parcel in each region

Do you disagree with these two propositions? If so , why? You've made a lot of responses but never to these points made.

Unless you want to stick with 'just because', well then...

As an explorer I've accidentally veered into private property that booted me home. Realizing I infringed a boundary where someone owned their home and set clear boundaries regarding who was permitted to enter, I TP'd back to the general area if it was an interesting one and continued my journey. The thought never crossed my mind to ask them to change their boundaries for me, or to cause me to invade some other parcel on the sim rather than direct me to my own home (per your 2nd suggestion).

As an explorer I would certainly rather be given a warning so I could fly away quickly and continue on my journey without such disruption, but I'm aware there are many griefers and invaders of homes, and that more than likely it was set so strictly so the home owner would not be forced to deal with an invader for even 15 seconds. Forcing them to deal with an annoying invader is far worse than me having a minor disruption during my exploration.

I don't think you recognize or admit it's a problem -- these invaders. You accused people of exaggerating the issue or making SL'ers out to be creeps by voicing their displeasure over it earlier in the thread, demonstrating you just don't get it is very bothersome for some people and they have a right to complain and set boundaries so they aren't affected by it. It's like you can't believe it's a problem for them just because you don't experience it, or else think they should handle the situation the way you do or imagine you would. But everyone is not you, or like you, nor should they be.  Boundaries, Codex. 

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Orwar said:

Do you have anti-air cannons that blast aeroplanes or helicopters out of the sky if they happen to pass over your RL property?

Sometimes I wish! The 3am helicopters hovering overhead get very, very annoying. There was one this morning even. 

[Coffee Pancake]

3 minutes ago, Orwar said:

simply put large transparent prims in the air to knock out aircraft).

That would be a pretty big indication that an aircraft is not welcome on their land. Yet "explorers" persist.

How exciting.

3 minutes ago, Orwar said:

Hardly, I've repeatedly stated that I don't think that people should be forced to have their parcels open for the public to loiter in

Just the tip.

3 minutes ago, Orwar said:

but there's a huge difference in someone passing by for a few seconds as they're making their way across the virtual world in a vehicle

There is no way any such difference can be assumed. If you have been stalked or harassed in SL, every single unknown person entering your personal space is a threat.

It's only for a minute.

3 minutes ago, Orwar said:

You can still ban griefers, home invaders, creepers, and stalkers from entering your Linden Home parcels

How, exactly, do you propose one tell the difference between a harmless "explorer" and creeper or stalker.

Hi, how r u?

3 minutes ago, Orwar said:

you can still hide yourself from being seen or heard by anyone not on your land

Which is defeated the instant someone enters your parcel boundary, not a few seconds later or depending on them being a nice person.

 

 

[Codex Alpha]

24 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

As an explorer I've accidentally veered into private property that booted me home. Realizing I infringed a boundary where someone owned their home and set clear boundaries regarding who was permitted to enter, I TP'd back to the general area if it was an interesting one and continued my journey. The thought never crossed my mind to ask them to change their boundaries for me, or to cause me to invade some other parcel on the sim rather than direct me to my own home (per your 2nd suggestion).

My position was to set the eject orb to a reasonable delay to give time for people to leave the parcel whether they flew over it, into it, tp'd into it, purposefully entered it - as it is a reasonable thing to do for most occasions, and that you wouldn't be effectively 'sniping' people as they do.

I and NO ONE has advocated the removal of your boundaries,  your privacy or any right or entitlement to explore your property.

I also proposed that if ejecting to a nearby parcel was not possible (with programming it's not hard), then perhaps a dedicated safe area in the region, so that one does not lose their place.

The owner of a 0 delay orb (sometimes even rigged with insta-ban) is not simply 'directing' one home, but forcefully causing them to teleport right out of the region. With that much power, comes some responsibility and some courtesy.

0 second ejects + teleport someone home severely inhibits one's reasonable enjoyment of the Mainland regions.

You still haven't told me why you believe 0 ejects and tp's home are completely necessary, and to the exclusion of any middle solution.

24 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

As an explorer I would certainly rather be given a warning so I could fly away quickly and continue on my journey without such disruption.

Good, so we agree. Give people ample warning, and that was all that was asked.

24 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

but I'm aware there are many griefers and invaders of homes, and that more than likely it was set so strictly so the home owner would not be forced to deal with an invader for even 15 seconds. Forcing them to deal with an annoying invader is far worse than me having a minor disruption during my exploration.

Yet 15 seconds would be reasonable, and would still have the same effect and result that you want. I'm pretty sure orbs also have functions that will permanently ban someone who is repeatedly and clearly entering your parcel with ill intentions.

Count to 15, see how long it is. What can an 'invader' or even the most hostile person do in 15 seconds to anything or you on  your parcel?

Again, if you feel that SL is so hostile in that matter, and that you are constantly being annoyed, harassed, assaulted and put upon, perhaps a public area is not for you, and you would be a prime candidate for a private server, or even a 'on demand' world like Sansar provides, where you can block everyone from ever coming in. The ultimate privacy.

24 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I don't think you recognize or admit it's a problem -- these invaders. You accused people of exaggerating the issue or making SL'ers out to be creeps by voicing their displeasure over it earlier in the thread, demonstrating you just don't get it is very bothersome for some people and they have a right to complain and set boundaries so they aren't affected by it. It's like you can't believe it's a problem for them just because you don't experience it, or else think they should handle the situation the way you do or imagine you would. But everyone is not you, or like you, nor should they be.  Boundaries, Codex. 

I don't know all about that.

My position was about eject orb delays and how they could be tweaked so that everyone on both sides are happy.

13 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

There is no way any such difference can be assumed. If you have been stalked or harassed in SL, every single unknown person entering your personal space is a threat.

How, exactly, do you propose one tell the difference between a harmless "explorer" and creeper or stalker.

You are a prime candidate for private spaces away from Mainland and the rest of the majority of Second Lifers.

What you want is a 'safe space'. The problem is that it is impossible to guarantee a safe space for everyone, and if a governance tries, that means everyone else has to change their complete way of doing things, in order to accommodate the person who needs it. It is an incredibly selfish stance to take, and comes at great cost (especially in real life) when a 'safe space' must be guaranteed for everyone at all times - so that no one can do or say or act on anything.

The solution for you is to seek a private server for yourself.

Or you can simply and more easily set your eject orb to 15 seconds. Thanks. Now continue on with  your SL day and have fun.

 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Codex Alpha

[Rowan Amore]

6 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

so we agree

You keep saying that but those you've quoted actually aren't agreeing with your proposal.  It would be nice if people did allow time but no one you've quoted seems to want it to be a new requirement.   

 

[Rowan Amore]

13 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Again, if you feel that SL is so hostile in that matter, and that you are constantly being annoyed, harassed, assaulted and put upon, perhaps a public area is not for you

I could say the same back at you.  If 0 second orbs annoy you, perhaps mainland isn't the place for you.

[Coffee Pancake]

11 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

You are a prime candidate for private spaces away from Mainland and the rest of the majority of Second Lifers.

What you want is a 'safe space'. The problem is that it is impossible to guarantee a safe space for everyone, and if a governance tries, that means everyone else has to change their complete way of doing things, in order to accommodate the person who needs it. It is an incredibly selfish stance to take, and comes at great cost (especially in real life) when a 'safe space' must be guaranteed for everyone at all times - so that no one can do or say or act on anything.

The problem is not my desire to be spared the unwelcome intrusions of people who obviously have no concept of boundaries at all.

Talking like the entire concept of respecting other people's space and privacy is just weird and alien.

YIKES

 

[Jennifer Boyle]

Almost all of my experience with security orbs has been getting shot down while flying over Zindra.

Reading messages in this thread has caused me to think of them in a different context. Many times over the years, I have noticed that I had a new neighbor and that they were home. I have walked over to their front door and said, "/me knocks on the door," mimicing what I would do IRL.

I suppose, lest they have a security orb set to zero delay, that I need to be sure to stand in the road and not enter their land to "knock on the door."