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Please lower or waive Second Life® fees during the COVID-19 pandemic.


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SL isn't a necessity. It is a wonderful escape especially during times like we are currently in. If you cannot afford spending in SL at the moment, don't. If you need to budget, do so. SL is a business. People who keep asking this seem to forget that very important fact. They are doing their best, just like the rest of us are so maybe...just maybe...realize that.

Entitlement isn't a healthy thing to possess. 

 

 

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Going to be closing this topic as it has gotten so far off the original topic.   I hope everyone is staying safe and having a good weekend.

There are multiple current threads expressing similar views.  Have you asked your grocery store to cut prices? 

It's offensive to me because I work for the UK government on their response to this outbreak. My colleagues and I have been working ridiculous hours developing entire public services in the space of d

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Make your problem not someone else others problem with spamming this messages constant  by collars and AO's...

I have not ask for this type of spamming...when I buy this AO . So please stop with it...

Its a bit of an abuse to use  the AO and collars this way because they are not meant for this type of messages.

We don't get it 1x  but  multi of times...its become annoying.

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55 minutes ago, ABoysPlaceMall said:

Please stop spamming through the collars and AOs about this stuff.  

I second this. I wear heartcore, I can't edit the scripts to rip this out myself. I appreciate what you're trying to do, but if I wanted updates/news like this I would join the relevant groups, this behaviour just makes me resent it, so please stop sending this kind of thing through the products themself.

To add to that, enough people are finding this whole thing stressful, and anxiety inducing, they come to SL to escape from it, the last thing they need is to be reminded of it when they come to SL via an object they have no control over. This is a misuse of the ability to push updates to people.

Edited by Elated
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Agreed. While I understand the issue is important, having my various items all hit me with this isn't exactly what I'm looking for when I get on SL right now.

Again, worthy issue, but not a great way to do it. 

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1 hour ago, Wendy Starfall said:

Please keep in mind that it is those people making the platform appealing, lending them a hand with lowered or waived fees during a crisis is a good thing, not a bad thing.

 

I'm very appealing*.  Perhaps LL would care to subsidise my region?

* YMMV I don't really care.

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2 hours ago, Wendy Starfall said:

The situation with quarantines and shutdowns is devastating for artists, virtual sex workers, indy coders, graphic designers and students who have a hard time making a living.

I mean this is just the opposite of reality. Virtual business is booming right now (SL or otherwise), and people are collectively spending more time and Lindens inworld than they have in years.

Relief and support schemes across the world are being rolled out at astronomical expense to protect the most vulnerable and the most deserving. Whether that's food packages for those too highly at risk to safely shop for themselves or income support for the vast numbers who lost their job overnight with no scope for alternative employment in the foreseeable future. For these people, this kind of support is a matter of life and death; which is why governments and employers alike are crippling themselves with future debt to keep these people safe during this time of great need.

And you come here and demand that those who have benefited financially from this crisis deserve even more financial support? Are you kidding me?

I can't tell if it's just ignorance or raw arrogant entitlement that has led to this... but wow. A crisis really does bring out the worst in people.

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30 minutes ago, Elated said:

This is a misuse of the ability to push updates to people.

This forum topic is not the right place to complain about that. The way I reach out to my community is off-topic.

However, as there are a lot of people bringing it up, I will respond to it despite it being off-topic:

I'm sending news to my community whenever I feel it is something relevant to the many people who are part of my community.

The majority of these people are using cost-free versions of my product, or they use my source code, also cost-free.

There is a detailed privacy policy that explains the news, and there is a button to turn them off.

https://www.opencollar.at/privacy.html

There are many businesses who abuse their customer lists to send them ads.

My feature doesn't use any lists, or customer data at all. It is ethical and clean. Anyone can disable it.

I'm trying to look out for those people in my community who are off the worst, and who need all help that they can get.

If you are really this dissatisfied with that, and rather warp the topic at hand further instead of just turning off the news feature, you can always just not use my products.

I don't care if you buy anything, or download anything for free. It doesn't matter to me if you choose another collar, AO, or whatever else was brought up.

I don't benefit of this. You do because it adds content with fun features to your SL.

I care for those artists who need my feature set so their beautiful creations can be and found more easily and made more appealing to customers by offering popular features.

Now, I think it would be reasonable to return to the topic at hand, if you forgot what that was, you can always download the news item through your collar for the original link and read the original post. ❤️

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4 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

And you come here and demand that those who have benefited financially from this crisis deserve even more financial support? Are you kidding me?

That's not what I'm asking for in my petition. I'd appreciate it if you chose to be less rude in your responses to me.

I'm specifically asking for those in the low tiers, those who need any financial support that they can get. Why it is offensive to you that these people pay a few dollars less for their sim rental, or get 3.5% that fee, or 5% this fee lowered or waived, I really don't understand.

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18 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

That's not what I'm asking for in my petition. I'd appreciate it if you chose to be less rude in your responses to me.

I'm specifically asking for those in the low tiers, those who need any financial support that they can get. Why it is offensive to you that these people pay a few dollars less for their sim rental, or get 3.5% that fee, or 5% this fee lowered or waived, I really don't understand.

It's offensive to me because I work for the UK government on their response to this outbreak. My colleagues and I have been working ridiculous hours developing entire public services in the space of days to shield the most vulnerable and to give them the vital support they need to keep themselves safe; while other colleagues have worked just as hard (if not more so) to roll out sweeping measures of support for employees and employers, at a vast cost to the nation. We're literally bankrupting the country at a time when tax income is at it's lowest in decades, because the need is that great... and yet we can't help everyone, and people are suffering with every day it takes us to get this vital work done and with every loophole we miss. And to be clear, our role in this is nothing compared to the (often tragic) sacrifices made across our health service on a daily basis, to keep other people safe and alive. 

And then you swan in, state a falsehood about how virtual incomes are suffering at a time of unprecedented boom in the online economy, and then demand that the people making a significant wage from SL (now more so than ever before) get handed what amounts to a virtual tax break. Only those people though; everyone else, including those who have actually suffered financial hardship from this outbreak or those who fund sims themselves or run at a break-even, still has to pay their fair share. It's ridiculous.

So yes, your request is offensive to me. And your petition is making very little progress because the wider SL population thinks your request is wrong, and potentially offensive.

Edited by AyelaNewLife
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2 hours ago, Wendy Starfall said:

Last Friday I started a petition where I'm asking Linden Research, Inc. and Tilia Inc. to consider lowering or waiving fees during the COVID-19 crisis:

https://www.change.org/LowerFeesForArtistsSL

As my petition isn't getting the momentum I had hoped for, I've decided to also open a topic here on the official forums.

To summarize, I'm asking that any or all of these fees could be lowered or waived during the corona crisis:

LindeX Exchange Fee
Tilia Process Credit Fee
Marketplace Seller Sales Commission
Land Use Fees for Private Full Regions

I am not asking that these fees are waived or lowered for everyone, nor that they are lowered or waived forever, as we all know that this isn't going to happen. I am asking specially for all of those who are within the 30-day economic limits tier "Resident 2", who usually make only a bit over 1,000 USD a month, and who are the most likely to be unable paying their sim rent, or worse end up unable to pay for their existential basics, such as rent, food and internet bill.

The situation with quarantines and shutdowns is devastating for artists, virtual sex workers, indy coders, graphic designers and students who have a hard time making a living. It is devastating to all of those who don't get business right now, who won't get a paycheck and only bills - except for maybe the small amount that they can generate with their SL stint. They will need that now more than ever.

Please consider signing my petition, and who knows, if it happens in some way I am sure that extending such a gesture will not only be positively remembered by an already quite critical and cynical community, but also give Linden Lab and Tilia Inc. an opportunity to be well reflected by the media, and creators have a greater incentive to stay on the platform and rely on it during these hard times.

I don't want to step on anyone's foot, I know that some merchants who are in the higher tiers will be angry with me, but what I'm asking is really for those who are off the worst, not for those who earn more than 1,999 USD every month through SL anyway. I also know that Linden Lab has to care about their own employees first and foremost, which I respect very much.

Still I think this is worth a shot.

Please stay healthy.

Sincerely,

Wendy Starfall

I don’t even know where to begin to respond to this. 

Mostly though I’m just curious to know why you believe you’re entitled to Special treatment on an optional form of entertainment? And then where do you propose Linden lab make up for that deficit?

 

 

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Hi there @ all,

well, I read both sides now, and I think, both sides are right. As we all know, and as we experienced through the years we know, that LL was always very very expensive. I remember discussions on grandfathered sims (it's OT here), remember discussions, when LL closed all exchange-services by TOS etc. We all know, that LL is and will be always expensive, but let us also remember, which things changed because the community, the residents did not react like LL wishes. We all know, what might happen, if many many residents will leave SL or close their premium-status etc... LL then IS going to change things.

On the other hand, we all are aware, that SL is the one and only community, which functions well. Lots of residents are here with a big and expensive inventory and less will leave because of it AND the community. It's simply a choice between cholera or pest. But we won't also forget WHO really made SL to what it is: the creators, the scripter and coder, the creative people around all the world. Not LL alone! All the stuff we all need for our SL is not created by LL, it's created by persons like Wendy Starfall and others. **I** am too silly working with Blender, I am too silly creating my own clothes, my castle, my car, "Mesh" is something my router can do. I would be happy to have a shop selling own stuff just to pay my hobby SL... So I really understand the reason for this petition. So please don't blame somebody for trying. And if she is successful it will help a lot of people and at last - I hope - us all.

If you are not in the same opinion like Wendy, okay. So no need to sign the petition. After all your arguments, I am not sure... should I sign or should I not...

Greets Saskia

Edited by SaskiaWood
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4 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

And your petition is making very little progress because the wider SL population thinks your request is wrong, and potentially offensive.

But you are not the "wider SL population", neither do I have the ability to reach this "wider population". I can only reach so many people.

2 minutes ago, Pixie Kobichenko said:

Mostly though I’m just curious to know why you believe you’re entitled to Special treatment on an optional form of entertainment? And then where do you propose Linden lab make up for that deficit?

I'm a content creator who creates a popular feature set on SL since many years that is used by artists, usually with small shops. I care about those people and I find it right and just to start this petition. I'm not hurting anyone by suggesting these things, and I believe my request was reasonable.

What is "optional form of entertainment" to you, is a substantial part of some artists' monthly income. You can have this "optional entertainment" because people like them create content that you can purchase and enjoy.

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1 minute ago, Wendy Starfall said:

But you are not the "wider SL population", neither do I have the ability to reach this "wider population". I can only reach so many people.

I'm a content creator who creates a popular feature set on SL since many years that is used by artists, usually with small shops. I care about those people and I find it right and just to start this petition. I'm not hurting anyone by suggesting these things, and I believe my request was reasonable.

What is "optional form of entertainment" to you, is a substantial part of some artists' monthly income. You can have this "optional entertainment" because people like them create content that you can purchase and enjoy.

Just stop and consider that it any moment in time linden labs can close up shop.

Without notice to you.

They are not required under no uncertain terms to continue to provide you with this virtual world.

So say tomorrow the labs goes into their offices and shut all their machines down.

So yes I standby second life being an option form of entertainment.
 If one’s livelihood is utterly dependent upon second life now is certainly the time to diversify & Explore other options.

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32 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

This forum topic is not the right place to complain about that. The way I reach out to my community is off-topic.

However, as there are a lot of people bringing it up, I will respond to it despite it being off-topic:

I'm sending news to my community whenever I feel it is something relevant to the many people who are part of my community.

The majority of these people are using cost-free versions of my product, or they use my source code, also cost-free.

There is a detailed privacy policy that explains the news, and there is a button to turn them off.

https://www.opencollar.at/privacy.html

There are many businesses who abuse their customer lists to send them ads.

My feature doesn't use any lists, or customer data at all. It is ethical and clean. Anyone can disable it.

I'm trying to look out for those people in my community who are off the worst, and who need all help that they can get.

If you are really this dissatisfied with that, and rather warp the topic at hand further instead of just turning off the news feature, you can always just not use my products.

I don't care if you buy anything, or download anything for free. It doesn't matter to me if you choose another collar, AO, or whatever else was brought up.

I don't benefit of this. You do because it adds content with fun features to your SL.

I care for those artists who need my feature set so their beautiful creations can be and found more easily and made more appealing to customers by offering popular features.

Now, I think it would be reasonable to return to the topic at hand, if you forgot what that was, you can always download the news item through your collar for the original link and read the original post. ❤️

No, I think this is quite the place to talk about it as it is the topic directly linked in your news push, if you disagree please, feel free to report my posts. Ultimately, it is not "your" community, it is an open piece of kit for anyone to use, most of whom aren't even aware of the news feature. While I appreciate the work put into it, and see the value of the news to give product information, I did not buy anything you made, so I do not expect your agenda, whatever it is, to be pushed onto me.

You are neglecting to address that, pushing this onto people without their consent, people who are trying to avoid the topic because it is stressful, and sometimes anxiety/panic attack inducing to them, is just plain irresponsible. I also never said you abused, I said you misused, and it's also ironic you ask people to be less rude, after such a rude reply to my comment.

You claim this is for the benefit of others, so have some decency and consideration for others, don't push this through the collar scripts. Which are used by hundreds of other creators in their products, going to likely hundreds if not thousands of SL users, who will will not be aware there even exists a news feature to disable, least of all expect it to be sending them updates on a global pandemic they are coming online to avoid.

I'm not going to continue this, but I am asking you to just have some consideration for others, which apparently, seems a lot to be asking.

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3 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

I'm a content creator who creates a popular feature set on SL since many years that is used by artists, usually with small shops. I care about those people and I find it right and just to start this petition. I'm not hurting anyone by suggesting these things, and I believe my request was reasonable.

What is "optional form of entertainment" to you, is a substantial part of some artists' monthly income. You can have this "optional entertainment" because people like them create content that you can purchase and enjoy.

You're still refusing to engage with the core problem here.

You claimed that the incomes of tier 2 artists and creators who rely on online sales (through SL or other platforms) have been devastated by the Covid-19 outbreak. This is not correct. The virtual creative economy is going through a golden era right now, and anyone who relies on virtual sales for income will likely be making much more money than they could have anticipated just a few weeks ago.

The foundation you built your argument on is not coherent with reality. And that undermines your entire case.

I'd actually be fine if your request was a blanket request for waiving certain fees. I might not agree with such a request, but it would have been valid. But to single out the thin slice of the SL population who has gained the most from this outbreak and request fee relief? No. Absolutely not.

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1 minute ago, AyelaNewLife said:

The foundation you built your argument on is not coherent with reality. And that undermines your entire case.

Maybe it depends who you ask because it is coherent with my reality. This is the way I see things based on what I have learned. It's a reasonable petition in my opinion.

You see, I could use the same argumentation against you. How do you know that the business for those types of artists is booming? Where do you get this information?

Probably from people you know, who told you, but that doesn't account for everyone.

I have good judgement because I have been supplying features to artists with small shops for over 10 years.

14 minutes ago, Pixie Kobichenko said:

If one’s livelihood is utterly dependent upon second life now is certainly the time to diversify & Explore other options.

No. Now is exactly not that time. That's what this whole thing is about.

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7 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

No. Now is exactly not that time. That's what this whole thing is about.

I realize that you’re wanting Linden labs to take a hit. I get that is what this whole thing (your petition) is about to you.

I’m just trying to illuminate the fact that it any given time Linden labs can close up shop. What then? 

Asking Linden labs to cut into their bottom line to accommodate those you perceive to be worthy is not the answer.

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2 hours ago, Wendy Starfall said:

The SL shopkeeper can't keep their SL shop when they have to let their sim go to get by this month, and then having lost all in-world business in the next month.

This right here doesn't make any sense. How do you jump to the conclusion that most creators/shop owners own an entire region? And if they do, there shop should either generate enough sales to pay for the sim or they should have other sources of income to pay the tier from. This is very simple economics: If you want to have an inworld store, the amount of money you make with that store should _at least_ cover the rent for the ground its placed on.

If it does not do that, then the whole thing exists "for the fun of it", which is fine of course, but should be seen as what it is.

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2 hours ago, Wendy Starfall said:

 

The Marketplace takes 10% commission per sale. It would be nice if that could be lowered or waived during the corona crisis.

For every 10 percent the sellers pays, he or she collects 90 percent. I wonder sometimes if people get that. It is not a fixed amount that must be paid despite declining sales. There is absolutely no logic in thinking it should be lowered during this or any other crisis.

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LL still has to make money.

Take the following for example: If they waive fees for their sources of income(especially full regions), they will then have to choose whether to use their remaining funds to pay for bandwidth/electricity/server facility property tax/etc, or to pay their employees.

If they don't pay for the first, SL has to close doors it's doors. Some may argue "oh but just close it to non-premium", then that has a domino effect of killing the source of income from people without premium but still buy L$.

If they don't pay their employees, some employees may quit. Not to mention that they too are also affected by the corona virus.

Personally, I don't think LL should waive any fees. If you are at the point where you have to choose between food/supplies/electricity, and Second Life, I think the choice is clear.

Maybe perhaps you can contact support and ask them to "suspend" the region for now, basically keeping it offline but not losing the current state/payment plan, for either a lower price for hibernating it, or for a month until this blows over.

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you know, I hate to point this out to all you naysayers here, but SOME people, actually generate a real, viable income off sl. content creators, some make enough to survive, some don't. I don't think what Wendy is asking for is that out of grasp. Consider for a moment, if you take 1000USD home from your job every month, but your neighbor, doing the same job takes home 1999USD a month, and due to the current world crisis, your income gets cut in half, because consumers aren't spending as much money as they were on your business, Wendys 1000USD a month, becomes 500USD, still nice, but, not enough to survive on. whereas the person making and bringing home 1999USD a month, is still making 1000USD a month, and can therefore, still afford to survive. I think its fair that the costs they incur for keeping their business alive on sl, be waved or cut due to the crisis. LL will still make their cut off MP sales and the tier from those that can actually afford to continue paying it. Wendy, I stand with you girl. All these people not in favor of your argument are probably the ones whose income from sl is still as viable as it was. Kudos to them, glad you can afford to hoard the toilet paper, but those of us who cant afford to continue must suffer? Thanks for looking out for your neighbor who is struggling. Rude. So much for all being in this ***** situation together.

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4 minutes ago, Pixie Kobichenko said:

I realize that you’re wanting Linden labs to take a hit. I get that is what this whole thing (your petition) is about to you.

Why would you think that?

There is a very toxic and very vocal minority in the SL community, but I'm convinced that those people who work at Linden Lab are nice and kind people. I'm sure they discussed similar topics internally, and even if they didn't, I don't want any of them to "take a hit".

I want them to keep their jobs just as much as I want content creators to keep theirs.

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Just now, Wendy Starfall said:

Why would you think that?

There is a very toxic and very vocal minority in the SL community, but I'm convinced that those people who work at Linden Lab are nice and kind people. I'm sure they discussed similar topics internally, and even if they didn't, I don't want any of them to "take a hit".

I want them to keep their jobs just as much as I want content creators to keep theirs.

Well just to keep things straight I did ask previously where are you expected linden lab to make up for the Deficit that would be created if they were to actually incorporate your proposal or request however you wanna look at it.

So yes when I state that it appears you want Linden Lab to take a hit that is where I am drawing my conclusion from. If they’re not generating that revenue where do they make up for it?

I’m not even sure what that means when you say “there is a very toxic and very vocal minority in the SL community”?

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2 hours ago, Wendy Starfall said:

Please read the original post and/or petition again:

This is specifically about people who need the small income they made on SL now as their main income, as they cannot do any business in RL as artists due to the corona crisis.

What was it about when you started essentially the same thread late in 2019 when nobody had even heard of this virus?

 

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