Why are so few bodies moddable? A discussion topic!

[Qie Niangao]

10 hours ago, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

That's fabulous that you're an amazing scripter. You must feel great for being such an exception person. Now if you're get off your soapbox, the street cleaners are coming. Not every 3d modeler is a software engineer. Not everyone has time to learn every single detail about LSL by rote. Some people just have time to make something good enough because that's not the focus of the product. So instead of condemning people for not being as exceptional as you are, maybe understand why they are doing what they do. Or hell, why not offer that scripting reeducation yourself? If you want to improve the quality of scripting in SL, maybe you should lead that charge instead of hoarding that skill and then condemning others for not having it.

Huh? This arises in the context of a script being able to simply rediscover which links are which. Although the OBJECT_CREATION_TIME value is handy for this, there are a host of other viable ways to do it that have been explained in scripting forums and groups since forever, any time anybody asks. Because this only affects scripted objects—they're the only ones for which link identity can matter—not having the basic facility of dealing with link order change would be a simple bug. Such scripts simply should not exist, and anybody without the interest or ability to write scripts with this minimal functionality shouldn't be writing scripts at all. That doesn't mean they shouldn't contribute content, but that content either needs to use competent third party scripts or the objects shouldn't be scripted—and modifiable products typically need fewer scripts if any.

Those creators who are absolutely compelled to create no-mod content "really need to hurry up and get over" the fact that their content is inherently inferior for being no-mod. They may not understand that, and that's fine, but the lack of modifiability reduces the value of the product, inherently, with only very specialized exceptions (mostly gambling and certain other games).

It's also fine to just accept that inferior, no-mod content can be better than none at all. Modifiable scripts, for example, might be more valuable to some customers, but we accept that such full perm scripts would need to be priced far above that extra value for most customers. Creators of other, non-script content are free to make a similar calculation, but they shouldn't delude themselves about the values in that tradeoff.

Specific to the subject of this thread, Belleza's recent release provides an undeniable existence proof that modifiable mesh bodies are quite commercially viable: The benefits may not be universal but the costs are zero.

[Silent Mistwalker]

11 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But what I, or you, or anyone thinks on this subject is kinda irrelevant. Creators mostly don't want to do this. And, given the free market system and lack of guidance, incentive, or coercion from above, the only thing likely to change their minds about this is market forces. Enough people have to start demanding mod items, that sales of no-mod goods start actually suffering.

I gave up on trying to convince them of the errors of their ways years ago. All that money they could have made off me is gone forever now. Their loss, not mine. I just had to get used to doing without. Easy enough since I've always had to do without so others could have.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

18 hours ago, StarlanderGoods said:

I mean, I cant fault you, because you have never seen me in-world, but your avatar is orders of magnitude heavier than mine.

Although I worded the post to compare myself to yourself, look at it in a more general context. My avatar is significantly lighter than the average mesh avatar by most metrics. But I can get even more general than that:

18 hours ago, StarlanderGoods said:

That is exactly why I asked for specific examples, because I cant think of any.   So far, Paul Hexem is the only one with a serious issue that can only be fixed by modding the head, and there is no way around the issue.  The other few examples, while valid, seem to be more about quality of life rather than bricking a body for being no-mod.

I value creativity above all else in Second Life; performance, quality of life, or anything else is secondary. No-modify for general consumer products goes against what the essence of Second Life is -- user-created content.

If everything was no-modify by default (and it has become that way in large parts), Second Life would be a worse place.

It's great that someone can spend the time to create a 3D model/rig a piece of clothing that looks good and make money from it. It's even greater when someone who can't make a 3D models/rig can buy it and create their own texture for it (adding further creativity) rather than having an arbitrarily limited set of choices.

That's the foundation for any argument I have against no-modify. Being able to optimize my avatar is just one aspect of how I want to express myself and I don't demand/expect others to do the same even if they had the option.

I never blame the people who buy "heavy" content, since it's not the end-user's responsibility to fix SL's problems. That responsibility sits on the shoulders of the people creating content and sharing it publicly, as well as Linden Lab who should work on improving the systems we have to enable more/better content (such as the evolution from prims -> sculpts -> mesh -> fitted mesh -> bakes on mesh).

Edited April 7, 2022 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

as well as Linden Lab who should work on improving the systems we have to enable more/better content (such as the evolution from prims -> sculpts -> mesh -> fitted mesh -> bakes on mesh).

LL aren't really aware of the problems till the noise from users becomes deafening because they don't engage with the platform or its content in the same way as users do (if at all).

 Visit any LL developer meeting and marvel at the vintage avatars that got made when they joined the company years ago and never revisited ever again.

[StarlanderGoods]

2 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Although I worded the post to compare myself to yourself, look at it in a more general context. My avatar is significantly lighter than the average mesh avatar by most metrics. But I can get even more general than that:

I value creativity above all else in Second Life; performance, quality of life, or anything else is secondary. No-modify for general consumer products goes against what the essence of Second Life is -- user-created content.

If everything was no-modify by default (and it has become that way in large parts), Second Life would be a worse place.

It's great that someone can spend the time to create a 3D model/rig a piece of clothing that looks good and make money from it. It's even greater when someone who can't make a 3D models/rig can buy it and create their own texture for it (adding further creativity) rather than having an arbitrarily limited set of choices.

That's the foundation for any argument I have against no-modify. Being able to optimize my avatar is just one aspect of how I want to express myself and I don't demand/expect others to do the same even if they had the option.

I never blame the people who buy "heavy" content, since it's not the end-user's responsibility to fix SL's problems. That responsibility sits on the shoulders of the people creating content and sharing it publicly, as well as Linden Lab who should work on improving the systems we have to enable more/better content (such as the evolution from prims -> sculpts -> mesh -> fitted mesh -> bakes on mesh).

Just a reminder, the OP is about mesh bodies, not objects in general. There really is a lot less wiggle room with bodies, from a technical point of view. If you want to retexture it, you can regarless of it being no-mod (at least all the ones I checked), you cant really edit the mesh itself, at most you can add or remove things, wich you can do even if it´s no-mod, by hiding parts and attaching mods.  I asked for specific situations, and I was answered, two people had issues with heads texturing effects (heads count as bodies I would asume).

[Janet Voxel]

I guess we aren't going to talk about how there are three mod bodies on the market now: Freya, Kahlene Erika and Ebody reborn. When last year there were none?

No?

Progress?

Edited April 7, 2022 by Janet Voxel

[Mollymews]

On 4/6/2022 at 7:18 AM, Arielle Popstar said:

The ability to modify the name at least would reduce the clutter substantially.

agree

this is the thing I dislike about no-modify the most

is probably way to late to ask for this now, but I would like for each asset inventory listing to have a always modifiable inventory display name

never say never tho, can always hope. Might happen should we also get a always modifiable inventory display glyph/image for an inventory asset listing as well, as you suggested the other day in the other conversation about inventory

[HarrisonMcKenzie]

11 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

I have directly contacted mesh head/body creators, their CSRs and their scripters about what I mentioned only to get excuses in return.

From Creators:

• "Making it mod would cause an increased workload for my CSRs even if we offered an optional mod version with a disclaimer".
• "My scripter is like family and I trust that they know what they're been doing."
• "My scripter charges me $5000 per script change. I have to wait 1 or 2 years before I can make enough revenue to afford another change and I have other things I'd want to change by then."

From CSRs:

• "But what if they break it? They'll ask me what they did wrong and I don't want to have to deal with it."
• "Our creator and/or scripter is too busy."

From Scripters:

• "Yeah, but I've been doing it my way forever and it's been fine and I don't want to change anything now."
• "IDK anything about it and don't want to bother looking into it. What I have right now works for me."

Translation:

• I'm making money and don't want to rock the boat. I want to stay on this gravy train as long as possible doing as little as possible.

Those are all answers. That you don't want to accept those answers is your problem.

As always, I will remind people. If you want to texture and colour clothes, contact creators you like to see if they'll do that for you, or buy full permission items and make them yourself. Every single time this topic comes up, people are given answer after answer as to why this is done. But you never want the answer. You're either looking the ***** and moan, or you're looking for a fight.

I gave an answer. It is the answer to this question. I'm out.

[Rowan Amore]

Let's hope

 

[Lucia Nightfire]

1 hour ago, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

Those are all answers. That you don't want to accept those answers is your problem.

As always, I will remind people. If you want to texture and colour clothes, contact creators you like to see if they'll do that for you, or buy full permission items and make them yourself. Every single time this topic comes up, people are given answer after answer as to why this is done. But you never want the answer. You're either looking the ***** and moan, or you're looking for a fight.

I gave an answer. It is the answer to this question. I'm out.

I gave you my answers as well. Don't like it. Deal with it. 😎

Sounds like you're the only one taking the subject personal.

I wonder why that is. 🤔

[Qie Niangao]

13 hours ago, Janet Voxel said:

I guess we aren't going to talk about how there are three mod bodies on the market now: Freya, Kahlene Erika and Ebody reborn. When last year there were none?

No?

Progress?

Earlier I mentioned Jake, too. This all could be the start of a trend. Maybe there are things that would promote it.

• For example, one could replace the scripts that come with the bodies and/or augment their features.
• Almost certainly modifiable bodies will be the first to take advantage of glTF material surface assets (and eventually PBR), and it will be up to third party creators working with that mod ability to make it work. Also, with modifiable bodies, we should be able to fix or work around mesh misfeatures, unlike the problems that crippled the BoM roll-out. (Some will  remember rolling their own appliers for the system BoM textures, only to discover they couldn't use alpha-masks because, being no-mod, there was no way to turn off all blended alpha.)
• I've often wondered whether there could be a shopping event that required all participants to sell only modifiable content at the event. I'd shop the hell out of that event—it would save so much time, disappointment, and frustration—and I bet there are a bunch of us who'd be there with L$ wallet wide open. Somebody with a clue how to run shopping events should make this happen.

[Lucia Nightfire]

5 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

I've often wondered whether there could be a shopping event that required all participants to sell only modifiable content at the event.

There is one. It is called [MOD]IFY.

[Arielle Popstar]

18 hours ago, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

Those are all answers. That you don't want to accept those answers is your problem.

As always, I will remind people. If you want to texture and colour clothes, contact creators you like to see if they'll do that for you, or buy full permission items and make them yourself. Every single time this topic comes up, people are given answer after answer as to why this is done. But you never want the answer. You're either looking the ***** and moan, or you're looking for a fight.

I gave an answer. It is the answer to this question. I'm out.

We are looking for solutions, not the excuses you provided.

[Lucia Nightfire]

Yesterday, Signature released new versions of most of their bodies as well as a new head and body, but sadly, did not take the initiative to offer an optional mod version. ☹️

I even reached out to the creator about the possibility almost 3 months prior, but go no reply back. 😕

Edited April 9, 2022 by Lucia Nightfire

[Eddy Vortex]

I didn't know my body shined because I have Advanced Lighting Model disabled.

This is one reason why we need modifiable bodies.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Eddy Vortex