Wanted: In-World non-RP, non-Sexy Spa for Women (but Men Can Come Too If They Insist and Agree to Abide by Certain Important Rules)

[Garnet Psaltery]

This is a lovely idea, though I'm not sure about admitting men.  Perhaps there could be a few definitely women-only sessions?

[Seicher Rae]

14 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I wonder if RL massage therapists might not feel the same way about animated massage table that are focused upon sex?

If anyone knows me even remotely well, they know I laugh at just about anything, including really taboo stuff. But... in RL, and I suppose SL, my massage table (And for FS don't call it a BED!) was sacrosanct. If I gave my own partner a massage on the table it was JUST a massage. Period. I hated jokes about "happy endings" and other things that shed inappropriate light onto my profession. There's too much giggling and snickering and stupid things about this very good, legit profession which keeps people who need the work away from the work. As I said above, I worked with injured and people with illnesses, and to keep them away because some idjits have to hurr-hurr about it, just grated my goat. Btw, massage used to be considered a standard type of therapy until around the early 1900s, and there's an association with WWII vets returning home from Asia.

ETA: The office table was sacrosanct. The office desk on the other hand... TMI?

Edited January 5, 2020 by Seicher Rae

[Elora Lunasea]

@Scylla Rhiadra The ethical issue is one which bothers me in SL/RL too. I have big problems with these things also as far as role play is concerned but to each their own I suppose - though the teacher/student bothers me WAY more due to the power dynamic involved. 

I personally some years back developed skeptical views of the massage industry due to an ex's addiction to illegal massage parlor usage. Took me a while to get back to a point of being able to separate what he did and the places he used, from what I know are legitimate businesses who operate in ethical and professional manners. Really screwed with my head for a few years (maybe one day, I'll tell you all the story of me finding a receipt of one of those "spas" he visited that he stupidly dropped on the floor of our home office, and then me visiting said "spa"  to ascertain for myself that I wasn't imagining things, and confronting the owner, who thought I was the police LOL).

Anyway, one of the best things after all that happened was years later, when I got over that anxiety, being able to go with Ghosty for his first professional massage together. He'd never had one before and he wasn't sure about it. He assumed he wouldn't enjoy it, couldn't see the point of laying on a table for 1-1/2 hours and was sure he'd just get antsy after a while. Booked a couples massage on our honeymoon and well, did he find out how wrong he was LOL. He's a convert now 😂

Edited January 5, 2020 by Elora Lunasea

[Scylla Rhiadra]

9 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

This is a lovely idea, though I'm not sure about admitting men.  Perhaps there could be a few definitely women-only sessions?

Although I am generally uncomfortable about specifying exclusions (i.e., only women allowed), I think that this is something we can determine collectively. I certainly understand the discomfort that might arise from a mixed sex outing of this sort (just as it might in RL), and it would certainly change the social dynamic, but I want to be careful, myself, about hard-and-fast rules that might, conceivably, exclude people who are non-binary (as an instance).

However, this is something we can discuss as a group. And yes, a good solution might be have outings that are fully open, and ones that are women only? (I wonder if there are really many men who would want to do this, tbh?)

[Fauve Aeon]

27 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm sure that I'm depriving myself of an enjoyable experience as a result. I'll start off slowly, in SL, first . . .

I’m totally gonna use my ”strap-on” while we SL-spa...*grins* @Scylla Rhiadra a chair massager might be something to try, if yo have not already. Good for relaxation.

https://www.sharperimage.com/si/view/product/Shiatsu+Massage+Seat+Cushion/207017

Edited January 5, 2020 by Fauve Aeon

[Elora Lunasea]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Although I am generally uncomfortable about specifying exclusions (i.e., only women allowed), I think that this is something we can determine collectively. I certainly understand the discomfort that might arise from a mixed sex outing of this sort (just as it might in RL), and it would certainly change the social dynamic, but I want to be careful, myself, about hard-and-fast rules that might, conceivably, exclude people who are non-binary (as an instance).

However, this is something we can discuss as a group. And yes, a good solution might be have outings that are fully open, and ones that are women only? (I wonder if there are really many men who would want to do this, tbh?)

And the other thing too is we really do not know who amongst us is not female to begin with. 

I have no problem with whomever would like to join us. As long as you are nice, polite, understand the rules and are into good conversation. That's a-ok for me.

 

[Seicher Rae]

9 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

24 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

This is a lovely idea, though I'm not sure about admitting men.  Perhaps there could be a few definitely women-only sessions?

Although I am generally uncomfortable about specifying exclusions (i.e., only women allowed), I think that this is something we can determine collectively. I certainly understand the discomfort that might arise from a mixed sex outing of this sort (just as it might in RL), and it would certainly change the social dynamic, but I want to be careful, myself, about hard-and-fast rules that might, conceivably, exclude people who are non-binary (as an instance).

However, this is something we can discuss as a group. And yes, a good solution might be have outings that are fully open, and ones that are women only? (I wonder if there are really many men who would want to do this, tbh?)

I honestly don't have a problem with a men/women/other only event, but as was also pointed out, how are you going to make that distinction in SL?

In RL my practice was 48/48/4 %. I'm wondering if the "women only" thing is coming from an unrecognized belief that massage therapy is indeed sexual or is going to come across that way. If you had just said "manicures" then would there still be the reticence?  Or is it the hot tubs? Or? 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

I'm wondering if the "women only" thing is coming from an unrecognized belief that massage therapy is indeed sexual or is going to come across that way. If you had just said "manicures" then would there still be the reticence?  Or is it the hot tubs? Or?

It's a good question, and I suspect that there might be a number of possible answers. One might simply be about partial or full nudity? And that, of course, is sort of sexual in nature, because there is no objective reason why nudity needs to be sexual -- but in our culture it often is perceived that way.

The other might relate to what I suggested above: that it might change the social dynamic. I think in practice it probably would -- but if so, that too is based on our own gendered assumptions. I don't really know of any logical reasons why the dynamic should be different -- but it's enough that we sometimes feel it would be to ensure that it is (if that makes sense).

Like you, I don't really care that much personally, but I understand that others do, and I'm not going to insist that they shouldn't feel uncomfortable if that's the case. They may well have good reasons for that. It's treading the fine line between being exclusionary, on the one hand, and producing discomfort on the other, that is the hard part.

[Garnet Psaltery]

50 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

 I'm wondering if the "women only" thing is coming from an unrecognized belief that massage therapy is indeed sexual or is going to come across that way. If you had just said "manicures" then would there still be the reticence?  Or is it the hot tubs? Or? 

I'm way past not recognising what's going on in my head.  It's the appearance that matters to me since that's how people decide to present themselves.  If someone comes in looking like a man (and does not claim to be anything other) then I'll treat and respond to them in that way.  The presence of masculinity does tend to change the dynamic in a group (that's from decades of experience).  I'm not bothered about being naked amongst other women.  That's it.  Others have different views but I'm stating mine.  Room can be made for it or not; that's a group decision, I believe.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Garnet Psaltery

[Pussycat Catnap]

58 minutes ago, Elora Lunasea said:

I personally some years back developed skeptical views of the massage industry due to an ex's addiction to illegal massage parlor usage. Took me a while to get back to a point of being able to separate what he did and the places he used, from what I know are legitimate businesses who operate in ethical and professional manners. Really screwed with my head for a few years (maybe one day, I'll tell you all the story of me finding a receipt of one of those "spas" he visited that he stupidly dropped on the floor of our home office, and then me visiting said "spa"  to ascertain for myself that I wasn't imagining things, and confronting the owner, who thought I was the police LOL).

Most of those are using slave labor. People trafficked in and held there. And the thing about sex-slaves, also similar to prostitutes, is that over time they self-rationalize their situation as a survival tactic. If you're living in that situation, you need to re-craft your reality to avoid insanity. So you put on a smile, pretend this is normal, and your clients start to believe you like it... and often even after you get free - you will return to the life because... it's what you now know, and you feel too much shame to go home. You're a dog that's only known how to be beaten, so you just return for more abuse because it's become what you know as 'kindness' now...

- That then leads to a LOT of former victims defending the sex industry... they've normalized it, they no longer see the scared faces of the day one victims (I have, the first time I stumbled upon this in Asia, and it's something you don't forget), they see "the party life" of being in a bar with drinks and flirting all day long, and think that is good...
If you beat someone long enough, they begin to believe they deserve it - because to do otherwise means facing the horror on an inescapable situation... And eventually, they will even help you beat the next victim...
- So after a certain while, even the pimps can step back, as the long-term victims keep the others in line.

I get furious with people who go to some 'special massage' parlor and then tell me 'oh but she's not a victim, she enjoys this line of work'... because I've actually seen people across the stages of being broken in...

 

I enjoy all my XX and A in the context of SL... but that's a whole different thing from RL...

 

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

36 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It's a good question, and I suspect that there might be a number of possible answers. One might simply be about partial or full nudity? And that, of course, is sort of sexual in nature, because there is no objective reason why nudity needs to be sexual -- but in our culture it often is perceived that way.

As someone who is nude most of the time in SL... even when I have removed the sexual content from my profile... no matter the context, there's always a male avatar around somewhere to IM 'hey' at me... followed, if I engage... with, well, the followup...

There's often a female one to do it too...

the most common seems to be the avatars that sport anatomy of both sexes... they try lines out the most...

But yeah - whether or not nudity in mixed company should be possible without sexual energy... it's there anyway in SL... this place is primarily a 'dating and cartoon porn' platform for a LOT of people... I use it the latter way myself... but while I understand context - many do not. Just as often as not it's the bloke in a nudist venue with the 'nudity is not about sex' profile that is serving up lines in IM.

 

[Beth Macbain]

Several years ago, I went through a period of... er... exploration. Erotic massage is definitely a kink of mine. I met a gentleman online who was a licensed massage therapist, but who also shared this fantasy. I would book appointments with him, go in to see him as if I were a regular client, and get a free massage of my choosing... but it ended quite differently than it did with his regular clients. 

I never saw or spoke to him outside of those "appointments". 

I freaking loved it. 

Getting a massage is an intimate experience - not necessarily sexual, but intimate all the same. Someone is manipulating and touching your body, and you're often nude with just a sheet covering you. I've had all types of massages from a variety of different therapists with different backgrounds and specialties. It's simply not possible for me to get one without also becoming aroused, though. 

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

18 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Hi!!

First time poster here, but I've lurked a lot! 😊😊😊 😊😊😊 😊😊😊

I hope this is the right place to ask this!

Ok, so @Eva Knoller and I have come up with the idea that a "Spa Night" (or evening, or afternoon, or whatever) would be a kind of fun get-together for some of the forumites.

Ideally, we would like:

• Manicures / Pedicures
• Massages
• A (largish) hot tub
• A sauna

The last two or maybe three are probably especially important. Other things would also be welcome! (But not facials, cuz apparently that means something totally different here. 😨)

We've both done a bit of searching in-world, and are having a difficult time finding anything that isn't geared towards *cough* "adult" activities. I've looked here on the forums too, and most references seem to be to RP sims.

Does anyone know of a nice place or places for these sorts of things? We'd be happy to mix-and-match (e.g., get massages one place, and go somewhere else for the sauna). Cute and/or attractive would also be pretty important.

Thanks in advance for your ideas! You people are awesomeI

🥰

I just do not see the point if not rp...

[Janet Voxel]

3 minutes ago, Tarina Sewell said:

I just do not see the point if not rp...

I like the idea and sentiment, but I agree with this. 
 

There are plenty of spa type places, the problem is most spa sims I’ve ever been to have been empty and I’ve seen some nice ones, same with beauty/nail salons. I think co-Ed would work, because ultimately it’ll just be a bunch of us hanging out in bathing suits in a pool/sauna, chatting. 

[Fauve Aeon]

19 minutes ago, Tarina Sewell said:

I just do not see the point if not rp...

My take on it is like a sort of SL ‘gals night out’ activity that isn’t clubbing/dancing or going for coffee/cafe sitting? I think it sounds fun.

edit: I can see the vibe changing if it’s co-ed, seems like it’s supposed to be about ‘gal talk’ which is inclusive because anyone in SL can literally ‘be a gal’ if they want. So all gals welcome? Maybe I’m mistaken. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Fauve Aeon

[Fauve Aeon]

1 hour ago, Beth Macbain said:

Getting a massage is an intimate experience - not necessarily sexual, but intimate all the same.

My experience of it is completely different. Relaxation massage feels very good and I actually kind of feel floaty in a lovely way, not at all ‘dissociative’, more like ‘elevated’.  Therapeutic massage is more clinical and push/pull, and really I need to stay aware and work with the MT. So for me, massage doesn’t feel intimate and if it in fact did arouse me, I probably wouldn’t like it much because it would feel very awkward, neither relaxing (because sexual tension), nor good therapy (since distracted from the objective). 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Fauve Aeon

[Orwar]

   Hm, can't think of anywhere, it's not really my kind of 'thing' (although, I do have an ongoing project to build a spa for myself). But I think that the questions regarding "What qualifies as a woman in SL" is an interesting one.

   A female avatar? Well, would that be sufficient 'security' - or would it still make people uncomfortable if a female avatar with a known-to-be-male person (or possibly dog) controlling it; for example, Neph?

   If not, then would it just be an exclusion of those to be known to be men, or would you start voice-verifying people to make sure that all are what they claim to be?

   And, to say that 'men can be included under certain conditions' .. Well, that's not being inclusive, that's handing out a sentence before there's been a crime. Shouldn't the 'rules' be 'behave yourselves and be nice to each other', and apply equally to everyone? I could again begin to list some of the many, many occasions where I've been on the receiving end of sexual harassment from women, or witnessing other men being in that position, both in SL in RL.

   As far as SL goes, my personal opinion is that a person should be perceived as who they project themselves to be through their avatar, not by what's suspected to be behind the avatar. I'm not against the idea of having a "women only spa" or a "girl's night" or a "tea party for gentlemen"; but at some stage it must be decided who qualifies as what, and in that process there are going to be disagreements and probable cause for hurt feelings, if not outright transphobia, misandry, or gender/sexual discrimination.

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It's treading the fine line between being exclusionary, on the one hand, and producing discomfort on the other, that is the hard part.

   Very much this. But have you ever considered what discomfort it brings those men who never have, and never could/would, do anything particularly nasty to a woman, or any other person at all, when they keep being told that they're a potential threat, that they're perceived with suspicion and fear, and that they're basically animals who can't be expected to control themselves. I get the reason; some men have done absolutely terrible things - but so have some women. The majority of men, and the majority of women, have done nothing wrong.

   Maybe it's because I'm Scandinavian, but mixed gender sauna-bathing, which is not uncommonly done entirely nude and usually with nothing more than a towel, is neither weird nor sexually charged. And, sure, sometimes you want to do it just with the guys, and sometimes the girls want to do it by themselves; it's all good. If anything, it's become more difficult to do because people are now trying to pin reason to it, other than just 'wanting to hang out with the guys/girls'.

[Elora Lunasea]

2 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Most of those are using slave labor. People trafficked in and held there. And the thing about sex-slaves, also similar to prostitutes, is that over time they self-rationalize their situation as a survival tactic. If you're living in that situation, you need to re-craft your reality to avoid insanity. So you put on a smile, pretend this is normal, and your clients start to believe you like it... and often even after you get free - you will return to the life because... it's what you now know, and you feel too much shame to go home. You're a dog that's only known how to be beaten, so you just return for more abuse because it's become what you know as 'kindness' now...

- That then leads to a LOT of former victims defending the sex industry... they've normalized it, they no longer see the scared faces of the day one victims (I have, the first time I stumbled upon this in Asia, and it's something you don't forget), they see "the party life" of being in a bar with drinks and flirting all day long, and think that is good...
If you beat someone long enough, they begin to believe they deserve it - because to do otherwise means facing the horror on an inescapable situation... And eventually, they will even help you beat the next victim...
- So after a certain while, even the pimps can step back, as the long-term victims keep the others in line.

I get furious with people who go to some 'special massage' parlor and then tell me 'oh but she's not a victim, she enjoys this line of work'... because I've actually seen people across the stages of being broken in...

 

I enjoy all my XX and A in the context of SL... but that's a whole different thing from RL...

 

 

Yea, I know. Another layer of why I was SO angry. I wasn't pissed at them, I was pissed at HIM. 

I did a lot of research in the process of healing myself (along with therapy of course - it really messed me up for a bit). It's a horrible vicious cycle for those women (and men too) who get sucked into the industry. I also became involved in an online sex addict forum during that time - was a coach for quite a while there helping others move through their trauma which included those that found themselves in sex work. It was an eye opening experience and resulted in giving me empathy for their side of the story.

I also feel bad for anyone who is in any kind of industry that is under the table, low paying and illegal. And hate to say it but manicure places are notorious for taking advantage and preying off of the disadvantaged also. In RL, Too many shady businesses abound of this type in NYC particularly and I'm sure everywhere else. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Elora Lunasea

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Tarina Sewell said:

I just do not see the point if not rp...

By "RP," I meant something story-driven, with "characters" and IC and OOC.

Arguably, most of what we do in SL is RP in one way or another. What I'm imagining is something like what we do when we go dancing at a club. In the sense that we're not really dancing, but talking a bit as though we were, we are "RPing" then too, but we're also invariably free to get all "meta" about it.

1 hour ago, Fauve Aeon said:

My take on it is like a sort of SL ‘gals night out’ activity that isn’t clubbing/dancing or going for coffee/cafe sitting? I think it sounds fun.

edit: I can see the vibe changing if it’s co-ed, seems like it’s supposed to be about ‘gal talk’ which is inclusive because anyone in SL can literally ‘be a gal’ if they want. So all gals welcome? Maybe I’m mistaken. 

This was really pretty much the original idea.

[Fauve Aeon]

1 hour ago, Orwar said:

it's not really my kind of 'thing' 

This is the reaction most men in my life would have if I said ‘hen party’ or ‘girl’s night out’, 😝 
(They would run the other way, not wish to attend)

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Orwar said:

Hm, can't think of anywhere, it's not really my kind of 'thing' (although, I do have an ongoing project to build a spa for myself). But I think that the questions regarding "What qualifies as a woman in SL" is an interesting one.

   A female avatar? Well, would that be sufficient 'security' - or would it still make people uncomfortable if a female avatar with a known-to-be-male person (or possibly dog) controlling it; for example, Neph?

   If not, then would it just be an exclusion of those to be known to be men, or would you start voice-verifying people to make sure that all are what they claim to be?

   And, to say that 'men can be included under certain conditions' .. Well, that's not being inclusive, that's handing out a sentence before there's been a crime. Shouldn't the 'rules' be 'behave yourselves and be nice to each other', and apply equally to everyone? I could again begin to list some of the many, many occasions where I've been on the receiving end of sexual harassment from women, or witnessing other men being in that position, both in SL in RL.

   As far as SL goes, my personal opinion is that a person should be perceived as who they project themselves to be through their avatar, not by what's suspected to be behind the avatar. I'm not against the idea of having a "women only spa" or a "girl's night" or a "tea party for gentlemen"; but at some stage it must be decided who qualifies as what, and in that process there are going to be disagreements and probable cause for hurt feelings, if not outright transphobia, misandry, or gender/sexual discrimination.

This is all really over-complicating it. It is also taking rather too seriously the joke about men being permitted to join in.

This isn't an official or public thing: I didn't announce some kind of "event", but rather simply asked for suggestions as to places to go. In the final analysis, we don't actually need to decide "who qualifies as what," or a process for inclusion/exclusion, any more than I would were I calling up a group of women friends in RL to suggest a get-together. When you get together with friends, do you have hand-wringing exercises about who qualifies for inclusion? Do you draft process documents?

Personally, I'm entirely happy hanging out with men in SL, in any context. In fact, I do just that, a lot.

1 hour ago, Orwar said:

But have you ever considered what discomfort it brings those men who never have, and never could/would, do anything particularly nasty to a woman, or any other person at all, when they keep being told that they're a potential threat, that they're perceived with suspicion and fear, and that they're basically animals who can't be expected to control themselves. I get the reason; some men have done absolutely terrible things - but so have some women. The majority of men, and the majority of women, have done nothing wrong.

Has anyone implied anything even close to this????

1 hour ago, Orwar said:

And, sure, sometimes you want to do it just with the guys, and sometimes the girls want to do it by themselves; it's all good. If anything, it's become more difficult to do because people are now trying to pin reason to it, other than just 'wanting to hang out with the guys/girls'.

Yes. This. Both.

There's absolutely no reason why we can't do both a "girls' night out" and a mixed event. I'd enjoy both. But both would be at least subtly different because of the mix, I'm pretty sure.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Tolya Ugajin]

6 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Old-Irish-Monastery/279512

 

*GASP* it's not even mesh!

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

*GASP* it's not even mesh!

IKR?

I actually filtered for mesh at first, and all that came up were ruined monasteries!

Henry VIII has obviously been busy in SL.

[Tolya Ugajin]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

IKR?

I actually filtered for mesh at first, and all that came up were ruined monasteries!

Henry VIII has obviously been busy in SL.

Henry VIII - one of my role models 😛

[Orwar]

38 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It is also taking rather too seriously the joke about men being permitted to join in.

   Jokes about exclusion and prejudice are okay now again? Good to know.

41 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

When you get together with friends, do you have hand-wringing exercises about who qualifies for inclusion? Do you draft process documents?

   Well, no, but we've also always been very inclusive (or rather, not bothered to give a damn) and willing to give everyone at least a chance. You ever showed up to a gig with a skinhead and a drag queen in tow in the same company? I have, and it went just fine. Girls tagging along for stag nights because the groom is their friend? Never been any issue. Hen night with guys tagging along for the same reason? Again, no problems - perhaps I just don't hang out with girly enough girls or guyishly enough guys, that we need to be kept apart like third-graders?

44 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Has anyone implied anything even close to this????

   There have been several threads on these forums, where the focus has quickly gone to how bad men are, how "they only want one thing". I'm not specifically accusing you of having made any such suggestions, indeed I think that your involvement in those threads has generally been among the more reasonable perspectives - but yes, as a man being part of this community, where there's no shortage of misandry, you'll forgive me if, with that in mind, I don't find it 'funny' to joke about whether men should be included in social stuff.

   If all you had said was "we want to find a spa and hang out and get our nails done" (or, whatever), I don't think that it would have been any issue of any men tagging along making people uncomfortable, and I think that your response here (see below) was mature - but to pretend that there's been no implications? Please.

4 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

5 hours ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

This is a lovely idea, though I'm not sure about admitting men.  Perhaps there could be a few definitely women-only sessions?

Although I am generally uncomfortable about specifying exclusions (i.e., only women allowed), I think that this is something we can determine collectively (by whom?). I certainly understand the discomfort that might arise from a mixed sex outing of this sort (just as it might in RL), and it would certainly change the social dynamic, but I want to be careful, myself, about hard-and-fast rules that might, conceivably, exclude people who are non-binary (what about 'regular men'?) (as an instance).

However, this is something we can discuss as a group. And yes, a good solution might be have outings that are fully open, and ones that are women only? (I wonder if there are really many men who would want to do this, tbh?)

   Partial exclusion is still exclusion. I wasn't too 'hyped' about the idea to begin with, but I might have tagged along with Neph if only to be supportive of forumite social activities, but with that attitude, just, no. But by all means, knock yourselves out.