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Please lower or waive Second Life® fees during the COVID-19 pandemic.


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Going to be closing this topic as it has gotten so far off the original topic.   I hope everyone is staying safe and having a good weekend.

There are multiple current threads expressing similar views.  Have you asked your grocery store to cut prices? 

It's offensive to me because I work for the UK government on their response to this outbreak. My colleagues and I have been working ridiculous hours developing entire public services in the space of d

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4 minutes ago, iBuilder Miles said:

I don't think it's a bad idea, I just think more thought could have been put into it.   For example, perhaps saying the reduction, or waiver should NOT be given to those who's Linden Balance shows they have the means to pay their fees.

When I wrote the petition, I kept in mind that this has to be technically and economically implemented. I don't think it is easily possibly to scan through the L$ balance of all SL residents.

I do think it is easy to implement something like reducing process credit to 2.5%, or waiving the LindeX fee, just as an example.

Both of these things take the economic limits tier into account in some way.

Further, I don't believe that everyone on tier "Resident 1" is processing credit.

There will be many people who use the L$ they earn through gacha resale inside of Second Life. Those who indeed process credit on this tier, will need that money.

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3 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said:

I mean this is just the opposite of reality. Virtual business is booming right now (SL or otherwise), and people are collectively spending more time and Lindens inworld than they have in years.

Regarding this statement, how do you know this is true?

How do you know it is not more people using MMO's and MMORG's but using it freely rather than paying?  

Because I can tell you I will still be a bit in SL although my heart is not in SL right now but I will NOT be spending lindens not even a tip, and I closed some rentals.  If I go to any event, it will be to visit and check in with friends but I need my money for RL now...tips will have to wait until I see a light at the end of the tunnel.  Right now there is no light at the end of the tunnel.  We are in a tunnel with a possible train moving towards us.  So I will not be spending lindens.  I may be there but I have become for the first time in my SL, a free player.    

My post above does not have anything to do with any petition for waived fees, however as per the OP. 

 

Edited by FairreLilette
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9 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

and if you don't feel to be a part of that, and have so much dislike for the things I do and stand for, why do you use my stuff? There are plenty of alternatives for free and for sale. Make yourself happy and choose one of these, but please stay on topic here.

sweety i don't use your "stuff" nor have interest in it, and if i woudl be i'd reported you for every abusive use of the "stuff"... as i can't imagine the build in feature is meant to promote this personal petition
It is on topic, because it's in this thread and you spam it(= the same subject with reference to this thread)  around inworld

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11 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

When I wrote the petition, I kept in mind that this has to be technically and economically implemented. I don't think it is easily possibly to scan through the L$ balance of all SL residents.

I'm going to pretend I did not see that.    You write code, you should know better.    THAT is perhaps the simplest part of the solution.   How hard is it to do an SQL query to find account balances?  Lol.   You made me laugh.

 

iBL

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1 minute ago, Alwin Alcott said:

sweety i don't use your "stuff" nor have interest in it, and if i woudl be i'd reported you for every abusive use of the "stuff"... as i can't imagine the build in feature is meant to promote this personal petition

I see. Well let's look at this way:

  • You stand up for the poor victims who received a max. of 1024kb of text once.
  • I stand up for those who earn the least and who need any help they can get right now.

Neither has anything to do with the other.

Why don't you go ahead and file a complaint about me with Linden Lab?

Please make sure to include as much details as you can. It would help a lot to bring more attention to this topic and my petition. This is the internet, it doesn't matter if the context is negative or positive, every comment made here will etch the topic deeper into the fibrewired fabric that creates this beautiful medium of free speech and opinions.

In the end I have nothing to lose because this petition is not about me.

Give it your best shot. 👍

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5 minutes ago, iBuilder Miles said:

You write code, you should know better.    THAT is perhaps the simplest part of the solution.   How hard is it to do an SQL query to find account balances?

Do you know what these databases look like? Are you sure they can be cross-referenced so easily? How long do you imagine it would take to scan through millions of residents?

Most importantly though, do you think anyone at Linden Lab has time right now to mess around with this, when something else could be much more easily implemented?

I think reducing a fee for a limited time is a matter of adjusting 1 variable, and the likeliness of that happening is much greater than someone cross-referencing big data.

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1 hour ago, Wendy Starfall said:

Why would reducing or waiving fees for those content creators who are earning the last money, cut into the wages of Linden Lab employees?

Because with people who take real-world currency out of Second Life the only money that goes to the wages of Linden Lab employees is the fees.

Edited by Theresa Tennyson
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3 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Because with people who take real-world currency out of Second Life the only money that goes to the wages of Linden Lab employees is the fees.

Is this stated somewhere? I'm not sure where you get this information.

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13 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

 

  • I stand up for those who earn the least and who need any help they can get right now.

 

Is that the people who earn the least in SL or in their RL?  Because as an essential service worker who earns slightly over minimum wage, yet is still required to leave the house every day to go out to care for the more vulnerable people who cannot look after themselves...well I don't need your standing up for me, especially over an issue where - as everyone says - it's a luxury and not an essential requirement to life.

If you cannot pay for your tier/premium/the new hair from Truth, maybe get your priorities in order and spend your isolation time doing something more productive than trying to make others pay for your funtimes.  

As for me, I will be paying my premium at the end of the month for the next three months as usual...no bitching from me about the cost!

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1 minute ago, Wendy Starfall said:

Is this stated somewhere? I'm not sure where you get this information.

Basic mathematics is where I get my information. If Linden Lab is paying you money, that's money that they can't use to pay for their own employees.

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1 minute ago, Jordan Whitt said:

If you cannot pay for your tier/premium/the new hair from Truth, maybe get your priorities in order and spend your isolation time doing something more productive than trying to make others pay for your funtimes.

Please read my original post or my petition correctly.

Nobody should pay for anyone's fun. This is specifically addressing artists and content creators who have a stint on SL and who's businesses are shut down during this crisis.

So their only income is what they currently earn through SL.

If you are an essential service worker, you are getting paid because you can work. These people don't get paid because their business are simply not earning anything at all, and they rely on their income through SL, where an adjustment in fees could make a big difference for them during this crisis.

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2 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Basic mathematics is where I get my information.

Mathematics is a language of nature, where things are represented by numbers.

Where do you get your numbers?

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2 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

Please read my original post or my petition correctly.

Nobody should pay for anyone's fun. This is specifically addressing artists and content creators who have a stint on SL and who's businesses are shut down during this crisis.

So their only income is what they currently earn through SL.

If you are an essential service worker, you are getting paid because you can work. These people don't get paid because their business are simply not earning anything at all, and they rely on their income through SL, where an adjustment in fees could make a big difference for them during this crisis.

I did read it.  Getting your income from SL is a choice.  So to say those people are more entitled than the rest of us is insulting.

And as someone else pointed out, business has been booming here in SL lately.  It's been harder to get into events or to get into some stores.  Not long ago Marketplace was posting "too many people on the site" error messages, and logins are up from where they have been.  People on my friends list who haven't logged in in forever are suddenly back because nearly everyone is in lockdown and this is now becoming their main source of entertainment.  

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34 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

I see. Well let's look at this way:

  • You stand up for the poor victims who received a max. of 1024kb of text once.
  • I stand up for those who earn the least and who need any help they can get right now.

Neither has anything to do with the other.

Why don't you go ahead and file a complaint about me with Linden Lab?

Please make sure to include as much details as you can. It would help a lot to bring more attention to this topic and my petition. This is the internet, it doesn't matter if the context is negative or positive, every comment made here will etch the topic deeper into the fibrewired fabric that creates this beautiful medium of free speech and opinions.

In the end I have nothing to lose because this petition is not about me.

Give it your best shot. 👍

you don't get it do you?

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18 minutes ago, Jordan Whitt said:

the new hair from Truth

Yep, as far as I am concerned, Truth hair and everything else will have to wait.

In my situation, money is for RL right now.   

However, to the OP, a petition is useless for a virtual world.  Real Life Governments are helping with essentials - real life food, a roof over our heads, etc, and even that is grinding slowly with monies to get to real life people right now in America - no relief checks have been received yet.

It's best to deal with luxuries like SL with real life family and friends and/or a credit card and borrow.  Borrowing happens in crises as well as other jobs are created because of Coronavirus.  It may be time to look for a real life job.  

p.s.  The OP is talking about people who make their living off of SECOND LIFE.  

 

 

Edited by FairreLilette
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Just now, Jordan Whitt said:

So to say those people are more entitled than the rest of us is insulting.

Can you point me to where I say that?

1 minute ago, Jordan Whitt said:

And as someone else pointed out, business has been booming here in SL lately.

Wouldn't that mean there is more cash available, and those who are in dire need could get their reduced or waived fees even more easily?

Isn't this argument making many of the criticsm against my petition moot?

3 minutes ago, Jordan Whitt said:

People on my friends list who haven't logged in in forever are suddenly back because nearly everyone is in lockdown and this is now becoming their main source of entertainment.  

There are people where SL has become their main source of income, who create the content that makes SL attractive and unique in the first place, that's why your friends have something to explore and something to do now that they are back.

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2 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Yep, as far as I am concerned, Truth hair and everything else will have to wait.

In my situation, money is for RL right now.   

However, to the OP, a petition is useless for a virtual world.  Real Life Governments are helping with essentials - real life food, a roof over our heads, etc, and even that is grinding slowly with monies to get to real life people right now in America - no relief checks have been received yet.

It's best to deal with luxuries like SL with real life family and friends and/or a credit card and borrow.  Borrowing happens in crises.  

 

 

I wish you all the best with keeping your RL going.  I know I am luckier than most being able to still work.

This kinda reminds me of something that happened a year or so ago where a resident was doing a fundraiser because they were losing their RL home, but they still managed to pay their SL sim tier.  Priorities!

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Okay let me chim in here, I own a webhosting company and still have physical hardware presence in data centers, with a few servers running on aws too.

 

my costs

Cabinet 300 usd monthly rental

hardware, I have 6 dell poweredge-r740 sitting in the rack right now.   that's about 9k worth of hardware.

I have to pay for power, so that's 0.0014 center per kwh.  I pay close to 300 usd a month in power too.

BackHaul from the provider supplying the cabinet with internets, using their switch, is 150 a month for unmetered (which just changed, so no more 50 usd over each month)

Then I am paying for hands on support once a month for the servers,  the data center handles that and helps with reboots and such if I need it or to install updates with putting a drive or usb thumb drive into the physical machines.  that's 75 a month.

 

SO I have 1500 base clients, and another 1500 on aws,  aws it's weird pricing and not a flat fee, so I pay I think 200 a monthish?  maybe more, I have to check, it comes out of the pay I make on the physical side,    now with 1500 clients, some with many many multiple sites,  I bring in a little over 1200 usd a month.

SO I'm putting out 725+ usd a month and only bringing in 1200 usd.   so 475 a month,  so that's not including local and state fee's and the 2 people I employee 1 day a week to handle tickets,  I'm way into the negative,  so if I cut prices, what would happen to me?  I would be shelling out more money from my own pocket to survive,  at that rate I would maybe have a month at the most I could afford it?  maybe?  

Thing is people really need to understand if we put the platform in jeopardy with cutting massive land costs,  we will lose SL as we know it. 

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4 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

Can you point me to where I say that?

 

17 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

This is specifically addressing artists and content creators who have a stint on SL and who's businesses are shut down during this crisis.

So their only income is what they currently earn through SL.

*drops mic*

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Just now, Wendy Starfall said:

Mathematics is a language of nature, where things are represented by numbers.

Where do you get your numbers?

1) Fifty people each buy US$20  worth of Lindens from Linden Lab. Income to the Lab: US$1000.

2) Those people now use their Lindens buy products from a vendor.

3) The vendor then cashes out the proceeds from the Lindens they were paid. They will receive from Linden Lab an amount of money that will be (US$1000 - X)/(100-Y), with X being the fixed amount that the vendor pays Linden Lab (i.e. tier) and Y being the percentage amount of fees charged.

4) Linden Lab is therefore only left with X + (1000*Y).

The fee/tier changes of the past few years have been to decrease X and increase Y. A true "small" vendor will generally come out ahead. You're now asking Linden Lab to both decrease X and decrease Y, and that means there will be less left for Linden Lab.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

my costs

most people forget, as Theresa pointed at just a few posts above, the fees ARE the income for LL, 
secondly most of the whole buying and selling money market is resident to resident transactions.

Edited by Alwin Alcott
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I didn't read all the comments (or many really) but by the OPs logic since Linden Lab should give creators a "break" from fees because of hard times -- then creators should also give their customers a break and lower prices? Any business is risky whether you are self-employed or working for others. The creators here still HAVE jobs where most of the people throughout the world no longer do. They are LUCKY really to be able to still make some money.   

 

The only "help" that seems reasonable to me would be a service where Linden Lab  "froze and saved" full-sized sims for a small fee. Then creators that could no longer cover their sim fees would not lose them but would be able to return to their shops when things get better.  Kitely has the "mothball" feature and THAT I believe would be a welcomed addition for some folks (creators as well as general citizens that have lost their jobs).    

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

Thing is people really need to understand if we put the platform in jeopardy with cutting massive land costs,  we will lose SL as we know it. 

I agree and I'm very familiar with everything else you said. But this is not what I'm suggesting. I wrote "any or all" of these fees and only for "Resident 2" and lower economic limits tier.

That could be something like reducing process credit from 5% to 2.5% (just as an example) or waiving it for a month or two, where we can only hope that this crisis isn't taking another two months. Then things would look quite different again.

What I suggest would realistically mean 20 to 100 bucks more a month for that creator.

During these times, that small amount would make a huge difference.

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7 minutes ago, Jordan Whitt said:

*drops mic*

I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand:

These content creators have businesses in the real life that are dormat, halted, shut down.

Their only source of income right now is the small amount they make with their SL shop.

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