Why are so few bodies moddable? A discussion topic!

[Cinos Field]

This is one of those topics I think about a lot when I'm on SL. Why are so few mesh bodies modify-enabled?

I've seen it excused as creators being misinformed about copybotting, but that can't really be the case anymore unless they're... well, unless you give them very, very little credit when it comes to mental acuity. Slink, once upon a time, told me that it was to reduce load on customer support, but that doesn't sound like much of an argument either since you could have a modify and a non-modify version. For clothing, one can kind of make an argument that the creators earn more money selling no mod since every color has to be paid for, or some "they'll make it look WRONG!" style of originalist take. But for bodies, you only buy one version, and you can wear all kinds of "wrong"-looking skins of them anyway.

So what's the deal with no mod bodies? Out of the relatively popular (human) ones, it's basically only Belleza and eBody that checked the modify checkbox, and the former only relatively recently! I've absolutely racked my poor brain trying to figure out what logic leads to that decision!

And yes, I'm aware that this thread won't change any body creator's minds, but it's one of those things that's vaguely interesting to discuss regardless.

Edited March 26, 2022 by Cinos Field

[Ajay McDowwll]

I think the customer service angle is a realistic one.  I know for many of us it's just good sense to keep the original packaging our body came in so we can get a fresh copy if something borkens, or a redelivery (same with heads), but some people will have an issue even with a no-mod body or head, and if you suggest just unpacking a new copy they'll do about anything to avoid that.

The time I've seen taken in various customer support channels dealing body issues is pretty intense.  Now add a modifiable body onto that... ouch.

All that said, I wish more bodies were modifiable as well.  I need to get the Belleza optimizer for both myself and one of my alts (I have Isis, he has Jake), because I want to play with it and see what it does... I'm not technically minded, but the thing is... I know if I screw it up, I just unpack a new copy.  Or better still, I make a copy FIRST and work from that copy rather than having to go through the whole unpacking scenario.

But seriously, people lose their minds when their avatars get messed up.  I get it, because our avatars are important; they're a reflection of ourselves, either our actual selves or just how we want to present in SL.  But the time various CSRs have to take working out body (and head) issues is already extensive.

Edited March 26, 2022 by Ajay McDowwll
Insufficient caffeination.

[Ajay McDowwll]

To add on, if you also threw a modifiable body into the works, there would inevitably be questions about why the body doesn't work when you've unlinked and relinked, how to do X, Y, or Z... and that's on top of the standard "Why does my neck have a line" refrain that sounds Each. And. Every. Day.  Still.

[Cinos Field]

17 minutes ago, Ajay McDowwll said:

To add on, if you also threw a modifiable body into the works, there would inevitably be questions about why the body doesn't work when you've unlinked and relinked, how to do X, Y, or Z... and that's on top of the standard "Why does my neck have a line" refrain that sounds Each. And. Every. Day.  Still.

I can kind of get that, but wouldn't just having two versions be an easy solution? One mod that you don't support, and one no mod that you do... surely customers would understand that!

[Ajay McDowwll]

3 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

4 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

I can kind of get that, but wouldn't just having two versions be an easy solution? One mod that you don't support, and one no mod that you do... surely customers would understand that!

Hahahahaha!!  No.  No, they would not.  Of course some people would, because they actually look at the documentation and have reading comprehension skills, but from what I've seen in customer support channels, it would create  a clusterfludge of epic proportions and we'd have CSRs ripping their hair out more than they already do.  Plus also, customer support would be going in two different directions:  1) how do I fix this/ apply this/ activate this/ OMG MY BODY HAS THREE FEET, and 2) how do I go into edit/ edit linked parts/ how do I relink/ what is a root prim/ what is a face...

I'd say I'm over-stating, but I've been in building classes marked as intermediate or advanced, and folks are still asking about root prims.  Don't get me wrong -- in a classroom setting that is fine... but CSRs aren't building instructors, and that's what you'd end up needing for that end of the customer support.

[Ajay McDowwll]

(sorry about the double nesting -- I was backspacing and everything went haywire)
This is my actual response, in case it gets missed via the "expand" command:
"Hahahahaha!!  No.  No, they would not.  Of course some people would, because they actually look at the documentation and have reading comprehension skills, but from what I've seen in customer support channels, it would create  a clusterfludge of epic proportions and we'd have CSRs ripping their hair out more than they already do.  Plus also, customer support would be going in two different directions:  1) how do I fix this/ apply this/ activate this/ OMG MY BODY HAS THREE FEET, and 2) how do I go into edit/ edit linked parts/ how do I relink/ what is a root prim/ what is a face...

I'd say I'm over-stating, but I've been in building classes marked as intermediate or advanced, and folks are still asking about root prims.  Don't get me wrong -- in a classroom setting that is fine... but CSRs aren't building instructors, and that's what you'd end up needing for that end of the customer support."

[Bree Giffen]

1 hour ago, Cinos Field said:

I can kind of get that, but wouldn't just having two versions be an easy solution? One mod that you don't support, and one no mod that you do... surely customers would understand that!

Sounds like a good idea.

Customer: Hi, I added a third leg to my body and it's not working.

Support: Sorry, by modifying your body you have voided your warranty. 

[Coffee Pancake]

3 hours ago, Ajay McDowwll said:

To add on, if you also threw a modifiable body into the works, there would inevitably be questions about why the body doesn't work when you've unlinked and relinked

Unlinking and relinking in a different order is not a complex problem for scripts to deal with automatically and without fuss.

 

[Ajay McDowwll]

10 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Unlinking and relinking in a different order is not a complex problem for scripts to deal with automatically and without fuss.

 

True, but I think depending on how the body was scripted that it *could* be problematic.  I know some scripts are very specific with regard to what link number certain parts are.  If you're talking more about having a script for modifying a body (like the one for the Belleza optimization), then yes that can be taken care of.

And if so, then you get folks in the body's customer support chat constantly asking how to use the optimization package.  If that's part of the creator's work, well and good; if it's not, you're dealing with declining multiple questions for support of a third-party product.

I am not at all against modifiable bodies, for the record.  I think they're great.  I just think that the customer service angle -- not to mention potential extra work on the part of the creator -- can be a reason that creators swing overwhelmingly in favor of keeping their bodies no mod.

Edited March 26, 2022 by Ajay McDowwll
Your vs you're... I'm going to cry in my grammar book now.

[Coffee Pancake]

Just now, Ajay McDowwll said:

True, but I think depending on how the body was scripted that it *could* be problematic.  I know some scripts are very specific with regard to what link number certain parts are

Not problematic in the slightest.

Uniquely name all of the parts, have the script index the body when the link order changes. Job done. Going to the trouble of hard coding link numbers into the script with something as complex as a body is actually way more work.

[Quistess Alpha]

8 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Uniquely name all of the parts, have the script index the body when the link order changes. Job done. Going to the trouble of hard coding link numbers into the script with something as complex as a body is actually way more work.

You forget that (as was hinted at above) people can be stupid and rename things "I renamed my left foot Brok so my custom script could work , why does the foot-shape button no longer function?"

As much as I like modify things, when no-mod scripts are involved, and you're big enough to have customer support, being able to modify things does open up the can of worms on new ways to **** everything up that just add to the list of possibilities support needs to think about.

Edited March 26, 2022 by Quistess Alpha

[Cinos Field]

Still though, in real life people have no difficulty understanding "you're free to tweak everything you buy to your heart's content, but if you do and then break it, the warranty is void". And on SL you always have redeliveries and copies.

I don't want to imagine the average resident being unable to grasp that concept.

[Paul Hexem]

3 hours ago, Ajay McDowwll said:

The time I've seen taken in various customer support channels dealing body issues is pretty intense.  Now add a modifiable body onto that... ouch.

Totally anecdotal, but the few times I've ever had to contact creators for any kind of customer support have been because their stuff was no modify and I was unable to fix it myself. Oh, you included a HUD to change the thing? Too bad you didn't put the channel in and nothing happens, and since I can't change it myself, now I need to spam you to fix it.

I imagine if I bought more no modify stuff, I'd be contacting creators a lot more than I do.

By making things no modify, they increase their customer service load in that regard, not reduce it.

[Coffee Pancake]

I don't think the support angle is valid in the slightest to be honest

I refer you to the furry community, back when their heads and a hands were made from prims, Unlinking, relinking, combining, modding we're part of the culture and it wasn't so much work that creators went nomod. In fact the furry community has stayed religiously mod for the most part since the start.

Copy Mod. If you break it you get to keep both parts, rez another copy and try not to fluff it up this time

[Ajay McDowwll]

35 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Not problematic in the slightest.

Uniquely name all of the parts, have the script index the body when the link order changes. Job done. Going to the trouble of hard coding link numbers into the script with something as complex as a body is actually way more work.

All things being as you stated, then absolutely.  The question still remains regarding exactly how the bodies are scripted.  If they've all got unique names, then as you say, easy-peasy.  But if they're hard-coded in (which I've seen done for varying purposes, although I don't know if any bodies do that)... you're once again in the territory of massive customer support issues.

Ultimately, the link issue is just one part of a greater whole when it comes to creators' decisions to release no mod bodies.  Again, I do not LIKE that my bodies (outside of my Jomo and my Belleza Isis) are no mod, but I understand some of the decisions behind it.

[Ajay McDowwll]

17 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Totally anecdotal, but the few times I've ever had to contact creators for any kind of customer support have been because their stuff was no modify and I was unable to fix it myself. Oh, you included a HUD to change the thing? Too bad you didn't put the channel in and nothing happens, and since I can't change it myself, now I need to spam you to fix it.

I imagine if I bought more no modify stuff, I'd be contacting creators a lot more than I do.

By making things no modify, they increase their customer service load in that regard, not reduce it.

Eh, could be?  I can just see the angle Cinos brought out in the OP, and I can understand why that would be an issue.

15 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I don't think the support angle is valid in the slightest to be honest

I refer you to the furry community, back when their heads and a hands were made from prims, Unlinking, relinking, combining, modding we're part of the culture and it wasn't so much work that creators went nomod. In fact the furry community has stayed religiously mod for the most part since the start.

Copy Mod. If you break it you get to keep both parts, rez another copy and try not to fluff it up this time

The support angle was stated by a creator; I'm merely listing reasons why I see it as valid.  As for the furry community, I can't really speak to that.  I have a Jomo I enjoy, and I rather like that it's modifiable, but it's not my default.

The problem, Coffee, is that you're using reason and logic; these tend to be in short supply at times   Copy your original, rez the copy, if you borken the copy, re-rez the copy and try again.  It's not rocket science.  I've spent too much time in the Catwa and Maitreya chats, though, and I see what questions are asked even now.  When that's added to how little many SL residents know about editing at all... it's a potential dumpster fire.

That said, if creators could sign on for it, I'd be totally down for that.

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 hours ago, Bree Giffen said:

Sounds like a good idea.

Customer: Hi, I added a third leg to my body and it's not working.

Support: Sorry, by modifying your body you have voided your warranty. 

 

*phone rings*

You: Hello?

Voice on phone: We're calling because your Second Life body's warranty is about to expire. We would like to take this opportunity to extend your current warranty for the low, low price of $100,000Ls, payable in 3 easy installments!

☎️

[Ajay McDowwll]

43 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

Still though, in real life people have no difficulty understanding "you're free to tweak everything you buy to your heart's content, but if you do and then break it, the warranty is void". And on SL you always have redeliveries and copies.

I don't want to imagine the average resident being unable to grasp that concept.

I hear you.  What I can see happening -- and this is rank supposition based in large part upon what I've seen in customer service chats -- is people coming in, asking that still, and getting terribly, TERRIBLY offended that customer support is not available for modifications, and creating a mess out of the support chat time and time and time again.

I see related interactions happening day after day after day.  And before anyone wonders, no, I'm not a CSR for any brand.  I am a professional SL layabout -- I toil neither do I spin.  Okay, I host a live music set once a week at the Blarney, but that's the extent of my worklife in SL as it currently stands lol

[Arielle Popstar]

21 minutes ago, Ajay McDowwll said:

All things being as you stated, then absolutely.  The question still remains regarding exactly how the bodies are scripted.  If they've all got unique names, then as you say, easy-peasy.  But if they're hard-coded in (which I've seen done for varying purposes, although I don't know if any bodies do that)... you're once again in the territory of massive customer support issues.

Ultimately, the link issue is just one part of a greater whole when it comes to creators' decisions to release no mod bodies.  Again, I do not LIKE that my bodies (outside of my Jomo and my Belleza Isis) are no mod, but I understand some of the decisions behind it.

Unfortunately the no-mod designation also affects the naming of the item which is my absolute biggest beef. Why should I not be able to rename my bodies with some hint to what it is different from one copy to the next without having to put it in a new specific folder?  Allow me please please please the ability to do like this:

My-Body xyx skin +tatttoo

My-Body xyx skin

My-Body xxx skin

My-Body yyx skin skull tattoo

etc. 

Or be able to rename an item by what that non-english speaking Creator uses for shoe or heel? Forever lost!

Something that occurs to me too is that giving support in group is not necessarily a bad thing. Such groups tend to be active and are always popping up in my chat windows and inadvertently promoting their product(s) by its constantly being right there, unlike as an example 2 different bodies where there was rarely any support needed or asked to a point where I deleted them for wanting an empty group slot for other groups. As a result I unconsciously used those bodies less and less because I wasn't being reminded of their names.

[Ajay McDowwll]

6 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Unfortunately the no-mod designation also affects the naming of the item which is my absolute biggest beef. Why should I not be able to rename my bodies with some hint to what it is different from one copy to the next without having to put it in a new specific folder?  Allow me please please please the ability to do like this:

My-Body xyx skin +tatttoo

My-Body xyx skin

My-Body xxx skin

My-Body yyx skin skull tattoo

etc. 

Or be able to rename an item by what that non-english speaking Creator uses for shoe or heel? Forever lost!

Something that occurs to me too is that giving support in group is not necessarily a bad thing. Such groups tend to be active and are always popping up in my chat windows and inadvertently promoting their product(s) by its constantly being right there, unlike as an example 2 different bodies where there was rarely any support needed or asked to a point where I deleted them for wanting an empty group slot for other groups. As a result I unconsciously used those bodies less and less because I wasn't being reminded of their names.

Yeah, the no-mod thing making it so you can't rename a product drives me nuts too.  I have multiple folders of my head with the style script removed with labels like "Dark lips/ pointed ears" "Dark lips/ rounded ears" "Light lips/ rounded ears" etc.  Same for a ton of my hair that has accessories with different options; I have folders with "Red hairband, Blue hairband, Brown hairband" etc. ad nauseum.

The chats for my body and head tend to be pretty active, so for me, I can see having more call on the CSRs could result in a real bottleneck for support requests.  All that said... maybe it's something that's time has come?  Possibly creators could make a separate group for modification questions, which would leave the CSRs on the main channel to handle questions like "Why is my hair on my chin?"

Edited March 26, 2022 by Ajay McDowwll
Punct! u! ation! Ajay!

[MelodicRain]

Because 95% of creators in SL thinks slapping on a no-mod on every single thing they sell gives them the superiority complex. "Use my godly creation as I've intended it, peasants, no modifications of any kind cause what I've designed is absolutely perfect". There's also the reason that most of them think 90% of residents are imbeciles who don't even know how to resize something, which ties in with the superiority complex. I've accidentally bought no-mod, fatpack, non-rigged mesh accessories before that have absolutely NO reason being no-mod, and when messaged the creator about it, I was told I have no business modding their products. Oh f* off.

Funny story: I've got a pair of heels from a certain store that starts with a P, and there was a major texture issue on it. I actually told them how to fix it cause I like to tinker with things and probably know more about building in SL than the creator themselves, but guess what? They still refuse to send me a moddable version for me to fix it myself, AND they refuse to fix it as well cause "don't have time".

Bodies/heads are those things that you can't really live without unless you want to look like you time travelled from 2005, but for clothing/accessories, I try my best to avoid these no-mod snobs.

Edited March 26, 2022 by MelodicRain

[Paul Hexem]

4 hours ago, MelodicRain said:

what I've designed is absolutely perfect

That comes across like an exaggeration, but it's really not.

I'll never forget the creator that told me literally, "no one else in SL can texture or code on my level" when I asked about a mod version I could make some changes to. 

To make the story more funny, his scripts were a bloated mess.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

I'll echo what's already been said, #1 excuse is "customers will break it"/"less customer support necessary." Then "it's my artistic vision"/"I don't want you to make any changes" comes second.

Or even "it's too much work to add a modifiable copy" (which it can be annoying to re-perm lots of things, but if you're selling things for the price of current bodies, you should do the work).

I've also been told "if people could modify it then they'd only have to buy one version and modify that for other colors" and "there's a HUD to modify everything you need to" which begs the question: why waste time re-implementing the viewer's built-in edit tools in slow scripts and force customers to use it?

The theft-prevention myth seems to have died at least.

 

7 hours ago, Ajay McDowwll said:

The question still remains regarding exactly how the bodies are scripted.  If they've all got unique names, then as you say, easy-peasy.  But if they're hard-coded in (which I've seen done for varying purposes, although I don't know if any bodies do that)... you're once again in the territory of massive customer support issues.

Prevention is the best cure, it's the creators/scripters who decide how things are named/scripted, so if they build things conveniently to begin with, the problem won't even come up. And if you have a case where your product is scripted to rely on hardcoded link numbers, it's not a big task to switch to using link names. The amount of code that needs to change won't require everything to be remade.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Salt Peppermint]

16 hours ago, MelodicRain said:

Because 95% of creators in SL thinks slapping on a no-mod on every single thing they sell gives them the superiority complex. ...

this makes me incredibly sad to read. I can assure you that in fact SLcreators do now have any superiority complex but rather the opposite. most are quite shy and struggle with tons of insecurities and really try the best they can. the levels of that will certainly differ. 

of course there are some bad apples, like everywhere in every world and every field, but those do not make 95% of creators. those are single cases.

as for the no mod.. I can only speak from my personal experience and agree to the reason of making anything mod, not only triples the customer service time but raises it into orbit, leaving you completely drained and with no time to create anything else. if you have a smaller store and generally do not need much time for customer support, you can probably handle items being mod but even that will just very much depend on the person. 

luckily there are things like full perm mesh that allows you to mod the heck out of it and rebuild and recreate as you wish. And there is always the option to invest time  (just like creators do) and learn to mesh and texture, to be able to create the exact item, size. colour and look you want.

[xDancingStarx]

1 hour ago, Salt Peppermint said:

I can only speak from my personal experience and agree to the reason of making anything mod, not only triples the customer service time but raises it into orbit, leaving you completely drained and with no time to create anything else

I'm trying to come up with the last item that gave me a headache because it wasn't mod, but I cannot remember it. This is also interesting because I do not often check the "mod" filter on the marketplace. What I occasionally do is unlink certain parts of a mesh, or at least assign a transparent texture to the face so that it's not visible. Not being able to do such only because the creator is afraid of potential additional support questions would just feel terrible, where they could just state something like "no support for modded items" or whatever. In the end, according to my experience, luckily the majority of creators doesn't see it your way.