Requesting an LGBTQ+ sub forum.

[Solo Alpha]

15 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

But not you, apparently, even though you don't share the exact opinion?

I'm not demanding controlled speech, no. 

And let LL create such subforum. But it should not be for the reasons presented here.

I'd also like to ask of you that if trying to discuss things with me to refrain from using questionmarks only. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Solo Alpha

[Kathlen Onyx]

3 minutes ago, CarlaWetter said:

Otherwise there's the old adage of shoes that fit...

 

There is also the option of blocking/muting the person if you don't like the shoes they are wearing.  If there are so many opinions from people that are not considered valid why not just mute them. That way you won't have to read what you disagree with. People won't do that though cause they LOVE to play the drama and blame game.

[Luna Bliss]

I remember a year or two ago a thread was created by a few members who suffered from depression. It was agreed upon by those involved that the thread had certain parameters, certain boundaries, so as to be more supportive here vs the criticism they frequently felt in the world at large as they tried to deal with their depression (unfair judgements on their condition, unhelpful and often bizarre advice, etc.).

There's nothing wrong with doing this, and on the contrary it's very helpful to those involved. I imagine the 'free speech freaks' we have participating in the forum today would have a brain aneurism on encountering such a suppression of their apparent god-given rights to say whatever they wanted on the SL forum.

The person who ruined that thread is among us. For too many, the only boundaries that count are their own, and they call that freedom.

[Luna Bliss]

Still thinking about what you said @Rowan Amore.

[Chaser Zaks]

As a mostly gay guy, I don't like this idea for the following reasons:

1. First and foremost it feels segregationy
2. It will create a echo chamber
3. It will be a target for trolls

Assuming this means "LGBT" as in referring to people who are gay/lesbian/trans/etc, rather than the political group/umbrella that is "LGBT".

If it is the political group, that will make the suggestion worse as it is really just a umbrella term for anything left-wing(Not that I have a issue with left-wing views), in which case it'd just be a political forum, which we all know politics are a great way to keep a community peaceful(/s).

Either way, I see it as unnecessary. I state my opinions on stuff and there will always be people to try and counter my opinions. I find that as a good thing because:

1. It opens the door to discussion
2. It allows me to attempt to fix mis-understandings, biases, and other similar stuff
3. It allows me to hear what others have to say on the subject

By putting it all in one subforum, it kinda takes away the ability to have such a discussion as it'd only be populated with those interested in the subject matter.

Sure, some people do not like LGBT people, they will voice their opinions, and I think that is a good thing as it will set up a discussion that can help turn those dislikes into neutral feelings.

Also the whole "well why not a hetero sub forum" and "because it everything is hetero by default" arguments are really dumb. My take on it is that if the "default" is "hetero", that means "LGBT" people are not "normal". I dislike that the counter argument made by those in LGBT is that "the default is hetero" because it means I am not a normal person, which trying to be normal is hard enough as it is for me due to aspergers. I am just a person who happens to be male and also find males attractive, it doesn't make me any less normal than a guy who likes girls or a girl who likes guys. We all bleed red, and that is what makes us all one group known as Human.

 

tl;dr: I feel that these types of threads should just be in the "Making friends", "Lifestyles and relationships", and "General discussion" subforums and people who are being butts should be tried to reached out to to change their mind or just report them if you are lazy.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Chaser Zaks
grammar

[June Starlight]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I've spoken with quite a few LGBTQ+ SL friends, most of which are aware of the thread and simply don't feel safe sticking their neck out due to the persistent hostility on display.

While I am not among your friends, unsafe is exactly the way some reactions in this thread made me feel. Which is deeply upsetting, since in real life I live in an area where LGBTQ+ community is heavily discriminated against and SL is one of the very few outlets I have for simply existing without fear.

This aside, one of the reasons for creating sub-forum hasn't been brought up enough, I think. When a place for a minority or any niche thing exists it encourages conversation, helps people find each other and serves as a directory for useful stuff.

Sure, rules don't forbid me or any other to go into General or any other section of the forum and ask, I don't know, let's say a question about LGBTQ+ specific emotional support groups. But assuming most people on forums are straight and cis - why would I? It's awkward, for majority this topic will be of no interest at best and invite provocations and trolling at worst. And even if I would be lucky enough to catch attention of another queer folk and to get an answer - the topic will get buried under unrelated threads soon after. So next person interested in same question would have to try to tame key words in search or jump through anxiety loops, trying to decide if it is even worth to ask again.

[StarlanderGoods]

27 minutes ago, Solo Alpha said:

I'd also like to ask of you that if trying to discuss things with me to refrain from using questionmarks only. 

That is a fair ask, I have to asume that you have no problem using the pronouns that people tell you they identify with.  Otherwise you would be a huge hypocrite.

[CarlaWetter]

Well, I posted my personal opinion in this thread, trying to be open and friendly. But that did not get far, obviously. Now I learnt that people want me to shut up and go away, which the mute button actually would achieve), because I might consider the use of hyperbole or tendency to fight straw men not actually productive for the discussion at hand. 

Pointing this out alienates some people apparently and makes me into the Drama Llama here. This really is a very sad example of how discussion culture here is severely lacking if it degrades into puttng some cheap shots in.

I'l repeat my initial argument and opinion that I personally stand for. Don't put any other weird stuff into my head, I might not have that much of an open mind.

I am indeed FOR the creation of an LGBTQ+ group, not because it would be a tool to impede some peoples right of free expression. It would however be expected from participants to respect the groups focus, topic and of course other participants. It's not that such a group would all of a sudden restrict any of us from speaking our mind within the limits of courtesy and respect. Such limits should already be recognized in other parts of the forum as well, but that does not supersede the possible need for Yet Another Special Interest Subforum.

In this specific case we talk about a subforum that caters to the needs of a certain minority group and I will again point out that catering to this group does not take any other groups rights away. Does it hurt our freedom if we can't discuss deep scripting in the People/General forum? If we are bound to certain rules it seems to still work for many people. Can't promote my business on the forums, yes. Can't "name and shame", yes. Ain't that already a terrible restriction on our right to run off our mouth before actually thinking and/or reading and respecting the rules? Let's all take a deep breath, stop the bonfires, continue calling me a Drama Llama if you must but remember that if someone tells me they want to be muted only tells me they don't want to be questioned further.

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by CarlaWetter
more typos and streamlining

[Persephone Emerald]

3 hours ago, entity0x said:

Don't worry about such things, as that is not on you. If you have a decent command of the English language - which you do - you can communicate quite clearly in text, and should not have to apologize or take responsibility for someone else's interpretation or reaction to it.

You may find it has nothing to do on your end, or how you communicated, but on the others ability to process what you communicated due to their own level of vocabulary and comprehension.

I've been in chat rooms on the internet for a long time, and many people 'misunderstand' or argue in many different ways, and many times it boiled down to them not understanding (or bothering to look up a definition/context/usage of) a word before reacting.

I've also found in life and in live chats that people have become very adept at 'tuning out' other people, but the text goes in no matter what they're doing, and sometimes becomes a better and more effective tool to communicate ideas because they can't just simply plug their ears and go 'lalala!'.

To think otherwise would diminish the written word of countless authors and writers and books that relied on text alone - it is simply not a reasonable way to dismiss someone else's words or characterize them in any way just because they typed it and didn't speak it.

[snip]

And similarly, would it be appropriate to have a Republican forum here? or Democrat? or Hot Rod Owners? Where would it begin and end and be reasonable? Why can't SL be limited to SL topics and groups (with a bit of natural leeway of course in General Discussion)?

 

I'm in agreement with the first part of your post here. Text without vocal intonation and facial expression can be confusing at times, but has also been used for hundreds of years to convey reason, emotion, nuance, double-entendre, sarcasm, and all sort of other human expressions very well.

 

As to the second part, I'm going to wave the logical fallacy flag here for using the slippery slope argument.

[Coffee Pancake]

8 minutes ago, Chaser Zaks said:

By putting it all in one subforum, it kinda takes away the ability to have such a discussion as it'd only be populated with those interested in the subject matter.

Sure, some people do not like LGBT people, they will voice their opinions, and I think that is a good thing as it will set up a discussion that can help turn those dislikes into neutral feelings.

Thanks for your input Chaser, I hope you appreciate that not everyone in our community has the emotional fortitude necessary to debate or defend their position, sexuality or existence in what can often seem like open hostility. We have all seen how LGBTQ+ threads devolve in general discussion and it has a broadly silencing effect. Stifling the voices of those in our community who are not so well weathered against criticism and a constant onslaught of microaggressions.

I strongly feel it would be beneficial to the wider community to be able to raise LGBTQ+ issues and content without the headwind.

[Codex Alpha]

41 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

There's nothing wrong with doing this, and on the contrary it's very helpful to those involved. I imagine the 'free speech freaks' we have participating in the forum today would have a brain aneurism on encountering such a suppression of their apparent god-given rights to say whatever they wanted on the SL forum.

The person who ruined that thread is among us. For too many, the only boundaries that count are their own, and they call that freedom.

Labeling and accusing others of ill intent.

This is  a small example of those who want to be treated with respect and care, yet do not act that way themselves; constantly engaging in labeling and name-calling, misrepresentation of others views, putting words in their mouth, and continuing with some suspicious witch hunt that bad people are everywhere, and that one is continuously unsafe and a victim.

21 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

As to the second part, I'm going to wave the logical fallacy flag here for using the slippery slope argument.

They're just questions  to be answered, with the point being is there really a need for ANY sub forum specialty on Second Life forums that is not directly related to Second Life in general?

Just calling it a logical fallacy so that the questions can be hand-waved away is again assuming ill-intent, instead of assuming someone has good intent in their posts.

13 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Thanks for your input Chaser, I hope you appreciate that not everyone in our community has the emotional fortitude necessary to debate or defend their position, sexuality or existence in what can often seem like open hostility.

We have all seen how LGBTQ+ threads devolve in general discussion and it has a broadly silencing effect. Stifling the voices of those in our community who are not so well weathered against criticism and a constant onslaught of microaggressions.

I strongly feel it would be beneficial to the wider community to be able to raise LGBTQ+ issues and content without the headwind.

Is it true hostility and is anyone getting hurt, or is it just the perception or appearance of hostility.

When today's attitude with many is that EVERYTHING is a microagression, EVERYTHING is hostile, EVERYTHING is an attack - there is little one can do it allay such fears. Nothing.

Once one is painted with such a brush, no matter what side you're on, it's not just LGBTQ+ voices silenced - it's everyone with a countering opinion or worldview to the majority on the platform.

Second Life already provides a fair and wide place to discuss ideas, and  you don't need them to provide this to you - once again, you can do this yourself.

Edited April 15, 2022 by entity0x

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 minute ago, entity0x said:

 

When today's attitude with many is that EVERYTHING is a microagression, EVERYTHING is hostile, EVERYTHING is an attack - there is little one can do it allay such fears. Nothing.

Some people even repeatedly start threads to complain about marketplace reviews, and start yelling "anti-competitive" if people discuss posting lists of merchants that won't provide modifiable products.

[Love Zhaoying]

When suddenly all-caps posts appear. So aggressive! Or a victim of aggression! It's all so confusing.

[Madelaine McMasters]

11 hours ago, So Whimsy said:

It is absolutely impossible to hear the tone of voice of someone posting text.

If your claim were true, it would be very difficult to explain literature.

I read tone here all the time, with varying degrees of accuracy. This is also true for my read on people's underlying beliefs, temperament, and emotional/intellectual intelligence. Some people are easier for me to read than others, but overall, the benefit of my doubt over potential misreading generally goes down as my exposure to a writer goes up.

Though this thread has produced considerable illumination, I have seen few surprises. You were one.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I read tone here all the time, with varying degrees of accuracy. This is also true for my read on people's underlying beliefs, temperament, and emotional/intellectual intelligence.

Thank goodness you don't have - or didn't include - a read on people's mental health - many of us would be screwed!

[So Whimsy]

26 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

You were one.

 

And why is that? For calling out people treating others like their enemy for not sharing their opinion? The vitriol is much stronger one one side than the other and it's not the side you believe it to be.

Just because I am not tooting into the same horn as most people in this thread doesn't mean I have no place within the community. Opinions differ and I see things differently. Does that make be an abomination? Replies in this thread have given me this feeling. I am neither right wing nor left wing, I just watched this thread unfold with an untainted opinion of everyone participating and let me tell you, it paints a very clear picture.

 

Edit: Like I said, I am strongly rooted in the LGBTQ+ community, being bisexual myself and leaning toward other women in RL. I have not been exposed to the hate people of differing countries have. No, I have been exposed to my own countries hate about it, which differs from say the US. Also, as a german, it's not even 80 years ago that homo/bisexuals/transexuals were gassed en masse. THAT is a trauma most of you do not share with me. Perhaps that accounts for my differing opinion, after all things could be SO much worse than getting up in arms about a forum comment.

 

Who knows.

Edited April 15, 2022 by So Whimsy

[Solo Alpha]

7 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Thank goodness you don't have - or didn't include - a read on people's mental health - many of us would be screwed!

That is uncalled for : people's choice for a certain lifestyle and identity or their mere opinion on that is not indicative of the condition of their mind. 

This is the exact attitude I have issues with here. Revoke opinions as much as you want but lay off the mindcrime-accusations.

Please. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Solo Alpha

[Persephone Emerald]

I support the proposal for having a LGBTQ+ sub-forum, not to exclude anyone, but to give those looking for discussion and support in LGBTQ + related Second Life matters a clear place to look for such. In the meantime or if we don't get such a sub-forum,  I think Lifestyles and Relationships, Seeking Friends, Your Avatar, and the General Discussion sub-forums would be good places to make and look for such posts.

As to whether I have any "skin in this game", I care because I'm a human being who cares about other human beings who are experiencing prejudice, misunderstanding and hostility directed toward them or toward others they care about.

If I say I'm a cis straight woman would this make my opinions more or less valid?

If I say I'm a lesbian, bisexual or trans woman, would this make my opinions more or less valid?

Unless I'm speaking as if I've lived in someone else's shoes, my opinion - or that of others on this board - is valid. Being free to speak one's opinions does not mean they'll be be free from opposing opinions and possibly even ridicule, however.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Persephone Emerald

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Solo Alpha said:

17 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Thank goodness you don't have - or didn't include - a read on people's mental health - many of us would be screwed!

That is uncalled for : people's choice for a certain lifestyle and identity or their mere opinion on that is not indicative of the condition of their mind. 

This is the exact attitude I have issues with here. Revoke opinions as much as you want but lay off the mindcrime-accusations.

Please. 

It was a general comment not related to anything - or anyone - in particular. If I understand Maddy, she took it as such.  It was a reply to her - and not you or anyone else. So sensitive!

[Solo Alpha]

8 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

So sensitive!

Coming from a person belonging to a specific group here who claim to be verbally attacked so severely they need a seperate subforum to feel safe and uncriticized.

So telling!

Edited April 15, 2022 by Solo Alpha

[Coffee Pancake]

Why are you here exactly ?

[CarlaWetter]

If we look for things to offend us we'll find things to offend us. Please, please break out of that loop.

[Solo Alpha]

Just now, CarlaWetter said:

If we look for things to offend us we'll find things to offend us. Please, please break out of that loop.

As a final from me : since you ask, I will comply. 

I doubt anyone else, belonging to any group, will guarantee you the same. 

[Arielle Popstar]

29 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Thanks for your input Chaser, I hope you appreciate that not everyone in our community has the emotional fortitude necessary to debate or defend their position, sexuality or existence in what can often seem like open hostility. We have all seen how LGBTQ+ threads devolve in general discussion and it has a broadly silencing effect. Stifling the voices of those in our community who are not so well weathered against criticism and a constant onslaught of microaggressions.

I strongly feel it would be beneficial to the wider community to be able to raise LGBTQ+ issues and content without the headwind.

As someone who has spent multiple decades in anonymous fellowships wherein new and more fragile members have an opportunity to share and learn from more experienced members, the anonymity is foundational to such groups, allowing newer people to come out of the closet, so to speak, in a safe environment. If you are attempting to entice such people to come out and join in the discussions in this sub forum then I would disagree and find it irresponsible and suspect it involves a degree of egotism in your thinking that you can make such a thread a safe place by silencing any opponents through moderation.

Chaser makes an excellent distinction when he points out:

Quote

 

Assuming this means "LGBT" as in referring to people who are gay/lesbian/trans/etc, rather than the political group/umbrella that is "LGBT".

If it is the political group, that will make the suggestion worse as it is really just a umbrella term for anything left-wing(Not that I have a issue with left-wing views), in which case it'd just be a political forum, which we all know politics are a great way to keep a community peaceful(/s).

 

and from that perspective I'll point out that the ones most promoting this are ones who are very, very politically minded and their ability to not involve their bias in any topic, including LBQT+ is pretty much zero, and as such would just be an open invitation to being challenged by those with a different political bias. That, as can already be seen, spirals the LBQT+ theme down into just a political fiasco and leaving people into thinking the rejection is of LGBQT+ in general rather than the political bias some promote it with.

[Luna Bliss]

30 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I'll point out that the ones most promoting this are ones who are very, very politically minded and their ability to not involve their bias in any topic, including LBQT+ is pretty much zero, and as such would just be an open invitation to being challenged by those with a different political bias. That, as can already be seen, spirals the LBQT+ theme down into just a political fiasco and leaving people into thinking the rejection is of LGBQT+ in general rather than the political bias some promote it with.

Please, Arielle, keep politics out of it. It makes no matter what political party anybody belongs to who wants a safer space for LGBTQ+ discussions on the forum.

Like I said before...
It's about the gay boy with the bashed in head, left in the field to die, because segments of society still thinks gay people are sinful and perverted, and so license was given to violent creeps to do what they pleased to rid the world of "trash".

It's about the women in the deep South who couldn't be together as one of them died, because unjust marriage laws existed that allowed prejudiced creeps to do what they pleased and keep them apart.

It's about all the people who lost access to their very own children because laws said they were perverts and unfit to parent.

It's about all the LGBTQ+ kids who have no support as they try to make sense of how they are different from the norm, and are bullied into suicide.

Civil rights are are on a downward spiral.
It's important that support is as easy as possible to find in all social spaces to help us deal with this.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Luna Bliss