Thank you, Linden Lab.

[Chris Corvinus]

So I had this group with over 800 people in it connected to a sim I had closed over a year ago. The group has been defunct for the same length of time. I had just forgotten about it and finally got around to kicking out the remaining 200 or so people who were left so the group could be deleted. Problem is, LL...in their infinite wisdom, has it so when you remove people from a group, they are all notified about their ejection. Ever since this morning, I have had random people IM me asking why they were kicked and some making me out to be the biggest a-hole on SL for ejecting them from a defunct group and sim that hasn't been active for over a year.

Why there is no option of not notifying people of ejection is beyond me. So Thank you for a full day of absolute annoyance because I wanted to get rid of a group that I created 2 years ago.

[Fritigern Gothly]

TIP: Send out a group notice one or two days before you are going to delete the group. Then on the day itself, announce the impending deletion and the reason behind it in the group chat.

It saves a lot of hurt feelings.

[Chris Corvinus]

4 minutes ago, Fritigern Gothly said:

TIP: Send out a group notice one or two days before you are going to delete the group. Then on the day itself, announce the impending deletion and the reason behind it in the group chat.

It saves a lot of hurt feelings.

I did. I did that for a whole 2 weeks before things shut down. It wasn't just one notice. But even if someone doesnt do a notice, they should still have the option to not let people know they are being ejected.

[Rowan Amore]

There should actually be an option, as owner, to simply delete a.group without having to go through the hassle of ejecting anyone.  

[Finite]

Ha I was on the opposite end of the group cleaning a few weeks ago. It was my friend for like 7 years or so in SL and I had missed the notice because I was off for a few days and my messages were capped. (they really need to raise the cap since even group notices and system messages count towards it.) I was a little curious because I like the tag it had for me ("Miss Trouble"). Turns out she was just kicking people out so that she could sell the plot of land she deeded it to. I was worried she quit or something.

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

1 hour ago, Fritigern Gothly said:

Send out a group notice

Sending out group notices is somehow broken since the introduction of Viewer 2 in 2010. Group notices to people who are offline are gathered under this annoying little postage stamp at the upper right corner of your screen, called 'chicklets'. Almost no one pays attention to these chicklets when they log in. Therefore, the majority of group notices are lost to people in SL. Most group owners are familiar with the phrase "I didn't see any group notice" all too well for over a decade since.

This is why so many businesses in SL use special messaging systems (some of which, sadly, are op-out, rather than opt-in).

[Chris Corvinus]

16 minutes ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

Sending out group notices is somehow broken since the introduction of Viewer 2 in 2010. Group notices to people who are offline are gathered under this annoying little postage stamp at the upper right corner of your screen, called 'chicklets'. Almost no one pays attention to these chicklets when they log in. Therefore, the majority of group notices are lost to people in SL. Most group owners are familiar with the phrase "I didn't see any group notice" all too well for over a decade since.

This is why so many businesses in SL use special messaging systems (some of which, sadly, are op-out, rather than opt-in).

LL breaks something and NEVER fixes it. 

[Quistess Alpha]

20 minutes ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

Sending out group notices is somehow broken since the introduction of Viewer 2 in 2010. Group notices to people who are offline are gathered under this annoying little postage stamp at the upper right corner of your screen, called 'chicklets'. Almost no one pays attention to these chicklets when they log in.

In your old infinite wisdom, what was the alternative that this new system replaced? I get offline group notices to my email (and don't read them either) just fine. How was whatever the system was in 2010 better?

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

Sending out group notices is somehow broken since the introduction of Viewer 2 in 2010. Group notices to people who are offline are gathered under this annoying little postage stamp at the upper right corner of your screen, called 'chicklets'. Almost no one pays attention to these chicklets when they log in. Therefore, the majority of group notices are lost to people in SL. Most group owners are familiar with the phrase "I didn't see any group notice" all too well for over a decade since.

This is why so many businesses in SL use special messaging systems (some of which, sadly, are op-out, rather than opt-in).

I get almost all group notices for groups I have it turned on for which can be quite a few as a premium member.  I don't even remember how they were previously but I always run through them when I log in.

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

1 hour ago, Quistess Alpha said:

what was the alternative that this new system replaced?

In Viewer 1, each and every group notice window was presented in a stack in the top right corner, upon logging in, in a rather in-your-face manner. Whenever you logged in, you had to click away each notice manually. And with each clicking away, you would see the next notice in its entirety, enabling you to at least get a glance of its title and contents and the 'Save Attachment' button. It may have been a little more intrusive to some, and maybe this was the reason why LL changed it, but it was way harder to miss group notices this way. Personally, I didn't think it was annoying at all. It was part of my logging in routine. Like coming home and going through the mail in your mailbox IRL.

1 hour ago, Quistess Alpha said:

I get offline group notices to my email

I do too. But you can't rely on hoping that others (customers) do it too.

It's the least intrusive and most convenient solution by far, to my opinion. I even filter them into a dedicated group notice folder in my Gmail. It's just that, apparently, not many residents do this at all.

(Sending offline IMs to email is also great for not missing out on IMs. They may get capped in-world, but they will always make it to email, if you have enabled it.)

21 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I always run through them when I log in

I sometimes do, but most of the time, I've already read them in my email. But again, this is just not what a lot of people do at all. I think it's because they aren't even aware that past/offline group notices are accessible through these chicklets. "I didn't see any group notice" is a real problem in SL because of this.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Arduenn Schwartzman

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

3 hours ago, Chris Nova said:

some making me out to be the biggest a-hole on SL for ejecting them from a defunct group

I had someone sending me a stiff and rather angry-sounding message in the line of "Why the expletive did you send this to me?!?!?!?" after their partner bought them a gift through my vendor.

Some people in SL 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Arduenn Schwartzman

[Phil Deakins]

6 hours ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

Almost no one pays attention to these chicklets when they log in.

I felt the need to log into the forum to comment on that statement.

1. YOU probably pay no attention to them, but that's just you and not "almost no one [sic]".

2. It is merely your opinion that almost no-one pays attention to them.

3. It is my opinion that almost everyone does as I do when I log in. That is, if there a chicklet up there, I read it.

4. If you can't be bothered to read what's sent to you, then it would be you who is at fault if you failed to find out about something, and not the sender.

[Nick0678]

I still have 700+ people in one of the groups that i made.. Don't really care about deleting people from a defunct group but yes i suppose LL should make an option for those who want to delete people.

(I wouldn't use that option though, i love to see people's emotional reactions about losing something that has no value.)

Edited October 28, 2021 by Nick0678

[Candide LeMay]

Re: whether people pay attention to chicklets when they log in - recently I had to look at a series of SL screenshots from various people (to verify a game hud status/score) and most of them showed:

[Mr Amore]

I accidentally discovered Firestorm has a limit of 250 chicklets.

The old system was convenient, when you logged in the notices were given a prominent position and you clicked through them all.

[Prokofy Neva]

14 hours ago, Chris Nova said:

So I had this group with over 800 people in it connected to a sim I had closed over a year ago. The group has been defunct for the same length of time. I had just forgotten about it and finally got around to kicking out the remaining 200 or so people who were left so the group could be deleted. Problem is, LL...in their infinite wisdom, has it so when you remove people from a group, they are all notified about their ejection. Ever since this morning, I have had random people IM me asking why they were kicked and some making me out to be the biggest a-hole on SL for ejecting them from a defunct group and sim that hasn't been active for over a year.

Why there is no option of not notifying people of ejection is beyond me. So Thank you for a full day of absolute annoyance because I wanted to get rid of a group that I created 2 years ago.

Linden Lab isn't to blame; people are. I get this all the time. Someone is a tenant for a time and then leaves their rental. But they don't leave the group. The group even charges 2L in weekly fees as part of rent. They still don't leave. So I have a routine of removing all non-paying tenants from the groups every 21 days or so. And each time I do this, I get a few people screaming WHYY????? and crying and whining, as if some terrible thing has happened because they were ejected from...an open group they could re-join instantly without an invitation. I'm not sending out group notices ever month saying "Oh, hi, we're cleaning the group" as this is just yet more spam and yet more people saying "huh? but I paid?" and not paying attention. Once in awhile, somebody's alt is ejected which hasn't been logged on in months. Why they even have the alt join the group if it doesn't log on is beyond me.

In short, this is how people are, they need to be brought up better, to become smarter and more aware. That's the problem.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

12 hours ago, Finite said:

Ha I was on the opposite end of the group cleaning a few weeks ago. It was my friend for like 7 years or so in SL and I had missed the notice because I was off for a few days and my messages were capped. (they really need to raise the cap since even group notices and system messages count towards it.) I was a little curious because I like the tag it had for me ("Miss Trouble"). Turns out she was just kicking people out so that she could sell the plot of land she deeded it to. I was worried she quit or something.

Messages never have to cap again if people would do these two things:

1. Tie their accounts to an email, so that notifications go into that email.

2. More importantly, learn this one neat trick: each time you log on, right click on any object and block it. 

This causes messages, objects and notecards to flood in that were not visible when you logged on.

Why this is this case or how it is connected is beyond me but THAT it works (on the regular SL viewer, I don't know about Firestorm) I have confirmed zillions of times.

[Arielle Popstar]

57 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

In short, this is how people are, they need to be brought up better, to become smarter and more aware. That's the problem.

It is the information overload wherein the real problem lies for the typical secondlifer. From the moment of login and throughout the inworld time, there is an absolute barrage of text flooding in from group chats, group notices, IM's, viewer and system messages etc etc with short, medium and long term information needing to be retained and or acted upon. That is aside from needing to learn the different facets of the viewers and their features, options and idiosyncrasies. It is really a small wonder that many do not learn all there is to learn in S/L even after being in it for years. Not only learning, but retaining it.

[Rolig Loon]

4 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

It is the information overload wherein the real problem lies for the typical secondlifer. From the moment of login and throughout the inworld time, there is an absolute barrage of text flooding in from group chats, group notices, IM's, viewer and system messages etc etc with short, medium and long term information needing to be retained and or acted upon.

I will believe that's what life is like for compulsive shoppers who have joined every group they can find, maybe.  Personally, I don't recall receiving a barrage for a very long time.  Either I am not a "typical secondlifer" (highly possible) or the typical secondlifer isn't really receiving the barrage you describe.  I suspect the number of annoying message that anyone gets depends on how many people and groups you have invited to send them to you.

[Finite]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Messages never have to cap again if people would do these two things:

1. Tie their accounts to an email, so that notifications go into that email.

2. More importantly, learn this one neat trick: each time you log on, right click on any object and block it. 

This causes messages, objects and notecards to flood in that were not visible when you logged on.

Why this is this case or how it is connected is beyond me but THAT it works (on the regular SL viewer, I don't know about Firestorm) I have confirmed zillions of times.

I have messages forwarded to email but they’ll still cap in the viewer. I use FS mostly. The groups I’m in I actually want to get notices from otherwise why join the group? If a group is overly spammy I’ll just leave them. I mainly run into issues on my alts that I don’t use very often. I’ll shop and send stuff to them and forget to log them on to retrieve the gifts. After awhile I log them on and they’ll be capped and I’ll have to go back and try to remember what I bought to have it redelivered.

I’ll have to try that blocking thing though. If it doesn’t work maybe I’ll get the SL viewer for backup lol.

[Arielle Popstar]

4 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

I will believe that's what life is like for compulsive shoppers who have joined every group they can find, maybe.  Personally, I don't recall receiving a barrage for a very long time.  Either I am not a "typical secondlifer" (highly possible) or the typical secondlifer isn't really receiving the barrage you describe.  I suspect the number of annoying message that anyone gets depends on how many people and groups you have invited to send them to you.

I am too frugal ie cheap to be considered compulsive but otoh so many stores require a group join for certain rights and benefits as well as easy access to their newest locations. That alone is a fairly large source of spam. Add to that fact that in some cases it seems like when I join certain groups, I open myself up to advertising spam that wasn't even a part of the actual group. That is hard to track down and remove. Add to that club announcements and the just general Groups for viewer help etc, it adds up quickly without even trying.

[Prokofy Neva]

13 minutes ago, Finite said:

I have messages forwarded to email but they’ll still cap in the viewer. I use FS mostly. The groups I’m in I actually want to get notices from otherwise why join the group? If a group is overly spammy I’ll just leave them. I mainly run into issues on my alts that I don’t use very often. I’ll shop and send stuff to them and forget to log them on to retrieve the gifts. After awhile I log them on and they’ll be capped and I’ll have to go back and try to remember what I bought to have it redelivered.

I’ll have to try that blocking thing though. If it doesn’t work maybe I’ll get the SL viewer for backup lol.

It definitely works. It has worked for years. I noticed it stopped working for some reason recently for a few weeks, then started working again. Who knows why. 

You have to remember the unblock the thing you blocked so that you aren't upset later by something that should talk to you not talking. That's why usually I block some neighbour's rock or something that won't matter if I forget.

I simply do not understand this logic of forcing you to join a group to pick up a gift or even get the notecard of where the sales are. What is the point? People like me only leave the group immediately or put the group on inactive alts that aren't the shoppers. It's really insane. Is there a script that dynamically updates you all day on your group membership so you can tell if a sale was a success? Is that the point?

If so, I haven't seen such a script. There are people with the time to spot check groups all day and check their census? That would not be me, I check the once a month. And to what end? It's not a data point as the coming and going is for various reasons.

Spam would be immensely reduced it merchants' groups would stop this insane and idiotic practice. If you have a hard core of fans who want to sit and inanely chatter about your product all day, and veer off topic to other insanities and vulgarities until a mod comes in and starts banning people, so they can't then get news of sales or use the gatcha exchanger, that's fine, you do that, if that works for you. You know I'll have long exited such a group for these reasons of spam and chatter anyway.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

7 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

YOU probably pay no attention to them

No, as I said, I pay attention to them myself, but I found through experience, very few people seem to do, since I've heard so many times myself and via others that people "didn't see the notitice"

Good for you that you felt you needed to log in for this. To be honest, I saw your name in the bell menu and my first reaction was: what am I supposed to disagree with this time? And you delivered like clockwork. Now you accuse me of projection, while I base my conclusion on solid observations over the the course of more than a decade. I even made a messenging system to counter this notification problem for someone (out of several merchants) who concluded the same thing.

To be honest, I agreed with you,once. Quite recently even, but I totally forgot what it was about. But for the rest, whatever comes out of your keyboard, I never agree with. So, you know what? I'm just going to hide you, because I don't have to put up with these baseless speculations. Don't give up on going through the trouble of logging in to react to my comments. Keep up the good job.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Arduenn Schwartzman

[Prokofy Neva]

34 minutes ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

No, as I said, I pay attention to them myself, but I found through experience, very few people seem to do, since I've heard so many times myself and via others that people "didn't see the notitice"

Good for you that you felt you needed to log in for this. To be honest, I saw your name in the bell menu and my first reaction was: what am I supposed to disagree with this time? And you delivered like clockwork. Now you accuse me of projection, while I base my conclusion on solid observations over the the course of more than a decade. I even made a messenging system to counter this notification problem for someone (out of several merchants) who concluded the same thing.

To be honest, I agreed with you,once. Quite recently even, but I totally forgot what it was about. But for the rest, whatever comes out of your keyboard, I never agree with. So, you know what? I'm just going to hide you, because I don't have to put up with these baseless speculations. Don't give up on going through the trouble of logging in to react to my comments. Keep up the good job.

He does that with everyone. It's a contrarian nature.

So some merchants and galleries are unscrupulous and sign you up on a listserve without your consent but most listserves, which are in lieu of groups, require YOU to subscribe. So YOU are to blame for your own misery.

The annoyance is that to UNSUBSCRIBE you have to go back to their sim to find their subscriber and click it to unsubscribe. I recall only one of those systems that let you unsubscribe right from that automatic notice itself. So...You could click on the URL attached to the notice, but that can land you in the sky in some no-access area where that merchant keeps all their servers and get you an eject/teleport home and even a scolding from that merchant who wonders why you are trying to get into their stuff. It's a bad business. But you can block the avatar/bot that sends them, too. 

There's a certain yard sale emporium that sends out multiple messages a day (12? 24?) advertising their stall rentals to people who were forced to join their group to place items, and don't leave the group because then they can't place items -- except with another manual invitation. Yes, you can click the Casper rent thing evidently IF you are paid up and it will have "get group" but not everyone knows that. Their spam comes not in notices, which I could turn off on the group menu, but in chat, which I can't turn off before a message obviously, but have to wait until AFTER the chat comes then close the group. So I finally figured out just to block that bot chatting. It means I may miss "rent due" notices possibly but who cares? I will rent again, or not.

In the rentals space, many people live in fear of losing their spot due to automatic systems. I don't use them. I like to see what is going on in real time and if there is a story that is legitimate, respond to it. I also see no sense in ejecting a tenant instantly upon expiration and give them a grace period. But a lot of people's prims are tied to a time device that removes their prims (I'm not sure that is possible with LSL -- it didn't use to be but now apparently it is -- either that or they have hypervigilant clerks at the switches).

So people resort to all kinds of things, paying way in advance, asking people to watch their space, hovering around it, IMing the owner in desperation to tell them they can't get logged in because of [good or bad reason] etc. etc. So landowners hold them in thrall with that invitation-only system, in groups they fear leaving, as they may contain relevant notices or rent due notices from that same avatar/bot. I personally wonder why you would spam to people who ALREADY are your customers. Why tell them your spot is "still the best place to rent" when...they are already renting? Answer: you are trying to sell them on upgrades. But does a notification a dozen times a day actually yield results? Do people say, "Oh, wow, I think I'll get ANOTHER stall because I've had 12 messages today!". I think once a month is enough for a newsletter.

Advertising is the greatest challenge in SL for merchants. There is both not enough proper advertising space and too much of the wrong kind.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

3 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

and sign you up on a listserve without your consent

No. Mine required opt-in. Nowhere did I say it was opt-out only.

3 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

So YOU are to blame for your own misery.

I'm really getting quite enough of these baseless assumptions.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Arduenn Schwartzman