Wanted: In-World non-RP, non-Sexy Spa for Women (but Men Can Come Too If They Insist and Agree to Abide by Certain Important Rules)

[Scylla Rhiadra]

11 minutes ago, Orwar said:

Jokes about exclusion and prejudice are okay now again? Good to know.

I think that probably depends upon the joke, Orwar. Can you really imagine me getting seriously angered by a light-hearted joke about women and shopping?

And, it's important to note, the title doesn't exclude men at all: it explicitly includes them, albeit with a joke about "rules."

13 minutes ago, Orwar said:

what about 'regular men'?

I'm not sure that I really know what a "regular man" is?

Again, I think that this is unnecessarily complicating and politicizing what was never intended to be more than a get-together by friends, most of whom (because of the nature of the activity) I assumed would be women.

Now, if there is interest here in a more formal, forum-wide event along these lines, I'd be totally on-board, and even willing to help organize it. And something like that would absolutely have to be as open and inclusive as possible as, for example, Forum Cartel events, or the Sunday Breakfasts are.

But that's not what this is.

[KanryDrago]

37 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

 

I'm not sure that I really know what a "regular man" is?

 

I am a regular man...but then I eat plenty of fibre nods

[Tolya Ugajin]

54 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   A lot of good points

I also thought the sexist exclusionary language was inappropriate, but I've long since learned that leftists are quite fine with discriminating against whomever they see as "privileged" while decrying the exact same type of discrimination if directed against those they claim are "oppressed".  Ergo, excluding men because it makes women feel "uncomfortable" is "fighting the patriarchy" but a man avoiding socializing one on one with women because of fears of unfounded harassment complaints or rumours of office romances or their wives being uncomfortable with it, well that's pure evil oppression.

I've learned to just roll my eyes and ignore the hypocrisy.

[Orwar]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Can you really imagine me getting seriously angered by a light-hearted joke about women and shopping?

   I don't know, I never tried making such a joke around you. But, the second component of that joke is a very different thing; this isn't about observing something typical male or female behavior that is a bit silly or amusing - it's about saying 'your presence isn't desirable', with the implication of that 'your presence would make people uncomfortable, because as a man, you can't be trusted to behave around lightly dressed or undressed women'. It's more akin to making a joke about why women shouldn't drive.

   Let's use that as an example. What if the topic was 'Wanted: in-world non-RP location for Men's Vehicular Society (insistent women may join, if they understand road-signs, the right of way, and promise to stay on the road and off their phones)'. Would that still be okay? What about: 'Wanted: in-world non-RP location for a virtual golf club for men (insistent women may join, if they can at least occasionally hit the ball, and don't go hysterical and blame their clubs, shoes, skirt, spectators or some random bleeping bird whenever they slice, and threaten their fellow players with the golf clubs as a result)' - still okay? And who says where we draw the line?

33 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm not sure that I really know what a "regular man" is?

   As opposed to the non-binary people you mentioned, that would refer to the overwhelming majority of men who are indeed binary. Regular, as in 'the more common sort', as in, what most people first think of at the mention of 'men'.

37 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Again, I think that this is unnecessarily complicating and politicizing what was never intended to be more than a get-together by friends, most of whom (because of the nature of the activity) I assumed would be women.

Now, if there is interest here in a more formal, forum-wide event along these lines, I'd be totally on-board, and even willing to help organize it. And something like that would absolutely have to be as open and inclusive as possible as, for example, Forum Cartel events, or the Sunday Breakfasts are.

But that's not what this is.

   Again, I'm not opposed to the idea of something being specifically geared towards men or women, it's the tone in which it's presented I take issue with.

[Maryanne Solo]

< Pino-onsen > / Public Spa , Pino (208, 228, 40) Nuuuuuuuuuu! 😥

[Tolya Ugajin]

54 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think that probably depends upon the joke, Orwar. Can you really imagine me getting seriously angered by a light-hearted joke about women and shopping?

And, it's important to note, the title doesn't exclude men at all: it explicitly includes them, albeit with a joke about "rules."

I'm not sure that I really know what a "regular man" is?

Again, I think that this is unnecessarily complicating and politicizing what was never intended to be more than a get-together by friends, most of whom (because of the nature of the activity) I assumed would be women.

Now, if there is interest here in a more formal, forum-wide event along these lines, I'd be totally on-board, and even willing to help organize it. And something like that would absolutely have to be as open and inclusive as possible as, for example, Forum Cartel events, or the Sunday Breakfasts are.

But that's not what this is.

Scylla, the problem is that if you swap the genders in your title, it would be mercilessly attacked no matter how "light-hearted" a joke it was meant to be.  The sad fact is, one portion of the population becomes enraged over trivialities, yet self-righteously trivializes any push back they receive for doing the same thing.  (not that you are being self-righteous, as usual you're responses are thoughtful and measured, and I know you really were just joking around).

[Pussycat Catnap]

4 hours ago, Orwar said:

And, sure, sometimes you want to do it just with the guys, and sometimes the girls want to do it by themselves; it's all good. If anything, it's become more difficult to do because people are now trying to pin reason to it, other than just 'wanting to hang out with the guys/girls'.

Breaking up 'gender exclusive social groups' was or is a lot more important in the specific context of industries that have extreme gender bias and do most of their professional networking in those informal social groups.

Another way to combat that same problem is to attack the bias more directly, and move the professional networking into career-targeted social communities like tech is now doing with 'meetups'.

As in... if you can get people to actually prefer career networking in mixed and focused places, there's no need to intrude on the other spaces. In the era where we saw, in the USA at least, all the big lawsuits against men's clubs - it was because they were being used specifically to cut women out of career opportunities.

A rather stupid move - because they long-term sacrificed a 'place for the guys to hang out' on the alter of a short-term ability to exclude a few women from getting promotions... And now we have a multi-generational disdain for gender-exclusive social venues despite them playing such an important role in human psychology. But people who want to discriminate are often willing to sacrifice every other good in their lives in other to maintain the status of their bias, because they fail to see the long-term benefit of not discriminating.

SL...

frankly...

Is a perfectly good place for 'gender selective social groups' because 99% of us will not find a route to things like professional networking here, but a lot of us can benefit from social networking here.

 

[Selene Gregoire]

[Scylla Rhiadra]

41 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

Scylla, the problem is that if you swap the genders in your title, it would be mercilessly attacked no matter how "light-hearted" a joke it was meant to be.  The sad fact is, one portion of the population becomes enraged over trivialities, yet self-righteously trivializes any push back they receive for doing the same thing.  (not that you are being self-righteous, as usual you're responses are thoughtful and measured, and I know you really were just joking around).

Yeesh. And people accuse feminists of not having a sense of humour?

The appended part of my title -- that men are welcome to come if they want and "Agree to Abide by Certain Important Rules" -- is not exactly a hate message or a feminist clarion call to burn down the patriarchy, is it? It has all the ideological heft of a gentle nudge in the ribs. But this is what has sponsored the angst?

Increasingly, I've been trying to pick and choose my battles, in order to save my energies for important fights. Honestly, this isn't one of those. So, while I do appreciate your comment (and Orwar's similar one) that I am generally "thoughtful and measured," I'm going to bow out of this one.

Let's have a good knock-down-drag-out soon about something more interesting, ok?

[Tolya Ugajin]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yeesh. And people accuse feminists of not having a sense of humour?

The appended part of my title -- that men are welcome to come if they want and "Agree to Abide by Certain Important Rules" -- is not exactly a hate message or a feminist clarion call to burn down the patriarchy, is it? It has all the ideological heft of a gentle nudge in the ribs. But this is what has sponsored the angst?

Increasingly, I've been trying to pick and choose my battles, in order to save my energies for important fights. Honestly, this isn't one of those. So, while I do appreciate your comment (and Orwar's similar one) that I am generally "thoughtful and measured," I'm going to bow out of this one.

Let's have a good knock-down-drag-out soon about something more interesting, ok?

Awwww *hugs* you're my favorite feminist in the whole world.

As long as it's not about Trump - I did a resolution on not arguing over Trump this year.

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

56 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Is a perfectly good place for 'gender selective social groups' because 99% of us will not find a route to things like professional networking here, but a lot of us can benefit from social networking here.

I think that this is a nice point -- as was your comment about exclusionary social networks that do fulfill (or have in the past fulfilled) a function of advancing people professionally.

I don't particularly want an invite to the guy's Friday night Greedy game -- unless participation in that is an important means of advancement, and I'm missing out because I'm not invited.

I actually think that bonding by gender can provide valuable and important support for people -- so long as those participating (of whatever gender identity) aren't using them to propagate toxic attitudes towards the other gender(s).

Edited January 6, 2020 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

Awwww *hugs* you're my favorite feminist in the whole world.

As long as it's not about Trump - I did a resolution on not arguing over Trump this year.

 

You know, Tolya, I might almost like you

-- if you weren't a man. 😊

[Tolya Ugajin]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

You know, Tolya, I might almost like you

-- if you weren't a man. 😊

lol I already sprayed red wine on my laptop once tonight, don't make me do it again!

[LexxiXhan]

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I actually think that bonding by gender can provide valuable and important support for people

I'd expand that beyond gender to apply to any group of shared experience that we identify with. We're all complex, intersectional beings that benefit from seeing and feeling reflections of ourselves in others that overlap or connect with our experiences of the world.

[Tolya Ugajin]

16 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I don't particularly want an invite to the guy's Friday night AT THE STRIP CLUB-- unless participation in that is an important means of advancement, and I'm missing out because I'm not invited.

FIFY  I'll send you an invite for next week - we start at Hooters at 6:00, Darrell is the designated driver, since he doesn't drink.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, LexxiXhan said:

I'd expand that beyond gender to apply to any group of shared experience that we identify with. We're all complex, intersectional beings that benefit from seeing and feeling reflections of ourselves in others that overlap or connect with our experiences of the world.

Yes, absolutely. It's about shared experiences and perspectives -- and the advantage of engaging in multiple such communities is that it can provide multiple perspectives. I value hugely what other women have to offer me -- but I'd never want to restrict myself to only that perspective.

[Annie Nova]

Count me in! And if anyone is interested I have a little over 3000 prims on adult land and would be more then happy to share it and I have a hot tub and massage table. I think they are adult BUT can forgo the adult activities in them. I'd have to check to see how many the hot tub sits, just let me know if this sounds doable and anything that anyone else has to put out for something like this, let me know! Just a thought! 🙂

[Tolya Ugajin]

Along the lines of Anniepany's post, I've been thinking about hosting such a place for the Forum ladies since I saw the post.  For a variety of reasons, I would rather not.  But I do think it's a great idea, so...

If a small steering committee of Forum ladies wants to put together a plan for said spa, and someone will host it (personally I think a Bellissaria location would be awesome since so many of them like it there) I would be willing to underwrite building and furnishings up to 5,000L-ish. 

But, alas, I do not give manicures or pedicures.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Tolya Ugajin

[Garnet Psaltery]

2 hours ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

I also thought the sexist exclusionary language was inappropriate, but I've long since learned that leftists are quite fine with discriminating against whomever they see as "privileged" while decrying the exact same type of discrimination if directed against those they claim are "oppressed".  Ergo, excluding men because it makes women feel "uncomfortable" is "fighting the patriarchy" but a man avoiding socializing one on one with women because of fears of unfounded harassment complaints or rumours of office romances or their wives being uncomfortable with it, well that's pure evil oppression.

I've learned to just roll my eyes and ignore the hypocrisy.

If it helps, I can tell you the following.  I'm not a leftist.  I was a feminist, during the second wave, when it was common for women to receive a lesser wage for equal work (I began working for the government on that basis).  I don't feel a great deal of empathy with the third wave, and I'm not 'fighting the patriarchy' in any way.  I'd feel uncomfortable naked in the presence of men who have no professional or personal reason to see me thus, for the simple reason of modesty.  That's how I was brought up and I'm unlikely to change now.  As I said elsewhere in this topic I don't know what the RL gender-state is of an avatar but it's the appearance that matters here.  That's what has an effect upon me.

[Tolya Ugajin]

19 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

If it helps, I can tell you the following.  I'm not a leftist.  I was a feminist, during the second wave, when it was common for women to receive a lesser wage for equal work (I began working for the government on that basis).  I don't feel a great deal of empathy with the third wave, and I'm not 'fighting the patriarchy' in any way.  I'd feel uncomfortable naked in the presence of men who have no professional or personal reason to see me thus, for the simple reason of modesty.  That's how I was brought up and I'm unlikely to change now.  As I said elsewhere in this topic I don't know what the RL gender-state is of an avatar but it's the appearance that matters here.  That's what has an effect upon me.

I actually have zero issue with "women-only" clubs, as long as nobody harps on "men-only" clubs.  The sexes have socially self-segregated throughout history.  Speaking as a guy, I can tell you the entire dynamic of a social gathering completely changes once a woman enters the scene - if nothing else, because most of us start phallus flexing and chest thumping to impress the woman, and we stop telling dirty jokes, etc.  I assume it's the same way when a man intrudes on a social gathering of women.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Tolya Ugajin
because apparently the normal term for the male appendage offends LL sensibilities...

[Ivanova Shostakovich]

   @Scylla Rhiadra, @Eva Knoller Whenever and wherever this will happen, I'm in. Please let me know if there's any way in which I can help.

[Elora Lunasea]

6 hours ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

I actually have zero issue with "women-only" clubs, as long as nobody harps on "men-only" clubs.  The sexes have socially self-segregated throughout history.  Speaking as a guy, I can tell you the entire dynamic of a social gathering completely changes once a woman enters the scene - if nothing else, because most of us start phallus flexing and chest thumping to impress the woman, and we stop telling dirty jokes, etc.  I assume it's the same way when a man intrudes on a social gathering of women.

It is, we stop telling dirty jokes when the guys walk in too. Small world!

[Ren Toxx]

6 minutes ago, Elora Lunasea said:

It is, we stop telling dirty jokes when the guys walk in too. Small world!

Or, we start telling them, just to enjoy seeing them shuffling their feet uncomfortably, desperately trying to decide whether to join in, or to avoid it like the minefield that it is, with the famous quote: “it’s a trap!!” 😊

[Tolya Ugajin]

1 hour ago, Elora Lunasea said:

It is, we stop telling dirty jokes when the guys walk in too. Small world!

Lies.

Everyone knows, women don't tell dirty jokes.  Nor do they fart or burp.

[Garnet Psaltery]

28 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

Lies.

Everyone knows, women don't tell dirty jokes.  Nor do they fart or burp.

We furp.  It saves time, and it's less noisy.