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Please lower or waive Second Life® fees during the COVID-19 pandemic.


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8 minutes ago, Chaser Zaks said:

 Some may argue "oh but just close it to non-premium", then that has a domino effect of killing the source of income from people without premium but still buy L$.

 

Personally, I don't think LL should waive any fees. If you are at the point where you have to choose between food/supplies/electricity, and Second Life, I think the choice is clear.

Not only will you lose those who are not premium but who buy Lindens, you will also lose people like me. I am always at that point where I have to choose whether to spend money on SL or RL needs, and RL always wins out. Because of this I run a business in SL to earn money to buy nice things like shoes. If I was no longer allowed to do this, my business would disappear, and the people who spend money to support it, would no longer be spending that money. Plus people already complain that SL is underpopulated. How many premium members would just quit if suddenly all the non premium people were gone and there were even less people to interact with.

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Going to be closing this topic as it has gotten so far off the original topic.   I hope everyone is staying safe and having a good weekend.

There are multiple current threads expressing similar views.  Have you asked your grocery store to cut prices? 

It's offensive to me because I work for the UK government on their response to this outbreak. My colleagues and I have been working ridiculous hours developing entire public services in the space of d

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14 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

Why would you think that?

There is a very toxic and very vocal minority in the SL community, but I'm convinced that those people who work at Linden Lab are nice and kind people. I'm sure they discussed similar topics internally, and even if they didn't, I don't want any of them to "take a hit".

I want them to keep their jobs just as much as I want content creators to keep theirs.

Untitled.jpg.78592637acddaebf3d74bcb98745f29a.jpg

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2 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

What was it about when you started essentially the same thread late in 2019 when nobody had even heard of this virus?

That was a different topic. It's not related to the petition, which is addressing something that is current right now, and not back then. It's also no big secret if you know me.

I always cared for the workers. 

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7 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

You mean people who disagree with you?

No, I mean what I wrote in my post. I didn't address anyone personally, but none of that is relevant to the petition, so I will just quote the part you left out in your quote:

19 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

I'm convinced that those people who work at Linden Lab are nice and kind people. I'm sure they discussed similar topics internally, and even if they didn't, I don't want any of them to "take a hit".

I want them to keep their jobs just as much as I want content creators to keep theirs.

 

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@Wendy Starfall I quoted exactly what I meant to quote, as it shows what you think of some of us here.  I did not hand you an excuse to repeat yourself, but you did it anyway.

The fact is you're trying to get LL to take time out from everything else they have to do to work out who is making a certain amount of money and owns a region, and convince themselves that they of all residents deserve special treatment.  Come on, really?

 Anyway those people you say depend on you can find other places to go.  I've often supported talented people through hard times or when they're getting started, so it's possible I could take them in for a while, and I'm sure there are others who would offer.

With that considered, it comes down to you and your desire to keep your region.  That is up to you.  I've struggled myself with keeping a region but it was important to me so I kept it going, and now am at a point where it's stable and lovely.  I have never asked LL to give me anything extra, nor has it ever crossed my mind to do so.

Edited by Garnet Psaltery
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This naysayer isn't a content creater at all. I'm on a fixed income in the best of times so a budget is a necessity always. I have two premium memberships. How can I afford two on a budget? SL is my only entertainment. It is my main source of socialization since I'm stuck at home most of the time even when there isn't a global pandemic. Now if a time comes when I cannot afford two premium accounts, I'll downsize to one and so on. I've done this in the past when I need too.

It has never even crossed my mind to ask a business that does so much for me by existing to pay my way because if they don't get paid, they won't exist. This is why I don't agree with people asking this because I know their existence helps to add to my quality of life. That may sound pathetic, but it's the truth.

Right now I'm sure their existence is adding to many user's quality of life though. Their employees who are working hard to keep this platform running even during this difficult time deserve to continue to be paid. They deserve for their jobs to be secure and what you're suggesting puts their livelihood in jeopardy. 

I'm a naysayer when it comes to entitlement and greed. 

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2 minutes ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

Just ... not pay them then?

How do you conclude that from any of the things I posted?

Why would reducing or waiving fees for those content creators who are earning the last money, cut into the wages of Linden Lab employees?

instead of the extra profit from booming virtual business as someone else in this topic suggested?

What I really fail to understand is how it is fine when some big brands use the COVID-19 crisis to promote their stores with things, such as "Disaster Relief Gift Cards", but me starting a petition that helps out artists who I supply with features, is somehow wrong.

Please try to read what is there and don't interpret any evil or stupidity where there is none. I want people to be well.

Not everyone is a horrible person with some "agenda", especially not me, who has nothing to gain personally. Someone linked a topic about fees that I opened last year, I quit logging into SL briefly after posting this and only returned to support my community during COVID-19.

Don't be so angry all the time.

Don't see something bad where this none.

If you disagree with my petition, nobody forces you to sign it, and you have already left your opinion.

The truth is that I was hoping for a constructive discussion about these details, among other things:

  • What fees exactly could be reduced or waived?
  • What would help content creators the most?
  • Who is closing or has to close their shop / sim who is not part of my community?
  • Are there alternative ways to help out artists, such as having small shops promoted on the Linden blog more frequently. Can popular bloggers help too?

Etc.

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4 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

How do you conclude that from any of the things I posted?

We give LL money; LL gives their employees money.
We no give LL money; LL no pay their employees.

It really is as simple as that.

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3 minutes ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

We no give LL money; LL no pay their employees.

I'm sorry, I didn't understand at first that you aren't a native English speaker.

I will try to express my opinions in a more simple English when I respond next time.

For now you can maybe make use of https://translate.google.com or https://www.bing.com/translator.

 

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16 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

The truth is that I was hoping for a constructive discussion about these details, among other things:

  • What fees exactly could be reduced or waived?
  • What would help content creators the most?
  • Who is closing or has to close their shop / sim who is not part of my community?
  • Are there alternative ways to help out artists, such as having small shops promoted on the Linden blog more frequently. Can popular bloggers help too?

Etc.

If you actually cared for artists and small shops, you wouldn't have made a petition calling for sweeping fee relief for only tier 2 residents and above.

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Some creators earn so much Lindens that they can build a life on there lindens and that Thanks to costumers who buy stuff from The creators and From donations,

I think awarding these creators and stores who have so much Lindens is ridiculous, If some one earn a award then that are the costumers who become poor from supporting creators 

Beside that ! SL is not some company to make money out but a amusement platform and buy lindens is own choice 

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1 minute ago, AyelaNewLife said:

If you actually cared for artists and small shops, you wouldn't have made a petition calling for sweeping fee relief for only tier 2 residents and above.

The petition is for tier 2 and below, not above.

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1 minute ago, PitchyMoo said:

I think awarding these creators and stores who have so much Lindens is ridiculous, If some one earn a award then that are the costumers who become poor from supporting creators 

The petition is not about awarding big brands who make lots of revenue.

This is about real life artists who have a SL stint on the side, and who only have any income at all through SL during the corona crisis because their RL business is halted.

It's specifically for those who always earn less than 1,999 USD a month.

The "Resident 2" economic limits tier. Those artists who earn less or a bit over 1,000 USD a month.

Those people where it makes a difference to have 20 to 100 USD more at the end of April.

Where it matters to have 1 or 2 more weeks of food from this, or not.

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Have a petition, fine... promote on your discord, website and forums etc but please stop ramming it down peoples throats by pushing it out via the Peanut#9 NEWS/UPDATE.
Logged into to TWO of these within a couple of minutes of each other:

[04:43] AO:
Last Friday I started a petition where I'm asking Linden Research, Inc. and Tilia Inc. to consider lowering or waiving fees during the COVID-19 crisis. As this isn't getting the momentum I had hoped for, I've decided to also open a topic on the official forums. Please take a moment of your time to read and comment. Thank you.
-link to this forum post-

[04:45] Collar:
Last Friday I started a petition where I'm asking Linden Research, Inc. and Tilia Inc. to consider lowering or waiving fees during the COVID-19 crisis. As this isn't getting the momentum I had hoped for, I've decided to also open a topic on the official forums. Please take a moment of your time to read and comment. Thank you.
-link to this forum post-

Stop... just stop. or put an opt-out of "items that isn't news related to the product". :(
--------------------------

On a side note, you really shouldn't worry as most western governments are helping self-employed individuals.
...I mean, you ARE declaring and paying TAX on this additional income as self employed artists do, right? ... right?
Since you're on the books and paying the normal self-employed tax rates etc, you'll be fine. Make you sure you apply for the relevant relief from your Gov.

- A

Edited by AutumnSounds
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We all make choices in life and if some one her life depend on a game like LL then he/she made a bad choice, That some one is able to pay tier tells me that he or shy not need extra lindens or promotions but that he have money enough .. Tier cost around 10K - 70K and more each month and my respect to people who can pay that and creators who create nice things to pay there Tier but this is thanks to the costumers who decided to eat less so that they can buy that sweet dress or that bento avatar 

Example, Maitreya catwa creators should they get the right to buy Lindens for less .. No i don't think so. They earn enough by people like me who have to count how much lindens she is able to buy each time she want to buy something and there are times i can't buy lindens at all and you going to askk me to support artists and LL millionairs No forget that

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7 minutes ago, AutumnSounds said:

Have a petition, fine... promote on your discord, website and forums etc but please stop ramming it down peoples throats by pushing it out via the Peanut#9 NEWS/UPDATE.

Please refer to this comment:

 

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4 hours ago, Wendy Starfall said:

I am not asking that these fees are waived or lowered for everyone, nor that they are lowered or waived forever, as we all know that this isn't going to happen. I am asking specially for all of those who are within the 30-day economic limits tier "Resident 2", who usually make only a bit over 1,000 USD a month, and who are the most likely to be unable paying their sim rent, or worse end up unable to pay for their existential basics, such as rent, food and internet bill.

 

2 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

The petition is for tier 2 and below, not above.

 

See, this crucial piece of information that you didn't actually state in your original post changes the meaning of your request entirely.

The overwhelming majority of residents in SL are tier 1; and are not content creators at all, they are consumers. All of the fee waivers you've requested would impact them too, as well as private and public non-profit sim owners, private renters, casual gacha resellers...  there's only ~2000 residents who withdraw more than $10,000 each year, and so would need tier 3 or above. I've got no idea at all why you'd frame such a petition as "please help the creators that rely on this RL income" when proposing fee relief for the masses of the population, that seems counter-productive at best. Exceptionally unhelpful, misleading and confusing. And your answers since have all reinforced this incorrect perception.

So to address what you meant to write: do I think that most private region tier (but not mainland or other land fees) should be waived for the next few months? No, that's insane. This kills the Linden Lab. It's also strangely and unjustifiable prescriptive, arbitrarily providing great financial relief to some but not to others.

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10 minutes ago, AutumnSounds said:

Have a petition, fine... promote on your discord, website and forums etc but please stop ramming it down peoples throats by pushing it out via the Peanut#9 NEWS/UPDATE.

if it's annoying simply start AR everytime it's send, spam is reportable

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23 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

The petition is for tier 2 and below, not above.

 

19 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

The "Resident 2" economic limits tier. Those artists who earn less or a bit over 1,000 USD a month.

 

Well, which one is it? Tier 1+2, or tier 2?

The difference between the two is vast. 99%+ of the population is tier 1. 

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4 minutes ago, PitchyMoo said:

They earn enough by people like me who have to count how much lindens she is able to buy each time she want to buy something and there are times i can't buy lindens at all and you going to askk me to support artists and LL millionairs

That's not what I'm asking, but I don't think explaining it all over again would change your opinion, as I've been adamant that this was only for those creators who earn the least.

What I learned from this topic so far is that a lot of people have little to no understanding that content creation is real work. No creator is sitting at their desk, with a stupid grin and dick in hand (excuse my language) while modelling, rendering, coding or assembling.

They need to work just as much as someone who works in the game or design industry.

But most who do only earn a tiny fragment of what'd be an average wage in those fields.

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4 hours ago, Wendy Starfall said:

The petition asks for lowering or waiving these fees for those artists, and content creators in general, who earn the least and who struggle the most.

It is not about anyone who uses SL for recreation, but for those who earn part of their living on SL.

And there in lies the problem with the wording of your petition.   I fear that this puts regular residents, the one's who actually fund land barons, content creators, designers, code junkies, well, everyone.   IF these fees are lowered/waived for we, the content creators, I fear our customers will experience the brunt of this global lock-down more, you see, they too have lost their income, in fact, if they had not, we'd not suffer the loss of income as well.  

With that said.    I love everything you've done for the community Wendy, I've been a long time fan, while mostly silent, I do appreciate all you've done, and do.   And I don't think it's a bad idea, I just think more thought could have been put into it.   For example, perhaps saying the reduction, or waiver should NOT be given to those who's Linden Balance shows they have the means to pay their fees.   I know this does not help with land Barons who take payment with paypal and or other services, but it's something.   Sure this means some of us will not qualify, but perhaps we could have worded it to say something like, a reduction in fee's based on the percentage of income lossed from month to month.   So if last month I earned 1 million lindens, and this month I earn only 100,000 that's a 90% loss and a 90% fee reduction would be suggested.      

I fear giving fee waivers or reduction to land barons who rent to the general public, will not be passed on to the renters, that they will loose their homes, or business locations because they too can't afford their rent.   So, this is a far more complicated ask than is presented in both your petition and this thread.     

 

Live long, and may the force be forever in your favor.

iBL

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4 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

if it's annoying simply start AR everytime it's send, spam is reportable

I'm covering this in my EULA and privacy policy that is included with everything you get from me.

Spam is repetitive messages. My feature only sends these 1024 bytes of text once per item. If a user owns two items and wears those at the same time, they will get it twice.

It's arguably the most ethical and legit news system inside of SL.

I can't remember when I ever used it to promote things for sale.

The last two news I sent where to this topic / my petition and when I blogged several weeks about the corona situation: https://www.opencollar.at/blog/i-cant-hear-any-cars

People choose these items because they are or want to be part of my community.

It's always used for topics that are relevant to my community, and if you don't feel to be a part of that, and have so much dislike for the things I do and stand for, why do you use my stuff? There are plenty of alternatives for free and for sale. Make yourself happy and choose one of these, but please stay on topic here.

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15 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

Please refer to this comment:

 

Um.  Correct me if I’m wrong, but you intentionally updated whatever this item is that is talking to your customers and directed them to come to this forum, Because your attempt at a petition failed to garner the interest you wanted.

And now that the attention you’ve garnered from that is not what you wanted you would rather those individuals who are coming here now to just disappear?

So unless folks are here to agree with you you just rather not hear from them?

and I’m still waiting to have my question to you twice now or actually three times now answered. Where do you envision linden lab making up the deficit from your Proposed relief package for those you deem worthy?

Robbing Peter to pay Paul just won’t cut it....

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