MP fees raising to 10% per sale. Thoughts?

[Lexbot Sinister]

1 hour ago, Alyona Su said:

 Deal with it or quit.

 

 

Wonderful advice! (/sarc)

 

This is however exactly what merchants have been doing, and exactly what people will continue to do. The market of goods is starting to rapidly narrow down to very mainstream fashion and objects, since increased costs for conducting business pushes niche creators out.  That in turn generates less interest to stick around, since the culture of SL is becoming increasingly bland.

The whole idea of " don't like it, then quit, but don't whine" is making me sad, because that is exactly what is happening. People are quitting, we see it on the number of people logged in.  The fewer people that log in, the less  business opportunities for creators. So those quit too.

 

Me personally, i much prefer if people get very vocal about how these changes affect them, and don't quit. As long as they don't quit, then there is still opportunity for positive changes.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but those who quit, don't get replaced by new people coming to SL.

[Alyona Su]

21 minutes ago, Lexbot Sinister said:

The market of goods is starting to rapidly narrow down to very mainstream fashion and objects [...]

The term "main stream" is an ambiguous one. I disagree; the so-called main stream is the jumping into of mass competition. It is those who push the boundaries of design who are thriving most, precisely because they are different. As for niche, there is already plenty of that. The narrowing down of the marketplace is a good one. How many BDSM *-plugs does anyone need to choose from?

Though I have it, I don't wear the Maitreya mesh body. My chosen body, though highly popular in the beginning is losing support pretty quickly. Many people look at this the way you do: it's a "loss" for me. But I see it as a plus for me; now I don't have an over-saturation of stuff to choose from, but rather a leaner, more concise, easier to shop from selection. All the old stuff is still there and the major merchants still support Venus, so I'm not at all concerned about the loss of support for it from some merchants. Those that do still support it get my money and I throw a lot of that around, albeit to fewer recipients now.

I see what you describe as a "bursting of the bubble" and it's a needed thinning of cruft. Those who adapt and move on will reap the benefit of doing so. The others will not. So people take sit in the "I R Victim" seat or they can jump onto the faster-moving chariot. The choice is there and we, as customers, always will have great choices, only now those choices will be easier to sift through.

In all life, including SL, the fittest will survive. I'm not debating or arguing with you and I see your point. I am simply proffering a counter point, that's all. and, in both cases (yours and mine,) they are truthful in their own ways. 

[Lexbot Sinister]

2 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

 How many BDSM *-plugs does anyone need to choose from?

 

Since most of creators catering to that niche have quit or became inactive, the vanilla creators have taken over and started to fill in the gaps without any understanding of what this niche is about. There are a few left, that still make useful products, but they are quickly drowning among items without functionality.  At the adult sales events, you will find things like bondage beds, without any bondage poses or bondage functionality.  Toy racks, that don't give out any functional toys. Spanking horses, without a single spanking option, or even any bound pose. I can go on and on. At first glance, it looks like " This niche is catered to already" but that is as far from the truth as it could be.

So in my perspective, it hasn't been a survival of the fittest, it has been a survival of the blandest of the bland, diluting anything of interest, as the bigger businesses stretch over niches where they don't belong, with their lack of understanding what the niche is about. In my experience, this goes also for lot of steampunk and sci fi. The larger stores, with a team of mesh creators can make a mesh to specifications, and it will look good. But people outside if a niche don't understand what is actually needed, and what specifications a product needs. And then when their items don't sell, because they entirely missed the point by miles, they go back to selling..... mainstream decor and bland clothes.

 

So how many bdsm *-plugs does one need to choose from? Well, there are thousands..... but i haven't seen one with the actual animations and functionality of a *-plug since 2009.

[Alyona Su]

8 minutes ago, Lexbot Sinister said:

So how many bdsm *-plugs does one need to choose from? Well, there are thousands..... but i haven't seen one with the actual animations and functionality of a *-plug since 2009.

I've seen dozens. Though I beg no one judges me based on alleged previous shopping habits. LOL

[Kyrah Abattoir]

So yeah, what happened to primbay?

[Luna Bliss]

3 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

20 hours ago, Alexxis DeCuir said:

Thoughts on the mp fees doubling to 10% per sale?

Overdue and necessary. Of course people are going to cry about it, even though it's all pretend token money that doesn't exist and has zero real world monetary value whatsoever. These are surcharges for using the system; the cost of doing business. Deal with it or quit.

May I have a little bit of time to adjust to our new reality, feel upset or sad about it, or do I need to feel exactly as you do immediately?

[Alyona Su]

18 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

May I have a little bit of time to adjust to our new reality, feel upset or sad about it, or do I need to feel exactly as you do immediately?

Hahaha! You do as you wish to do. My perspective is my own, as are each from everyone else; we all are looking outside our own little world-bubbles that shape our ideas and opinion.  

I simply lean toward the realist view of things in life, even Second Life.

When I was little and learning to walk and fell backward onto my butt and cried, Dad would basically grab my shirt collar and yank me up again, later when I understood his words, he simply said (with similar scenarios) "Sit there and cry about it or pick yourself up and keep at it." I tend to take that angle with subjects like these.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Alyona Su

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Alyona Su said:

16 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

May I have a little bit of time to adjust to our new reality, feel upset or sad about it, or do I need to feel exactly as you do immediately?

Hahaha! You do as you wish to do. My perspective is my own, as are each from everyone else; we all are looking outside out own little world-bubbles that shape out ideas and opinion.  

I simply lean toward the realist view of things in life, even Second Life.

Emotions, and the need to have time to adjust to them, is also very "realist".

Your insistence of commanding others to feel as you do before they are ready is not "realist".

[Luna Bliss]

43 minutes ago, Lexbot Sinister said:

So in my perspective, it hasn't been a survival of the fittest, it has been a survival of the blandest of the bland, diluting anything of interest, as the bigger businesses stretch over niches where they don't belong, with their lack of understanding what the niche is about. In my experience, this goes also for lot of steampunk and sci fi. The larger stores, with a team of mesh creators can make a mesh to specifications, and it will look good. But people outside if a niche don't understand what is actually needed, and what specifications a product needs. And then when their items don't sell, because they entirely missed the point by miles, they go back to selling..... mainstream decor and bland clothes.

There's always a push to crowd out the freelancer. I experienced it first in SL when RL companies came flooding into SL during the boom times with dollar signs in their eyes, trying to hire me for what would have been cheap wages, and I'm convinced they would not have done as good of a job as I always did.

There's power in numbers - my advice is to join with others in your niche market and become a force to be reckoned with.

[Alyona Su]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

Emotions, and the need to have time to adjust to them, is also very "realist".

Your insistence of commanding others to feel as you do before they are ready is not "realist".

Emotions are what get people into tight jams, start wars, etc. There is emotion and there is logic. Each person must use whatever is best for them, Which is chosen will determine any outcome. If you read my words as "dictating" then you are inserting emotion into my words where there is none. I've not know you to do that, Luna. So you are either attempting debate or you've hidden this aspect very well up to now. I'll presume the former because, in my mind, you've always been in the group of more rational commentators.

[Alyona Su]

4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

There's power in numbers - my advice is to join with others in your niche market and become a force to be reckoned with.

THIS and precisely this. (Confirms my impression of your more-rational than many commentary) LOL

No matter what happens,, the market will correct itself. There is a bubble and this move by LL will pop that bubble, not very much, I suspect, but some. As is way more often than not, many react to news like this as though the sky is falling and proclaiming some kind of fear that it is a dire situation, when, in reality, these things often tend to turn out no more than a speed bump in the road.

A side-note, though still related as part of that LL announcement: I'm very happy to see them charge big L$ for Event listing. THAT is a cruft-laden bubble that needs a large pin jabbed through it.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Alyona Su

[Luna Bliss]

4 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

9 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Emotions, and the need to have time to adjust to them, is also very "realist".

Your insistence of commanding others to feel as you do before they are ready is not "realist".

Emotions are what get people into tight jams, start wars, etc. There is emotion and there is logic. Each person must use whatever is best for them, Which is chosen will determine any outcome. If you read my words as "dictating" then you are inserting emotion into my words where there is none. I've not know you to do that, Luna. So you are either attempting debate or you've hidden this aspect very well up to now. I'll presume the former because, in my mind, you've always been in the group of more rational commentators.

Emotion and logic coexists -- I do not have to choose one over the other. I can be sad or upset about the great possibility that I will earn less money while realizing at the same time the steps I may need to take to change my situation. I assume others have this level of maturity. What is not mature is to deny emotions exist, or to tell others to 'stop their emotions'.

"Deal with it or quit" is very abrasive -- there's no need to say this to people. You can have your own plan in how to deal with the changes but when you command others to be at your stage in the process this is over the line.

[Luna Bliss]

9 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

As is way more often than not, many react to news like this as though the sky is falling and proclaiming some kind of fear that it is a dire situation, when, in reality, these things often tend to turn out no more than a speed bump in the road.

Well we can't know what any change will mean for an individual merchant. Maybe for some it's the straw that breaks the camels back and it's not worth their time to create anymore. But for SL overall, yeah sure, most likely it will go on.

So far I haven't seen anyone acting like the sky is falling -- I've seen people express concerns and develop theories as to why this could be bad for SL overall. They might be right. We need to listen to everyone because it's possible they have valid knowledge, and we need to listen without shaming them for having feelings about it -- being too abrasive and shaming others can discourage them from speaking up.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

You can also just ignore "internet though guys".

[Luna Bliss]

24 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

Emotions are what get people into tight jams, start wars, etc. There is emotion and there is logic.

Have you ever witnessed very logical people, with apparently very high IQ's, skew everything their way in a debate, logically presenting a case so that it benefits themselves more than others.  Logic is not as great as some believe it is.

[Luna Bliss]

37 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

When I was little and learning to walk and fell backward onto my butt and cried, Dad would basically grab my shirt collar and yank me up again, later when I understood his words, he simply said (with similar scenarios) "Sit there and cry about it or pick yourself up and keep at it." I tend to take that angle with subjects like these.

Well, I would rather him have said "oh no, I know it hurts hon" and give you a hug, and THEN, once you expressed your pain, say "ok, it's time to move on".

When we don't affirm a child's feelings they tend to think their feelings are wrong. If we can't affirm our feelings then we can't know what we like or dislike -- it leads to very confused adults.   Feelings are really just a shortcut to telling us we either like or don't like something. I can't tell you the number of adults I've run into who really don't know, or can't affirm clearly, what they like or dislike -- instead they let others dictate this to them.

[Coffee Pancake]

3 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

20 hours ago, CoffeeDujour said:

THAT'S A TOTALLY DIFFERENT THING

How?

Apple / Google do not require customers to purchase play money and charge everyone for the privilege at every possible opportunity.

The vast majority of sales on app stores also include options for IAPs or other supplementary income sources (such as adverts). This makes up a substantial portion of total product income, even in apps that are not initially 'free'. There is almost no possibility for this in SL.

In SL we are essentially selling a single game asset for a couple of dollars and unless you're in the top 1% of creators, you're at best working break even for minimum wage. Appstores will sell an entire game with hundreds of assets for the same price, produced by a studio of professionals with significant income potential.

Appstores do not facilitate resale (legitimate or otherwise).

Appstores are not minuscule niche markets that are entirely dependent on keeping and attracting new hobbyist app creators in order to be sustainable. A flat tax  disproportionately affects the vast majority of smaller / low volume creators and does not confer proportional benefits from LL (exposure in marketing, builds, corporate level assistance / co-branding, or even staff accessibility).

Both Apple and Google's appstore's continue to show customer growth.

No one on any of the Appstores feels any emotional desire to help support said appstore, no one on an appstore feels 'in this together' with Apple or Google, neither of which impart a sense of fragility / hostility / disdain / ignorance for their own appstore, platform and customers.

No one targeting the Google or Apple appstore feels the need to euphemise about their chosen profession, describing themselves as 'virtual content' or 'digital asset' creators.

It's not possible to be accused of / say / do the wrong thing on either of those platforms and be immediately, permanently and irrevocably detached from your entire platform account, forfeiting any and all purchases, listings, virtual assets, remaining 'play money' and social connections.

No one makes an SL account or adopts the platform with the singular specific purpose of profiting from marketplace sales. No real world companies are being formed with the SL marketplace as a primary route to market. No bank or VC would or will ever fund an endeavour to create content for sale on the Second Life marketplace.

Any similarity is entirely superficial.

 

[Tari Landar]

I'm honestly not sure why anyone would come to the conclusion that a fee increase, in and of itself, is going to be problematic for most people (whether or not they like it is irrelevant, it's neither mutually inclusive or exclusive with being problematic).

I haven't talked with anyone that actually has a problem with the fee-very few commenters have even mentioned it, let alone took issue with it. Every single person I've talked to takes issue with the fact that MP is not functioning, at its base core, properly, and is getting worse, not better. Fees and increased costs are most definitely part of business, and I don't think any business owner, even a hobbyist, would not get that part, or not understand it.  The fee coming to fruition before necessary fixes, however, is very problematic, as the problem is only going to get worse, with or without the fee increases...so precisely who does that fee increase help? One would presume it helps LL, but even that wouldn't be correct when the court of public opinion (and in few cases is it actually important, but here..on this..it is) determines that LL, and by trickle down, the MP and merchants selling there, aren't worth the time and effort to figure out. The fee increase isn't going to help LL understand the problem they caused, or are causing.  The fee increase isn't going to magically fix the actual problem all by itself. The fee won't magically make any of the issues that people have with the MP at all go away, at all, lol. 

I absolutely think they should charge appropriate fees, and am surprised they haven't until now. But I don't think they should charge more while giving less, or sub-par products. That doesn't make a lick of business sense no matter how you slice it, lol. That's not a "suck it up buttercup", things change, kind of thing. That's like your ISP throttling  you intentionally so as it give you very poor service (while also telling you that you need to not only find the problem, but send them in a detailed help ticket so they can get back to you later and possibly correct it), while raising your rates to do it (not the greatest comparison, but..similar enough). Let's not pretend that LL doesn't make money off the MP, they don't run the MP out of the goodness of their hearts. They do it as a strategic business move...and good on them for it...but we should expect better.

The MP has already seen merchants leave, because this latest bout of issues got the response from LL of "find the problem that we caused (but didn't tell you about, so you won't know if it happened to you until you look for it), for us, send us one ticket for each and every item we removed erroneously, and we'll get back to you on possibly fixing it". I'm not sure what part of sections of stores and entire stores were removed recently..because of the word "leg" is difficult for people to understand...but that's a whole hell of a lot of tickets, lol. That's also a whole hell of a lot of responsibility put on the shoulders of merchants that isn't their's to bear (and if we're going to use comparisons to other services, it most definitely isn't in ANY other service even remotely similar to MP, lol)

Costs of doing business range from nothing to a whole hell of a lot. Not everyone is cut out for it, and I really don't understand the  "don't like it quit" mentality from people who A-don't seem to understand the real problem has little to do with fee increases themselves, but come from a functional point of view and B-aren't willing to admit that perhaps it is LL who has no damn business being in the MP business themselves, lol. MP doesn't, and won't, get better by kissing ass. 

[Kyrah Abattoir]

Sooo... what happened to primbay?

[Beth Macbain]

7 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

I, for one, have no issue, nay, am very willing to pay a little more (higher price) for the convenience of buying from Market Place than to suffer the crazy time and effort dealing with lag and hunting down the right product in world.

Be careful... when I said this six months ago or whenever that was, I'm pretty sure the merchants (all "3,000" that signed the change.org petition) took up a collection to put out a hit on me. 😝

[OptimoMaximo]

1 hour ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Sooo... what happened to primbay?

i heard the LL came in and somehow made them shut down. But i know it's just a rumor and i don't actually have any reliable information...anyone does?

[Alyona Su]

4 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

Be careful... when I said this six months ago or whenever that was, I'm pretty sure the merchants (all "3,000" that signed the change.org petition) took up a collection to put out a hit on me. 😝

LAFFS! I also am a very picky shopper, I go for quality over price. It's a very rare thing to get both: high-quality and low-price at the same time. I will more often than not buy the fat-pack even if I don't need it;  have actually purchased the more expensive (by double the price) of the exact same. vehicle just so I can have Modify permissions on it. As for paying more for a Market Place listing: I feel it's the "cost of convenience" - like how (around the parts where I live) a Pizza costs one thing, but if it is delivered there is the add of a few dollars more.

[Rya Nitely]

Remember, it's not just a 5% MP fee increase - it's also the increase in process credit fees from just $1 to 5%, PLUS the increase in selling L$ from 1% to 3.5%, PLUS the L$ exchange rate going from L247/US$ to L257/US$. Add it up and that's quite a significant chunk out of profits. All in a short period of time.

Anyone depending on the income may find it difficult. For people who don't depend on the income it isn't so hard.

Now the difference between a hobbyist and a business for profit - the business person would generally push themselves harder, because it's not all about having fun. They probably achieve more because of this.

And in my opinion, LL are highly dependent on those who are here to do business for profit - this is how LL survives. Keep reducing merchant profits and you reduce the incentive.

About raising prices - it's a sensitive thing. You need to look at your price rise and assess whether you are still being competitive or will people look elsewhere. You could lose customers. In saying that, I am going to raise my prices...reluctantly.

[Paul Hexem]

I said it in the other thread too.

I thoroughly enjoyed how they compared themselves to other digital stores.

Imagine if a sidewalk crack dealer compared himself to CBS Pharmacy.

"Yo, you're lucky I don't charge you their prices for my illegal, stolen, unregulated stuff!"

[Mollymews]

4 hours ago, Rya Nitely said:

About raising prices - it's a sensitive thing. You need to look at your price rise and assess whether you are still being competitive or will people look elsewhere. You could lose customers. In saying that, I am going to raise my prices...reluctantly.

in the last big discussion when cash out fees went up, all I could practically offer to merchants was that if L$ prices do go up as a consequnence then I am accepting of this

while I am not a wealthy person, I do have more discretionary income than I have had in the past. And since I have come back on SL my spending budget is quite a bit  more than it has been in the past. Perhaps relative to some other people my budget is quite small, but I can afford to buy quite a lot of new stuff each month like about 40-50 different things. If a price increase means 30-40 stuffs then is still quite a lot of new stuff and I am ok with this