Making SL avatars act less dead.

[animats]

With Linden Lab having promised camera-based tracking to make avatars more expressive as a new feature this year, here are some comments from someone who tried Microsoft's new system for expressiveness:

"Something strange happens to me when I enter virtual worlds with my VR headset: I feel alone. I've noticed this happens again and again, no matter what virtual space I stumble into. The irony of feeling so disconnected despite the promise of endless ways to connect isn't lost on me. 

But that changed recently.

Standing in a bare virtual room created in AltspaceVR, along with two other actors and with Jeff Wirth, director of the interactive acting-focused Interactive PlayLab and my VR coach, I found something far more uplifting. We stood close to each other, paying attention to when our avatar eyes drifted, an automatic move created by Microsoft's virtual worlds app to simulate eye contact without eye tracking. We learned to move our heads to trigger this eye movement and more intentionally create a sense of presence. Wirth also reminded me that, as I spoke, my hands stayed too still. Moving my hands more, and animating, made my avatar more expressive. I had to learn to perform, in a sense, to better express myself as a human."

Now that's an interesting way to do avatar expressiveness. This bears thinking about.

This could solve SL's problem of rooms full of dead-looking people standing around.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

I've never wanted anything less.

Sorry, sorry, I hate to be negative. I'm just not looking forward to that feature whatsoever. I hope it's an optional thing and can be turned off completely.

[Ardy Lay]

39 minutes ago, animats said:

This could solve SL's problem of rooms full of dead-looking people standing around.

Much of that deadness is caused by people choosing to use high-priority animation overrides that squelch all the built-in motion and reactions.

[Bree Giffen]

I don't think camera based tracking of our faces and arm movements is the right way to make our avatars more expressive. I've seen people in videos talking with very expressive faces and waving their hands and it always looks like they are spazzing out. I would rather see a manga/anime style of expression with graphical cues to show feelings such as a giant droplet on your head to show a worried feeling or an open mouth with sharp teeth to show anger. Where do you think emojis come from? What's the equivalent way to show those emotions with face-tracking? Not everyone is constantly showing emotion on their faces and not everyone has the same expressions. I think if I was using camera tracking all you'd see is my avatar with a resting (slang for female dog) face.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Bree Giffen
getting around censorship

[Rowan Amore]

As @Ardy Laysaid, A large percentage of those static avatars are static by choice.  The stand I use is nearly still with just slight movement.  I also have my head HUD set so my eyes move.   I try to strike a balance between fidgeting like a 5 year old and a statue.  I rarely, as in almost never, have my cam locked on anyone's face even if I'm having a conversation so any of what you described would be pointless IMO.

[Lucia Nightfire]

10 hours ago, animats said:

This could solve SL's problem of rooms full of dead-looking people standing around.

IDK, back before everyone was using AOs, a system animation would make your head turn to whoever last chatted.

I found that too annoying, even creepy.

I was so glad when TPVs came along and allowed us to turn that effect off.

Besides, it isn't like a group of people in SL ever communicate in mouselook to begin with.

We all leave our cameras in third party perspective, even alt camming on anything but a talker's head/face.

The only annoying remnant is alt camming causing your eyes to try to lock on the focus point even it if makes your eyes go half-way back in your head...

Edited April 10, 2022 by Lucia Nightfire

[Coffee Pancake]

Before mesh heads, I used to cam avatars and look at faces all the time.

Afterwards, it's the same dozen vacant dolls staring off into space.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

I shudder to think of the look at drama that would arise from using this feature. 😂

I am curious how it would work with the current AO system, though. My AOs are pretty active and over the top on purpose, including all kinds of head and arm/hand movements. Depending on my mood, I use full on dances and dance walks instead of normal standing/walking anims and leave all of my head's expressions on a random cycle. If I wanted to simulate all that with the new system, I'd have to groove all day? Not that I'm opposed to that but...no.

This is one of the "stands" actually in my AO cycle, and yes, I'll carry on a whole conversation using anims like this:

[Coffee Pancake]

18 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

This is one of the "stands" actually in my AO cycle, and yes, I'll carry on a whole conversation using anims like this:

I've collected a huge number of insane typing animations for precisely this purpose.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

2 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I've collected a huge number of insane typing animations for precisely this purpose.

I love those, too! 

I found a silly crayon on the MP that makes you draw in the air (but it was sped up for some ridiculous reason so it looked even funnier) and I used that for the longest time.

[animats]

LL officially announced that something like this was coming.  It's not my proposal. LL hasn't announced yet how this new feature is supposed to work, so it's useful to see how other systems do it.

[Bree Giffen]

I know it's a new LL feature and I'm hoping it will turn out well. 

I just don't want it to be the case where we are acting like mimes in front of a camera in order to express ourselves in SL.

[Rowan Amore]

And yet another feature no one needs.  I wonder what kind of hit this brainstorm will be to viewer performance.  And is there going to be an opt out?

 

 

 

 

[Paul Hexem]

While I'm all for more interactivity in the pipeline, this one seems like another Sansar level waste of resources. 

Even if it works, even if people want it, it's going to need special hardware that I suspect a lot of people in SL don't have. I doubt the ratty webcam from Walmart will do the trick.

[ChinRey]

4 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

And yet another feature no one needs.

I don't agree. Mehrabian's 55/38/7 formula (55% non verbal, 38% vocal, 7% words) is probably rather exaggerated and also ignores several other communication factors but body language is still a very important part of any face-to-face conversation.

However:

17 hours ago, animats said:

...

Standing in a bare virtual room...

There's your problem. How many people will have access to a dedicated room for VR? It can't always be a bare room either since people sometimes will need to interact with objects. If you want to sit down, there have to be matching chair in the virtual scene and in the VR room.

On a world wide web we also got an issue with time dilation. It may well be several hundred milliseconds and that is very noticeable and something we simply can't do much about.

 

5 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Even if it works, even if people want it, it's going to need special hardware that I suspect a lot of people in SL don't have. I doubt the ratty webcam from Walmart will do the trick.

The hardware needed isn't actually that complicated or expensive and the technology is already here.

[Rowan Amore]

16 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

I don't agree. Mehrabian's 55/38/7 formula (55% non verbal, 38% vocal, 7% words) is probably rather exaggerated and also ignores several other communication factors but body language is still a very important part of any face-to-face conversation.

.

I don't know about that.  I've been communicating quite effectively with text only in SL for 12+ years without a single person seeing my facial expression or body language.  What would be more helpful is a sarcasm font.   

[Paul Hexem]

14 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

The hardware needed isn't actually that complicated or expensive and the technology is already here.

It's gotta be something like an IR head tracker, which was 70 USD last time I looked (that was the cheap one that needs you to wear something reflective on your head) or it's a webcam with enough resolution to accurately detect subtle movements. Also, same price range, with the added bonus of having a camera on you full time.

I just can't see widespread adoption of either of those. If there's some new tech I don't know about though, I'd love to see it. 

[Rowan Amore]

So no picking your nose while on SL!!!   No one wants to see that!!! 😆

[Paul Hexem]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

So no picking your nose while on SL!!!   No one wants to see that!!! 😆

You remember that line from that movie, "You've walked in on me doing worse things than this."

There's much worse things than picking your nose.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Thanks guys, now I want this even less. 😂

[ChinRey]

4 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

I've been communicating quite effectively with text only in SL for 12+ years without a single person seeing my facial expression or body language.

Me too although not for quite as long as you.

This is also one of the reasons why I'm not too fond of voice chat. It's a half measure as will any realistic attempt to introduce body language and facial expressions be and in this case I'd say that is it can't be done properly it shouldn't be done at all. The reason I didn't completely agree with you is that it would have been great if it could have been done properly.

(Voice is a bit different. It's necessary because there are people who for various reasons can't communicate effectively typing on a keyboard and for them even a crude solution is better than nothing at all. I'm willing to bet good money that there are far more people who are struggling to communicate with voice than with text on an international multilingual platform like a shared virtual reality so text must be the main focus in the foreseeable future but we still need to have a way to accomodate those who depend on voice too.)

Edited April 11, 2022 by ChinRey

[Lucia Nightfire]

3 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

There's much worse things than picking your nose.

Getting sustenance from picking your nose? 👃

[Dragon Mommy]

Given how uh... Bizaare some bento mesh heads can look when trying to smile or even have subtle changes in expression, I'd almost want to see a feature that read and tracked my face via webcam just for the nightmare fuel it would create in world. 

But that's a lot of work for something I would use once and then be bored of.

[Alvina Nova]

"ALT click" on a system head was forcing system my eyes to look at -and track- the clicked target. This is alas missing in mesh heads.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Alvina Nova

[cunomar]

Can't remember how many male AO's i have bought but i always revert to the free one because its the least fidgety toddler told to stand in the corner .