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Why are so few bodies moddable? A discussion topic!


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Just now, StarlanderGoods said:

I meant HUD, and yes, it is a foul invention, designed to hide poor rigging. But like with all other foul inventions, we just have to learn to work around them

One very effective way to work around them is to remove the scripts. If the scripted object is modifiable, that is.

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3 minutes ago, StarlanderGoods said:

I meant HUD, and yes, it is a foul invention, designed to hide poor rigging. But like with all other foul inventions, we just have to learn to work around them

I know the old pre-Redux Slink HUD allowed you to turn it off. Is that an option in Maitreya and Legacy I don't know about?

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6 minutes ago, StarlanderGoods said:

I meant HUD, and yes, it is a foul invention, designed to hide poor rigging. But like with all other foul inventions, we just have to learn to work around them

I have noticed recently that many stores are ditching the auto hide and adding an alpha layer instead.  Hopefully, with the next Maitreya update (whenever that may be) she will include a body without alpha cuts.

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2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I have noticed recently that many stores are ditching the auto hide and adding an alpha layer instead.  Hopefully, with the next Maitreya update (whenever that may be) she will include a body without alpha cuts.

I'm seeing that mostly just for Kupra unfortunately. 

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Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm seeing that mostly just for Kupra unfortunately. 

The outfit I'm wearing in today's pic has alphas included for top and bottom.  One for Lara/Legacy and one for Kupra/reBorn, IIRC.

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6 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

What has that to do with the mesh being modifiable/not modifiable within Second Life, other than the possibility that someone will be more tempted to rip  a no-mod mesh so they can make changes to the item?

Mesh is mesh no matter where its used.

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2 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

A person's a person no matter how small.

But that doesn't have anything to do with mod/no mod either.

If you rip it out of SL it will be modifiable anyway.
The whole point being - the return/profit one may gain by creating for SL is negligible compared to
the same amount of work if the mesh is to be used in RL.

Edited by Maryanne Solo
Typo
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1 hour ago, StarlanderGoods said:

 The only reason mentioned so far, is performance, and lets be honest, taking two feet positions out of your body is less than a fraction of a drop in a bucket.

With Jake, it's trivial to take 117 links down to 33. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, that doesn't have the massive rendering benefit one might wish, but it's more than "two feet positions".

It's true, auto-alpha is a hideous kludge, and alpha-slice HUDs just as bad. If clothing creators would simply make proper alpha masks again, years after BOM renewed their relevance, we could lose all that junk and go back to the simpler times to which Redux tried to return us. That's one thing I could do by modifying Jake: lose the alpha-slicing script altogether, defeating both auto-alpha and the alpha HUD. Unfortunately the mesh is still the dopey diced-up faces model multiplying rendering lag but at least I'm not forever fighting the gawdawful scripting.

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7 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

t's true, auto-alpha is a hideous kludge, and alpha-slice HUDs just as bad. If clothing creators would simply make proper alpha masks again, years after BOM renewed their relevance, we could lose all that junk and go back to the simpler times to which Redux tried to return us.

It occurs to me that the provision of alpha layers with new clothing just might render my Slink Physique Redux relevant again, even though virtually no one rigs for it anymore. Slink has those nifty sliders for adjusting the alphas, so . . . might work?

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Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It occurs to me that the provision of alpha layers with new clothing just might render my Slink Physique Redux relevant again, even though virtually no one rigs for it anymore. Slink has those nifty sliders for adjusting the alphas, so . . . might work?

Can't speak for the Slink female bodies, but for the male it's pretty rough going to use clothes rigged for any other bodies I've tried. Sometimes can get close, at least while playing minimally distorting animations, but it's approximately the quality of the old "standard sizing" stuff: we used to be satisfied with it, but not so much anymore.

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Just now, Qie Niangao said:

Can't speak for the Slink female bodies, but for the male it's pretty rough going to use clothes rigged for any other bodies I've tried. Sometimes can get close, at least while playing minimally distorting animations, but it's approximately the quality of the old "standard sizing" stuff: we used to be satisfied with it, but not so much anymore.

True, but I've had some success with clothes made for Maitreya on a Slink, with judiciously applied alpha layers.

Sometimes it's worth the effort just to avoid Maitreya's horribly distorted shoulders.

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1 hour ago, StarlanderGoods said:

Cant you already do materials with BOM ?

No. For example, I have one head that always applies 0.1 shine with any hud options, no way to turn it off. If it were mod, I could fix that. Creator says no further updates will be coming for the head, no refunds. Only choice now is to live with it or break the rules.

1 hour ago, StarlanderGoods said:

Also, you can use the animations externally, no reason to link them to the body itself.

"SL is too laggy. Also, just wear and script extra stuff for each function you need to do, no need to combine and reduce."

Still can't script it to work with stuff, get rid of bloat, or yes, fix broken autohide. 

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22 hours ago, StarlanderGoods said:

For prim stuff... okay, but for mesh bodies, I dont really see a lot of use for mod.  The only reason mentioned so far, is performance, and lets be honest, taking two feet positions out of your body is less than a fraction of a drop in a bucket.

So what real, non-theoretical situations do people have that the non-mod bodies are ruining ?

My fully clothed mesh avatar (Freya) has 4 scripts in total, including the Firestorm Bridge (grr), my AO, and an animated bento head/tail/ears (each from a different creator, using their proper animations) as well as separate hands/feet/chest. It has no hidden/unused parts (unlinked 125 parts from Freya), very little alpha blending, and uses less than 40 textures.

Can you say the same?

Just because you personally can't think of a useful/valuable reason to modify mesh objects doesn't mean that the feature should be disabled for everybody across the board. That's pretty anti-consumer behavior. There needs to a reason to make something no-modify, not the other way around.

For example, I've been in many SLMC (military community) groups where each group is responsible for developing its own... everything. When you join the group (and spend time in it), you will be given free stuff that's been created specifically for the group, and it will stop working if you're no longer an active member. In a proprietary context like this, no-modify makes sense.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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6 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

My fully clothed mesh avatar (Freya) has 4 scripts in total, including the Firestorm Bridge (grr), my AO, and an animated bento head/tail/ears (each from a different creator, using their proper animations) as well as separate hands/feet/chest. It has no hidden/unused parts (unlinked 125 parts from Freya), very little alpha blending, and uses less than 40 textures.

Can you say the same?

I mean, I cant fault you, because you have never seen me in-world, but your avatar is orders of magnitude heavier than mine.

6 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Just because you personally can't think of a useful/valuable reason to modify mesh objects doesn't mean that the feature should be disabled for everybody across the board. That's pretty anti-consumer behavior. There needs to a reason to make something no-modify, not the other way around.

That is exactly why I asked for specific examples, because I cant think of any.   So far, Paul Hexem is the only one with a serious issue that can only be fixed by modding the head, and there is no way around the issue.  The other few examples, while valid, seem to be more about quality of life rather than bricking a body for being no-mod.

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The answer is the same every time this comes up with any other creator or product. It's no-mod because they don't want you to mod it. They don't want you missing with things or breaking them. They don't want you to change it. They're the creator. It's their choice and power to do. People really need to hurry up and get over this.

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I bought a car in RL.  Paid a heck of a lot more than anything in SL.  Changed the wheels, added this and that, painted flames on the side.  Wouldn't it be unfair if the car makers said, " nope, can't do any of that because we don't want you messing with our creation".  Yet I can't mod that item I paid a few cents/dollars for in SL?  Really?

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On 3/28/2022 at 7:13 AM, Lucia Nightfire said:

The "What if they unlink and relink it out of order?" argument is a joke in this day and age and I've heard many a CSR and head/body scripter cite it.

For almost 5 years, we've been in the era of OBJECT_CREATION_TIME which is effectively a unique identifier for mesh.

I've written alpha cut show/hide and applier scripts that work on bodies no matter what links are added, removed, renamed and in any link order.

Anyone citing antiquated concepts needs to update their scripting education. 😤

That's fabulous that you're an amazing scripter. You must feel great for being such an exception person. Now if you're get off your soapbox, the street cleaners are coming. Not every 3d modeler is a software engineer. Not everyone has time to learn every single detail about LSL by rote. Some people just have time to make something good enough because that's not the focus of the product. So instead of condemning people for not being as exceptional as you are, maybe understand why they are doing what they do. Or hell, why not offer that scripting reeducation yourself? If you want to improve the quality of scripting in SL, maybe you should lead that charge instead of hoarding that skill and then condemning others for not having it.

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I'm always a bit puzzled as to why this subject creates so much contention.

Like most people here, I wish that more avatar components, accessories, and clothing were "mod." I doubt I'd do a lot of modifications, but there certainly have been occasions when I'd have liked to.

But were I to limit my purchases of these things to items that had mod perms, my choices would be severely limited. So I don't. (Structures, decorative objects, vehicles, furniture, and so forth, are a different thing: I won't buy these if they are no-mod.)

I'm not particularly impressed with the "don't mess with my perfect creation!" argument: I'm not buying art, I'm buying objects that I want to modify to make them uniquely me, which is the whole point of avatar customization.

I do suspect that selling objects mod would increase the volume of people requiring assistance of CSRs, and so forth, but I don't think that in itself is a compelling enough argument. There are ways to respond to that. So I think more clothing and avatar components could, and should, be mod.

But what I, or you, or anyone thinks on this subject is kinda irrelevant. Creators mostly don't want to do this. And, given the free market system and lack of guidance, incentive, or coercion from above, the only thing likely to change their minds about this is market forces. Enough people have to start demanding mod items, that sales of no-mod goods start actually suffering.

And that's just not going to happen.

So, SL will drift along in its own inimitably inefficient way, with creators calling the shots, and a mostly oblivious, passive, or indifferent community of consumers making do . . . because mobilizing to a degree that might compel change is work, and not much fun.

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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11 hours ago, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

That's fabulous that you're an amazing scripter. You must feel great for being such an exception person. Now if you're get off your soapbox, the street cleaners are coming. Not every 3d modeler is a software engineer. Not everyone has time to learn every single detail about LSL by rote. Some people just have time to make something good enough because that's not the focus of the product. So instead of condemning people for not being as exceptional as you are, maybe understand why they are doing what they do. Or hell, why not offer that scripting reeducation yourself? If you want to improve the quality of scripting in SL, maybe you should lead that charge instead of hoarding that skill and then condemning others for not having it.

I have directly contacted mesh head/body creators, their CSRs and their scripters about what I mentioned only to get excuses in return.

From Creators:

  • "Making it mod would cause an increased workload for my CSRs even if we offered an optional mod version with a disclaimer".
  • "My scripter is like family and I trust that they know what they're been doing."
  • "My scripter charges me $5000 per script change. I have to wait 1 or 2 years before I can make enough revenue to afford another change and I have other things I'd want to change by then."

From CSRs:

  • "But what if they break it? They'll ask me what they did wrong and I don't want to have to deal with it."
  • "Our creator and/or scripter is too busy."

From Scripters:

  • "Yeah, but I've been doing it my way forever and it's been fine and I don't want to change anything now."
  • "IDK anything about it and don't want to bother looking into it. What I have right now works for me."

Translation:

  • I'm making money and don't want to rock the boat. I want to stay on this gravy train as long as possible doing as little as possible.
Edited by Lucia Nightfire
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1 hour ago, Lucia Nightfire said:
  • I'm making money and don't want to rock the boat. I want to stay on this gravy train as long as possible doing as little as possible.

Ya put ya mesh tush in..
Ya put ya mesh tush out..
GIve it a wiggle n shake it all about..
Ya wag your pointy finger
count them lindens not a doubt!
THATS WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT! *\0/*
 

hp-hp2.gif

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I still think the "customers make mah stuff look woooorse if I let them mod!11" sentiment is wrong. 
My outfits work and look better when I am able to match my things. 
As for body - I waited a LONG time to be able to make tattoos fullbright and glow. I could've done that from day one if the body would have been mod. But I had to wait until those functionalities are build in. 
I''ll need to dish out the big bucks and buy a lelutka head if I want those functions for my head as well, and I DO want those. But nooo, my head, despite me really liking it, is no mod, and it will likely never get an update, so yeah, sucks to be me, because I like it. 
Especially since the Lelutkaheads don't work well with my Fallen Gods Skins, but look super lovely on my current head. So there's certain combinations that will be out of my reach, because no mod. And that *****'s frustrating.

also, I like to combine items, and sometimes that only works if I can make certain parts invisible.
Grrr.

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1 hour ago, Sukubia Scarmon said:

I like to combine items, and sometimes that only works if I can make certain parts invisible.

I like shedding unused mesh links, unused scripts and consolidating mesh to save attach points.

I also brought these points up to creators and CSRs to no avail.

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