Trick or Treat Event FYI

[Evangeline Arcadia]

I posted this in another homes thread but thought I'd add it here (slightly edited) as it's similar to what Querida is saying.

I have to admit I didn't take part in the hunt because of the enormity of Bellisseria  even though I would have liked to (I like Linden type bears ) .  Just the thought of sooooo many regions to search felt  like trying to finding a needle in a haystack. That thought  just took away any initial motivation I had about it.  I know that there have been lists etc. put out and things shared in chat, but not everyone necessarilly wants to have to keep up with forums or chat to get such lists to participate.

I would prefer if there was a list of regions involved at the start to narrow it down. But that  would of course mean residents would have to apply to be pumpkin owners ahead of time, and not ad hoc as it is now, which has it's pluses and minuses. 

Or maybe set up the hunt like the other hunt there has been in Bellisseria with the linden HUD where you get clues you have to work out (cant remember what they're called). But that of course wouldn't have the same invovlement of resident homes, which I do think is nice and seems to be enjoyed by the community.

So perhaps LL could do this:

•  have a combintation of the two, i.e. some of the things Querida has suggested organised by the Lindens (some good ideas suggested there, and some are similar to hunts before) but have some inclusion of residents  homes for those who want to (if no kind of application is required then my next point would be more relevant).
•  Maybe the resident candy requirement is much more limited regarding the number  you need to collect, so that it's possible to get them but doesn't rely on them soley for achieving the prize. That should prevent any 'gaming' of the system

I  think having some kind of annual hunt is a great idea for all the reasons that have been outlined in previous comments in the fourm. But it seems to have thrown up some grips and bad feeling too which is a shame.

So maybe LL could have a rethink about how it's organised for next year? I'd love to see  seasonal hunts Easter/Christmas if it was organised in a different way. It could be advertised in the SL blog which might get more people outside of Bellisseria involved who may never have visited.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Evangeline Arcadia

[Butterfli Summers]

I have read every one of these posts and have been participating in this event.  Here are some of my thoughts, comments, and opinions.

It's sad all the negative comments on this event and that people are quick to jump on a bandwagon to add to the negativity.  With that being said everyone has a right to have a voice...so here is mine...

I have used several methods of collecting candies.

• Using the list provided by Az
• Used the group chat where we were helping one another.
• Use the forum lists
• Belli Hud 
• Driving around aimlessly on my scooter with no real sense of direction.
• Methodically, tping from sim to sim and house to house in one area or another.
• Riding my horse and wandering through the camper areas.

I am now up to over 700.  I didn't dedicate a huge amount of time...because I have a full time job and husband to take care of.  Only last weekend and a few hours in the morning or evening when I happened to be online.  I am a huge introvert and usually stick to myself but have opened up and chatted to a few others also participating as we have shared links and a few was home while collecting candies, I thanked them for participating.

I have only been kicked 3 times by an orb in over 700 visits, mainly because I wasn't fast enough, but was able to go back and try faster.  I was banned 1 time because of a forced tp landmark.

Broken buckets, I just noted those locations in a notecard and come back a couple days later to check again.  All have been resolved I might add.

I don't feel disappointed because I used a list, or that I gamed a system.  I don't feel it was too overwhelming because of the number of sims, I haven't even been to 50% of them, I know because I have been keeping my own list of the places I collected candy from.  I don't feel it was too sparce, because like in RL not every one celebrates Halloween.  You don't go to every single house on a block, you go where the light is on.  Sometimes if you want a lot of candy you hit up different neighborhoods, same as this event...there are regions where participation is high and I got excited finding those little gems!

This was/is a great event!  I for one am grateful for all the homeowners that participated, for the creators and event planners that set this up, and for the new friends I have made along the way that helped by sharing locations.  You are all what make this a wonderful community!

 

 

 

 

 

[LittleMe Jewell]

5 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

Umm@Derrick Lindenis a loophole illegal? In RL lawyers make big money because they are clever and find loopholes. I know SL is Linden Labs to rule over. We accept this every time we log in. But still, alts are allowed, multiple premiums on one person is allowed and changing home 5/24 is allowed. Where is the broken rule?  Besides that you did not think it could be used this way, and you do not like it.

I think you shoot yourself in the foot here. This became bad because you decided to make only 10 super special bears. That is rarer than the most ultra rare gacha. Did you not think people would go crazy? 

And what if people paid alts only to get a bear? They paid because you dangled the bear in front of addicts, addicted to own what only 9 others can have. 

Intentionally changing houses 5 times a day, every single day, just so the bucket can be clicked by the same person over and over, again and again, is not being done in the spirit of the event.  That person (or persons) knows that a glitch was found and they exploited it.  Even those of us working off of lists have to spend hours TPing around those 2000+ regions.

Yes, in RL, lots of people exploit loopholes in the law - that is actually how many avoid taxes -- but a great many of us regular folks look down on those that exploited those loopholes because we view it as unfair.  Why else do you think there is such an uproar in the US about the mega rich folks paying more in taxes?

I don't care how super duper ultra rare some prize is. That doesn't excuse the intentional exploiting behavior.  

Edited October 30, 2021 by LittleMe Jewell

[Marianne Little]

34 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Intentionally changing houses 5 times a day, every single day, just so the bucket can be clicked by the same person over and over, again and again, is not being done in the spirit of the event.  That person (or persons) knows that a glitch was found and they exploited it.  Even those of us working off of lists have to spend hours TPing around those 2000+ regions.

Yes, in RL, lots of people exploit loopholes in the law - that is actually how many avoid taxes -- but a great many of us regular folks look down on those that exploited those loopholes because we view it as unfair.  Why else do you think there is such an uproar in the US about the mega rich folks paying more in taxes?

I don't care how super duper ultra rare some prize is. That doesn't excuse the intentional exploiting behavior.  

I do not like what they do to win either, but should we be ruled by emotions only?

LL is in the unique situation that they can lay down the law based on how they feel. It makes me feel insecure. I like to trust the written words and not feelings and "spirit".

[LittleMe Jewell]

I'm not going to attempt to change your view.  For all of us, our opinion on the activities and how they should be handled are based on our RL experiences and our views of various things in RL as well as in SL.  You opinion on it is as valid as mine.  

Ultimately, it is LL's decision.  Though, since that decision might be influenced by how the Residents view it, giving our opinions here is still worthwhile.

 

[Sparkly Rainbow]

Second Life is ultimately a world governed by Linden Lab - so, their decisions are something we need to accept.

I have not really taken part in this Candy Hunt - I have walked around a few of the regions where I live and collected a handful of candies, but that's about it.  And, I have seen many very nicely decorated homes and enjoyed it.

My opinion (probably unpopular) is that there does not need to be rewards for an event like this.  Maybe a participation gift for anyone that participates.  The real problem with having "winners" is that there have to be "losers" also. 

If the goal of an event like this is to get the community together and have fun, then "prizes" are not necessary.

[Teresa Firelight]

11 hours ago, Derrick Linden said:

Cheaters was probably a bit strong of a word, and that's on me. It's more fitting to say that they're exploiting an unintended bug.

[snip]

I can't give a whole lot of details, but to toss out a number - one individual currently in the running for prizes (if we were to not adjust these numbers) has collected a little over 61% of their candy from repeated uses of a fairly small number of accounts. Meanwhile, the average trick or treater has a repeat rate of less than 2%. Someone not exploiting this loophole should not lose out on prizes they've worked toward by someone who is abusing it so maliciously.

Why use attacking and emotionally-charged words?

You almost won me back when you admitted that maybe "cheater" was too strong of a word.

But you lost me again when you attributed "malicious" intentions to people who had not broken any stated rules. 

Perhaps a better phrasing would have been: “Someone not exploiting this loophole should not lose out on prizes they worked toward by someone who takes advantage of it.”

[Alwin Alcott]

simple rules next time :

no huds
no lists
no tp
no fly or other vehicles
no indoor placement but at the front door
WALK and use your eyes/cam

As with all, if people CAN cheat ( nicer said stretch the rules but it's still cheating), they WILL
as example when the houses were rare... those hammers on the website ..
absurd

and even now whining and scratching false teeth in the darkness when they get limited to fair play.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Alwin Alcott

[Butterfli Summers]

35 minutes ago, Sparkly Rainbow said:

My opinion (probably unpopular) is that there does not need to be rewards for an event like this.  Maybe a participation gift for anyone that participates.  The real problem with having "winners" is that there have to be "losers" also. 

I am not sure if you realize but there is a participation gift for anyone that participates, it's a cute little skelly bear that is décor.  As far as winners and losers, my personal opinion is we are all winners.  We all get a community!  Were previously, most was on our own little islands living our best second lives or dancing around in some club, etc.  But no real sense of community like Bellisseria has provided.  The fact that linden and the moles took the time to create this awesome community and are now holding events we can choose or not to be a part of.  Fabulous!

Some just want a specific bear more than others.  I am not trying to win, infact...I just think the wizard bear is super cute and that is the goal I set for myself.  I won't be upset if I don't get it.  I am happy to participate and the skelly bear is cute too.  I have also collected all kinds of neat little candies and treats not having anything to do with the Hud or hunt that people have set out for us to enjoy.

Using a list or not, flying, tping or even driving around is all in the spirit of fun and unlike opinions stated it's all in the spirit of Bellisseria.  I am not calling you out or anything, you are definitely entitled to your own thoughts and voice on the subject.  I just wanted to share about the bear.

[LittleMe Jewell]

At the very least, I think LL has learned much from this event -- not just about how the buckets get collected, but also in how the prize levels are determined.  We are an opinionated bunch and have likely given LL much to think about for future events.

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

We ARE an opinionated bunch.  Here's mine: I agree with Derrick Linden in this case.  It is cheating to take in an alt army daily and click/abandon 5 times every day in each account..  The person(s) doing this KNOW they are gaming the system and using it as a way to get ahead in the collecting numbers by constantly moving their buckets for personal gain.  Being an adult I have a personal sense of ethical game play and taking in 10 alts for an extra 50 candies every day that no one else has access to is obvious "gaming of the system" in an unfair way.  Just because you can doesn't mean you should.  Just how long do the rules have to be?  As soon as one loophole is closed, someone will find or create another one.  They know what they're doing.  Cheating. 

One bucket/one click per account owner (not parcel) regardless of whether they choose to move or not.  All this "you didn't specify that this isn't allowed" stuff is bunk.  One bucket/one click per account.

 

So, yay?  You found a way to get hundreds of extra candies that no one else has access to.  Here's your bear. Congratulations on your innovative approach.  /S off

[Lysistrata Szapira]

"no lists"

Nope. LL cannot stop people from passing around notecards. 

"no tp"

Nope. If you want to see an uproar, start telling people in Belli they can't TP on the continent while a hunt is ongoing.  LL isn't going to disable all TPs on Belli.
 

"no fly or other vehicles"

Nope. LL isn't going to ban flying or driving/biking.  

"no indoor placement but at the front door"

This I theoretically can get behind, but there is no way to force this.  Thousands of parcels with thousands of layouts ensure there's no way for LL to determine the front door coordinates of every house in Belli.  So NOPE again.

"WALK and use your eyes/cam"

Some people are already doing it.  In order to win the top 10/35/100 bears, that will require hours and hours a day that most working people don't have.  

In short, your ideas overlook the fact that more people living in Belli are NOT playing Game of Pumpkins than ARE playing it (assuming currently the most clicked pumpkins are showing numbers in the low-mid 200s).  Your suggestions would be a massive inconvenience to all the people that have no interest in playing.

I lean more toward a specific bear for a specific amount of clicks or higher.  Make the bears better as the number of clicks go higher.  I know after all the work I've done, if I come up short of the top 35 or 100 by 1 or 2 clicks (I don't want the zombie bear), I'm going to be big mad (and then go talk to a doctor about my carpal tunnel syndrome). 

 

Edited October 30, 2021 by Lysistrata Szapira
Grammar

[LittleMe Jewell]

46 minutes ago, Lysistrata Szapira said:

I lean more toward a specific bear for a specific amount of clicks or higher.  Make the bears better as the number of clicks go higher.  I know after all the work I've done, if I come up short of the top 35 or 100 by 1 or 2 clicks (I don't want the zombie bear), I'm going to be big mad (and then go talk to a doctor about my carpal tunnel syndrome). 

I like the idea of a reward for different levels.  If I don't manage to make the top 100 at least, I won't be mad, but I'll be quite disappointed - especially since there will likely be know way of knowing if I missed it by just a couple of clicks or by many, many clicks (unless they post the actual number of buckets for the various winners).  As Marianne said, we have no way of knowing if we are doing well, really well, not so great, need to try harder, etc...

Edited October 30, 2021 by LittleMe Jewell

[Rabid Cheetah]

On 10/29/2021 at 3:48 PM, Mollymews said:

yes this ^^

when the objective is to foster goodwill in a community then these kinds of events should offer participatory awards. Everybody who participates and puts in the effort gets rewarded commensurately. It shoudn't be set up like a sporting competition where some win and others don't. No matter how much effort and time the non-winners put in

there is a place for sporting and leaderboard competitions, I just think that community goodwill fostering events are not that place

[Rabid Cheetah]

On 10/29/2021 at 4:06 PM, LittleMe Jewell said:

Oh my.  Since some of us are going off of various lists, we don't necessarily know if we are clicking a bucket for a person that has changed homes.  If I've done so, it has only been because the various parcels were on the lists given to me (and likewise shared around), but definitely not with any intention of gaming a loophole.  Thus I do hope you folks are very careful in classifying someone as a cheater. 

I truly do think that anyone intentionally trying to game the system ought to be tossed out of the competition, but I really hope accidental folks are not nabbed under the enforcement work.

 

And again:

[Rabid Cheetah]

On 10/29/2021 at 4:52 PM, Nika Talaj said:

There will always be people who try to game any system they encounter.  Let's not let those few poor, driven people ruin it for the rest of us. 

 

 

That was EXACTLY my point, way way back towards the start of this thread (or maybe it was one of the other threads about the contest).  It's bad enough that this is how it is in REAL life.  THIS, though, is supposed to be SECOND Life, a supposed escape from the real world.

The solution?  For folks like @Derrick Linden to take @Marianne Little's tier-based plan to heart for future events.  Or, here's a thought:  Focus on stuff being EVENTS, not contests.  Why does Trick or Treat need to be turned into a contest in the first place?  Why not just let folks put out candy buckets and go Trick or Treating just for the pure fun of it?  Why not have the buckets give out actual candy you can have your avatar nibble on?  You'll have so much less coding for the Dev Team to do.  You'll eliminate the need for policing the event.  You won't put yourself in a position of making statements that have pissed of a portion of your customer base.

Look, if we were all so into contests and one-upping each other, we'd go play World of Warcraft or go pwn some n00bz in the wildy in Runescape.  Second Life isn't, at its heart, a competative MMORPG.  It's a creative sandbox.  Totally different customer base than folks who have to turn everything into a pissing contest.

 

Just my two cents -- take it or leave it.

 

Edited October 31, 2021 by Rabid Cheetah

[Alwin Alcott]

11 hours ago, Lysistrata Szapira said:

 Your suggestions would be a massive inconvenience to all the people that have no interest in playing.

 

so?... this topic is about the people playing, and how.

[Rabid Cheetah]

21 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

I think you shoot yourself in the foot here. This became bad because you decided to make only 10 super special bears. That is rarer than the most ultra rare gacha. Did you not think people would go crazy? 

And what if people paid alts only to get a bear? They paid because you dangled the bear in front of addicts, addicted to own what only 9 others can have. 

 

That's exactly what I said (in my own words, though) when the contest started.  Sometimes I don't like being right.  This is one of those times.

[Abnor Mole]

The reason it wasn't a tier-based plan is because being a completely new event we did not have a basis for gaging interest. We did not know how many residents would actually be interested in participating. If we set the bar too high, no one wants to play because the goal seems unachievable. If we set it too low then the value of the top prizes are greatly diminished... and instead of sending 100 top prizes (individually by hand) we would have to send 1000... or 5000... etc. That could turn something that might take a few hours turn into... well, you can do the math. 

Nobody is going to be arrested and perp-walked for clicking on a few buckets owned by someone who happened to change parcels. Even if those few clicks get filtered out on the back end like Derrick mentioned it shouldn't have a significant effect on that person's total. The only way it will is if that was pretty much all someone was doing and the only thing that will happen is those duplicates won't count when we look at the final totals to ensure the fairness of the results.

[Elena Blossom]

2 hours ago, Abnor Mole said:

The reason it wasn't a tier-based plan is because being a completely new event we did not have a basis for gaging interest. We did not know how many residents would actually be interested in participating.

Abnor, you just set a fun hunt and, in my opinion, that is the way to look at it. You cannot take personally collecting virtual candy... Not to mention using 'tricks' to collect more from the buckets...

So thank you for setting up events in Bellisseria... And happy Samhain to everyone

Edited October 31, 2021 by Elena Core

[yestothis]

4 hours ago, Abnor Mole said:

The reason it wasn't a tier-based plan is because being a completely new event we did not have a basis for gaging interest. We did not know how many residents would actually be interested in participating. If we set the bar too high, no one wants to play because the goal seems unachievable. If we set it too low then the value of the top prizes are greatly diminished... and instead of sending 100 top prizes (individually by hand) we would have to send 1000... or 5000... etc. That could turn something that might take a few hours turn into... well, you can do the math. 

Nobody is going to be arrested and perp-walked for clicking on a few buckets owned by someone who happened to change parcels. Even if those few clicks get filtered out on the back end like Derrick mentioned it shouldn't have a significant effect on that person's total. The only way it will is if that was pretty much all someone was doing and the only thing that will happen is those duplicates won't count when we look at the final totals to ensure the fairness of the results.

Thanks Abnor! I always appreciate your responses and how diplomatic you are. Good to know no one is disqualified.

Edited October 31, 2021 by yestothis

[TT120]

I think it was a pretty cool event.  It got people out and about and visiting other places.  I personally had a pretty good time.  I wasn't really trying to get the most candies as I just didn't have time for that but I had fun walking/flying around and seeing all the cool builds people have done.  I got a lot of decorating ideas, got on a few ban lists, got booted off parcels and TP'd home, got about 320 pieces of candy, and met a lot of cool people.  Overall, it was a pretty well rounded event.

[SarahThe Wanderer]

 ^ I second that, I too enjoyed this event, it made me explore Bellisaria something i never thought of doing before, I enjoyed my walking, this is how much i collected by just walking around; not everyday and with no pressure it was just a fun thing to do!
Thanks for this nice event, hope to see something similar in the future.

[ChiChi Fredericks]

Just a bit of feedback, it would be great if there was a way to tell if you have already visited a bucket so you can avoid clicking on it in the future. Especially with some homes looking alike or people adding/changing decorations. with 700+ items out there it is getting hard to know which ones we have been to without having to do a spreadsheet, which seems like there has to be a better way with scripting. 

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, ChiChi Fredericks said:

Just a bit of feedback, it would be great if there was a way to tell if you have already visited a bucket so you can avoid clicking on it in the future. Especially with some homes looking alike or people adding/changing decorations. with 700+ items out there it is getting hard to know which ones we have been to without having to do a spreadsheet, which seems like there has to be a better way with scripting. 

You can keep a list.  

Or just go ahead and click.  If you are already there, why not?  If you've clicked it before in the same location then it will tell you.  If you've clicked it before but in a different location, the click will be removed in the back end.