With Philip Rosendale returning to advise on SL I thought I might return. Should I? If so why?

[Mollymews]

2 hours ago, SarahKB7 Koskinen said:

Philip's surname is Rosedale, not Rosendale.

i think that pic might go in the Then and Now thread

2022 for the avatar on the left and 2003 for the avatar on the right

altho is quite a nice avatar, the 2022 one, might look a bit better if they turned on their facial expressions hud 😺

 

Edited May 11, 2022 by Mollymews
bit

[Misty Rookstown]

4 hours ago, Codex Alpha said:

They kinda had plans, but the resident Second Lifers would not entertain it. Many here have sunken a lot of work into their worlds, shops, marketplaces, and presumably their livings - and anything that would threaten that they will actively fight against.

There was an LL platform with new technology, new engine, PBR workflow, marketplace, ability for events, free worlds with 4km square of space to do as you dreamed - and many SL'ers actively voiced against it - when it could have been a modern platform they could have easily and slowly transitioned to with a few texture changes and model updates. Some did, but not enough.

it was suitable for desktoppers with no need to enter VR if you didn't have it. My entire experience in this new platform was from desktop.

So now I guess this is what you get. Outdated engine, outdated work flows, etc, and laggy as hell as a result, but I guess they're going to try to keep beating a dead horse.

For many Second Life remains a place to be, but not so much do new users feel the same, compared to other offerings out there. If a competitor rises with the same features, but more affordable access for all, etc then they might be in trouble.

For changes and for updated and specialized experiences is why I think a new approach to a browser needs to be worked on. A browser which has the upper or master browser that accesses other browsers. So you can make drastic changes if not an entirely new world say optimized to be a true MMO RPG sim that for example uses the unreal engine as it's technology to interact with that RPG world (just examples for making a point) but can still access the classic second life but be mostly seamless in it's transitioning not much different than teleporting from one sim to another. Think Multiverse versus universe with a universe being what we have now. Effectively it sounds a bit what Zuckerberg has in mind. I thought this idea many years ago though. It shouldn't upset Second Lifers that much as they don't want to see what they built go away but it would allow for movement into the future. The browsers would just hand off to other browsers with the upper browser being the shell of a sorts. If they did this and kept it accessible some of the RPG game worlds in SL now could jump way ahead and pull in a lot more people if it is on par with what people expect.

[Misty Rookstown]

4 hours ago, SarahKB7 Koskinen said:

Philip's surname is Rosedale, not Rosendale.

forgive my typo

[Misty Rookstown]

4 hours ago, diamond Marchant said:

I like this thread because it deals with existential issues...

Some random existential questions in no particular order...

1. Why did "an investment group led by Randy Waterfield and Brad Oberwager" acquire Linden Research, Inc. in 2020? Why is Brad an Executive Chairman (salaried top boss)? Why was was Ebbe never replaced as CEO? What is the exit strategy for the investment group?

2. Why would anyone purchase Linden Lab? Cash cow? Brand? User base? Proprietary IP? Employees with unique skill set? Plans to monetize something?

3. Do you really own anything in Second Life? Should Second Life close, what happens to all the stuff we bought?

4. Do Second Life residents have "low expectations"? Is "not crashing" or "being able to walk in a crowd" enough?

5. Is Linden Lab critically understaffed? Is Brad keeping expenses down? Why does governance take so long to address obvious problems? Why is Bellisseria being built so S L O W L Y?

6. Why do Second Life residents (including me) bristle when Second Life is called a game? Is it because we see our avatars as ourselves, not game tokens?

7. Is Philip Rosedale's current association with Linden Lab just a PR thing?

That was fun 🙂

I "bristle" when Second Life is called a game myself because ... well I own a game store. Previously one in SL but now one in real life. Games have some form of objectives, win conditions, structure and some form of end winner. Even so called Sandbox games have some of these things. Second Life is basically tools and a blank slate to create and socialize. People call it a game because they don't know what else to call it I think. It has some trappings of a MMO RPG but without structure, goals and the like it is like that scene in the Empire Strikes Back. Luke goes into the cave and says to Yoda "What's in there" Yoda replies "Only what you take with you". Which is a fair description of Second Life. 

[Codex Alpha]

33 minutes ago, Misty Rookstown said:

I "bristle" when Second Life is called a game myself because ... well I own a game store. Previously one in SL but now one in real life. Games have some form of objectives, win conditions, structure and some form of end winner. Even so called Sandbox games have some of these things. Second Life is basically tools and a blank slate to create and socialize. People call it a game because they don't know what else to call it I think. It has some trappings of a MMO RPG but without structure, goals and the like it is like that scene in the Empire Strikes Back. Luke goes into the cave and says to Yoda "What's in there" Yoda replies "Only what you take with you". Which is a fair description of Second Life. 

Sure, but no one I know in my network of 'gamers' care if it's officially a game or not. They still refer to it as a game, and there's no point arguing about it, or saying otherwise. They either like it and stay, or they don't, and they're not, because perhaps they like most are actually looking for games, interactivity, and interesting worlds to visit, and to do it without lag and with modern looking interfaces, models and worlds.

[animats]

The poster is complaining that the social features of SL don't work very well. They have a point. Group messages remain unreliable. The search tools aren't very good. Voice is still unreliable. Those problems should have been fixed by now. Those problems are mostly outside the 3D world, and can be fixed by people who aren't deep into the innards of the sim servers.

Many older users don't need those features, but them being broken is an obstacle to new user retention.

[Rolig Loon]

55 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

1 hour ago, Misty Rookstown said:

I "bristle" when Second Life is called a game myself because ... well I own a game store. Previously one in SL but now one in real life. Games have some form of objectives, win conditions, structure and some form of end winner. Even so called Sandbox games have some of these things. Second Life is basically tools and a blank slate to create and socialize. People call it a game because they don't know what else to call it I think. It has some trappings of a MMO RPG but without structure, goals and the like it is like that scene in the Empire Strikes Back. Luke goes into the cave and says to Yoda "What's in there" Yoda replies "Only what you take with you". Which is a fair description of Second Life. 

Sure, but no one I know in my network of 'gamers' care if it's officially a game or not. They still refer to it as a game, and there's no point arguing about it, or saying otherwise. They either like it and stay, or they don't, and they're not, because perhaps they like most are actually looking for games, interactivity, and interesting worlds to visit, and to do it without lag and with modern looking interfaces, models and worlds.

And that incidentally makes the good point that the RPG communities in SL are active but are a rather small minority in the total population. The word "game" strikes most residents as inappropriate for describing the world they know.  The closest they may have come to a game is playing one of LL's quest games like Linden Realms or PaleoQuest -- an interesting way to spend time occasionally but not their reason for staying in SL for years and years.  You are right, "It has some trappings of a MMO RPG but without structure, goals and the like."  LL is not particularly interested in going down that road.

 

[Extrude Ragu]

There is a way to "trick" the new Search UI, which although is useless to new users who won't know it, I thought I would share in case it helps others.

The search box being empty won't submit, but you can still get everything back by typing in an asterisk (*) which is a wildcard character that matches anything

I went to test if the results match in Firestorm, but when I went to the events tab it crashed

 

Sad times

[Love Zhaoying]

4 hours ago, animats said:

Group messages remain unreliable.

4 hours ago, animats said:

Voice is still unreliable.

Sorry for the cherry-picking!

Anyway, from what LL chooses not to fix, it's obvious that LL hates free speech! Surely, Musk and/or Rosedale can fix that and win our loyalty and support. 

</End-irony>

[Love Zhaoying]

18 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

but when I went to the events tab it crashed

Such crashing is purely to protect you from search results that would most certainly bring harm!

[Jaylinbridges]

4 hours ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I went to test if the results match in Firestorm, but when I went to the events tab it crashed

Firestorm Search does not crash for me, ever.  If this is a consistent error with your computer setup, go to FS help group and ask if anyone else has ever seen your result.  Since you showed FS search result on your earlier post and it worked, I guess you were just reporting that the internet world is not always perfect. 

Events search does not require an asterisk to do a "no key words" search in Firestorm.  If you add the * it returns the same results as with no *.  Same as it's been for many years.  Are the results for both viewers the same?  Well if they are not, I want a refund!

Edited May 12, 2022 by Jaylinbridges

[diamond Marchant]

17 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Sansar was pointedly not made for us. It was for other, more desirable "high brow" users, rather than the weirdo pervs who call SL home

Perhaps my favorite sentence ever written in this forum. Long live the weirdo pervs!

[animats]

39 minutes ago, diamond Marchant said:

Sansar was pointedly not made for us. It was for other, more desirable "high brow" users,

People who wanted to visit a museum of Star Wars prop models? A museum of 80s kitsch from Ready Player One? No, Sansar was aimed straight at popular culture, and it missed.

[Krystina Ferraris]

I am sure the OP’s return (or non-return) to SL will be the platform tipping point…

[Misty Rookstown]

16 hours ago, Codex Alpha said:

Sure, but no one I know in my network of 'gamers' care if it's officially a game or not. They still refer to it as a game, and there's no point arguing about it, or saying otherwise. They either like it and stay, or they don't, and they're not, because perhaps they like most are actually looking for games, interactivity, and interesting worlds to visit, and to do it without lag and with modern looking interfaces, models and worlds.

Calling it a game people would be deeply disappointed if they are expecting it a game. Second Life has nearly zero elements one can think of as a game. Now there can be games within Second Life and are. But to experienced Second Lifers it would be just as silly as calling Facebook a game. 

[Misty Rookstown]

16 hours ago, animats said:

The poster is complaining that the social features of SL don't work very well. They have a point. Group messages remain unreliable. The search tools aren't very good. Voice is still unreliable. Those problems should have been fixed by now. Those problems are mostly outside the 3D world, and can be fixed by people who aren't deep into the innards of the sim servers.

Many older users don't need those features, but them being broken is an obstacle to new user retention.

Also harder for older users that been away for a long time. It's not just broken or problematic issues it is accessibility and having an intuitive interface. In board game design game testing is critical unless the game is super basic like trvia. Obviously video games it is also critical. But with board games you have to have very clear information or they will easily play the game wrong and likely have a bad experience. Board games probably don't do this enough but they really need to hand the board game to a group of people and not say a damn thing and let the players figure it out without helping them in any way then sit back and take notes on what they are doing right and wrong and how long it takes them to figure out something etc.  If they did that test in Second Life it would be likely not go so well. 

[Misty Rookstown]

15 hours ago, Rolig Loon said:

And that incidentally makes the good point that the RPG communities in SL are active but are a rather small minority in the total population. The word "game" strikes most residents as inappropriate for describing the world they know.  The closest they may have come to a game is playing one of LL's quest games like Linden Realms or PaleoQuest -- an interesting way to spend time occasionally but not their reason for staying in SL for years and years.  You are right, "It has some trappings of a MMO RPG but without structure, goals and the like."  LL is not particularly interested in going down that road.

 

They are small but part of that is likely because of the limitations and how easy it is to cheat. Which is why a multiverse approach would be a good way to grow RPG communities to have more proper tools specifically made for that that would exclude any easy exploits. Which is why I think a browser that has sub browsers to enter diferent Second Life universes if you will like a RPG world. would help SL over all. It could have a level of expectation comparable to what one might expect from a dedicated RPG or survival game or shooter game and have less of a gimped feeling experience. Having a multiverse approach could turn things around for LL in a dramatic way. 

I also think they should rethink mainland. That is the first place people will discover when they come in to Second Life. Especially along the road ways. If it appears active in those areas instead of mostly being absentee owners and spinning signs. Also Shopping malls use to be a huge part of SL but LL's answer to Amazon kind of killed that. It makes sense to keep the online shopping kind of experience but having exclusives at in store shops and direct them there would help build in world activity.  LL doesn't necessarily need to head such changes up but they can oversee it a bit and they can have people and groups within SL work on such projects for a win win scenario. 

[Maryanne Solo]

Ok, (anyone), well what items can be crypto'd in SL? For metaverse distribution?

That's what has to be figured out to further cement SL's position as the best verse.

[Rolig Loon]

1 hour ago, Misty Rookstown said:

They are small but part of that is likely because of the limitations and how easy it is to cheat. Which is why a multiverse approach would be a good way to grow RPG communities to have more proper tools specifically made for that that would exclude any easy exploits. Which is why I think a browser that has sub browsers to enter diferent Second Life universes if you will like a RPG world. would help SL over all. It could have a level of expectation comparable to what one might expect from a dedicated RPG or survival game or shooter game and have less of a gimped feeling experience. Having a multiverse approach could turn things around for LL in a dramatic way. 

Perhaps, but you missed my concluding point:

17 hours ago, Rolig Loon said:

LL is not particularly interested in going down that road.

And, for that matter, neither are most residents, who would be just as happy if RPG remained a small part of SL.

[Codex Alpha]

2 hours ago, Misty Rookstown said:

Calling it a game people would be deeply disappointed if they are expecting it a game. Second Life has nearly zero elements one can think of as a game. Now there can be games within Second Life and are. But to experienced Second Lifers it would be just as silly as calling Facebook a game. 

Sure, I'm not taking a polarized position or anything, just pointing out that THAT section of SL could be marketed to gamers, RPG elements marketed to RPGers, Creative elements marketed to creators, Mr. and Mrs. Dressup elements marketed to that group - as all is possible in some form or another in SL.

These were all just as possible in Sansar(was lol) as well - as they are in Sinespace, and Altspace , etc. There is no reason to say it's a game or not a game, people still call it a game if they want or not - and will come and go based on that. "Game" also is used as a very wide word by many as well. But yeah, let's sit and debate it right - when the goal should be to get more users - from ALL entertainment types.

23,000 users in VRChat aren't worried about if it's a 'game' or not.. they're there because they want to be.

We've seen already what happens when VR platforms want to specialize in only ONE field, when they don't even have to. SL is fairly niche now, and we see that many want to keep it that way, or point out themselves that LL doesn't care to open it up wider.

31 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

And, for that matter, neither are most residents, who would be just as happy if RPG remained a small part of SL.

Yes that is weird though.. I don't do any RPG on SL, but what would it matter if millions or billions were RPGing on SL? Wouldn't change anything for me, so not sure this attitude would exist "I don't want X activity growing here", etc.

All it would mean would be a large RPG community we could make, sell avatars, equipment and other stuff for them to use.. Bring it on!

Edited May 12, 2022 by Codex Alpha

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Misty Rookstown said:

That is the first place people will discover when they come in to Second Life.

I was actually in SL for over a year before I knew anything about mainland.  I visited places that were mostly on private estates.  It certainly wasn't the first place I went exploring and I didn't even take advantage of my free mainland until recently.  

[Rolig Loon]

13 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

41 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

And, for that matter, neither are most residents, who would be just as happy if RPG remained a small part of SL.

Yes that is weird though.. I don't do any RPG on SL, but what would it matter if millions or billions were RPGing on SL? Wouldn't change anything for me, so not sure this attitude would exist "I don't want X activity growing here", etc.

I suspect that's true for many people, Codex. Most of us see only a small part of SL on a daily basis and wouldn't be affected much by seeing a big change in the size of one population segment or another.  A rather large number of us live in private estates and only go to other places to shop or visit events, too, so we might not even notice that LL was attracting more role playing gamers.  So, you might be right.

I probably should have said something like "Most residents would be just as happy if they didn't have to see role play activity around them on a regular basis," but that sounds unintentionally snooty. Even elitist.  I think the same could be said for other segments of the population as well. Most residents don't mind the fact that adult regions exist either, but are just as glad that they are concentrated in Zindra. (And Zindra residents are happy to have their own continent too.) The bottom line is that we are not a single community; we are an odd confederation of interest groups that don't interact heavily on a day to day basis. That's perhaps the loveliest part of SL's design. Anything that upsets that reality would probably make a lot of residents nervous.

[animats]

1 hour ago, Maryanne Solo said:

Ok, (anyone), well what items can be crypto'd in SL? For metaverse distribution?

Bad idea. Especially today. The bottom has dropped out of NFT-related investments. APE (Bored Ape Yacht Club) AXS, SLP (Axie Infinity), and SAND (The Sandbox) tokens have all crashed. In stablecoins, UST crashed yesterday, and USDT was in serious trouble earlier today. The floor price for Otheredeeds on Opensea has fallen well below the mint price. The Securities and Exchange Commission just doubled their staff for crypto-type product investigations. They bring the hammer down on about two scams a month, they've been falling behind, and now they can start catching up.

If none of this means anything to you, be glad you didn't put money into that stuff.

NFTs seem to be over. Peak NFT activity was in Q4 2021.

Go have some fun in SL. We do not need NFTs for that.

[Rolig Loon]

7 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

The bottom line is that we are not a single community; we are an odd confederation of interest groups that don't interact heavily on a day to day basis. That's perhaps the loveliest part of SL's design. Anything that upsets that reality would probably make a lot of residents nervous.

Tagging on to what I just posted a minute ago  .... I think that's what's behind some of the anxious comments we hear in the forums. "We don't want people in RL to think SL is all about sex."  "SL is not a game!"  "The blue avatar on the login page makes us look like Sci-Fi weirdos!"  "We don't need RL companies marketing here." I would hate to be in Linden Lab's Marketing division.  Any attempt to market an image for SL is sure to stir up at least one group of long-time residents who see it as an attempt to change the happy balance of separate communities.

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

21 hours ago, Codex Alpha said:

Sure, but no one I know in my network of 'gamers' care if it's officially a game or not. They still refer to it as a game, and there's no point arguing about it, or saying otherwise. They either like it and stay, or they don't, and they're not, because perhaps they like most are actually looking for games, interactivity, and interesting worlds to visit, and to do it without lag and with modern looking interfaces, models and worlds.

I noticed if anyone posts a video from SL on YouTube, that site refers SL as a game.