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9 hours ago, Emanuelle Hultcrantz said:

They can return... aI was working on new cyberpunk outfits right this month, two armors are ready, I did a small shoot... I need Hangar, we all need it :) 

So... the ask is not to merely preserve the region as with Svarga et al., but to keep it operating as is?

... where I guess "as is" would mean with both the discount and the rentals... does anyone really think that's fair to folks who offer rentals without the benefit of discounted fees? Really?

8 hours ago, TDD123 said:

I do want LLto know that destroying these sims first before cleaning up mainlaind is not good for anyone involved in Second Life.

I don't think it's useful to link Mainland's challenges to this, nor really to anything else. As a business, Mainland is a delicate balancing act that improved substantially with the reduced tier and increased Premium "bonus" allotment -- and is now feeling pressure again from the new Linden Homes. In any case, though, "cleaning up" Mainland is never going to free up a bunch of resources to be given over to other uses. It's the same fallacy as looking at the cost of basic hosting and wondering why SL costs haven't fallen accordingly, or expecting vast savings by cutting hosting costs with idle sim detection and now migrating to the cloud: the cost of simply keeping those sims running is and always has been a tiny fraction of the cost of keeping Second Life a viable platform. Sure, it's good for the environment to shut down hosts when possible, and it might even slightly benefit LL's balance sheet, but none of it will free up a windfall of even greater profitability to subsidize this or any other noble cause.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

So... the ask is not to merely preserve the region as with Svarga et al., but to keep it operating as is?

By others .. not by me.

If all fails, I want it at least this sim preverved for our SL future ( only to see what was / is possible with high levels of quaulity. ).

I want the preservation for all of us, while SL is still around.

Edited by TDD123

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11 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

So... the ask is not to merely preserve the region as with Svarga et al., but to keep it operating as is?

... where I guess "as is" would mean with both the discount and the rentals... does anyone really think that's fair to folks who offer rentals without the benefit of discounted fees? Really?

I don't think it's useful to link Mainland's challenges to this, nor really to anything else. As a business, Mainland is a delicate balancing act that improved substantially with the reduced tier and increased Premium "bonus" allotment -- and is now feeling pressure again from the new Linden Homes. In any case, though, "cleaning up" Mainland is never going to free up a bunch of resources to be given over to other uses. It's the same fallacy as looking at the cost of basic hosting and wondering why SL costs haven't fallen accordingly, or expecting vast savings by cutting hosting costs with idle sim detection and now migrating to the cloud: the cost of simply keeping those sims running is and always has been a tiny fraction of the cost of keeping Second Life a viable platform. Sure, it's good for the environment to shut down hosts when possible, and it might even slightly benefit LL's balance sheet, but none of it will free up a windfall of even greater profitability to subsidize this or any other noble cause.

I would like to clarify that this thread is intended to help, support and save Hangars, not a thread where go off topic and give opinions whether you agree or not with our project. Of course, you're free to go off topic, but it does not help the cause, oh, wait...maybe it does by raising the number of comments, Lol. 

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1 minute ago, TDD123 said:

By others .. not by me.

If all fails, I want it at least this sim preverved for our SL future ( only to see what was / is possible with high levels of quaulity. ). I want it for all of us

I am sure that, if it is preserved, Djehan will continue to maintain it and update it, if LL let her do so. 

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1 minute ago, Lawrence Celestalis said:

I would like to clarify that this thread is intended to help, support and save Hangars, not a thread where go off topic and give opinions whether you agree or not with our project.

it's however in General Discussion, put it somehwere else, perhaps Events? you can hold a fundraiser. The support is still not getting more then oh and ah's .. and only ONE that said to donate a amount monthly.

So instead of the oh and ah's , pull your wallets all who want to keep it, it will be solved within a few hours.
If not.. let it go on in your memories, or take pics. It are only pixels now too.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I don't think it's useful to link Mainland's challenges to this, nor really to anything else. As a business, Mainland is a delicate balancing act that improved substantially with the reduced tier and increased Premium "bonus" allotment -- and is now feeling pressure again from the new Linden Homes. In any case, though, "cleaning up" Mainland is never going to free up a bunch of resources to be given over to other uses. It's the same fallacy as looking at the cost of basic hosting and wondering why SL costs haven't fallen accordingly, or expecting vast savings by cutting hosting costs with idle sim detection and now migrating to the cloud: the cost of simply keeping those sims running is and always has been a tiny fraction of the cost of keeping Second Life a viable platform. Sure, it's good for the environment to shut down hosts when possible, and it might even slightly benefit LL's balance sheet, but none of it will free up a windfall of even greater profitability to subsidize this or any other noble cause.

Now you, only, are talking money here. LL must caching. NOT making LL caching means ' off with the head' without consideration.

In case of this particuluar sim, I beg to differ that that should be the only matter involved.

Edited by TDD123
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5 minutes ago, Lawrence Celestalis said:

I would like to clarify that this thread is intended to help, support and save Hangars, not a thread where go off topic and give opinions whether you agree or not with our project. Of course, you're free to go off topic, but it does not help the cause, oh, wait...maybe it does by raising the number of comments, Lol. 

It's pretty unlikely any number of posts to this or any other thread is going to make much difference to any region's fate -- unless it drums up a bunch of private donors perhaps.

But to me it's not even clear what course of action is being proposed to "save Hangars" now. If it involves continued rentals on a fee-discounted region, I think it's more than appropriate to ask whether that's really what we want in Second Life.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

it's however in General Discussion, put it somehwere else, perhaps Events? you can hold a fundraiser. The support is still not getting more then oh and ah's .. and only ONE that said to donate a amount monthly.

So instead of the oh and ah's , pull your wallets all who want to keep it, it will be solved within a few hours.
If not.. let it go on in your memories, or take pics. It are only pixels now too.

This thread will stay where it is, and many are reaching out inworld to donate. Actually here two said that, and not one. Love and appreciation messages is not "ohs and ahs": to me what you and other off topic people are writing is the real "ohs" and "ahs".

Edited by Lawrence Celestalis
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2 minutes ago, TDD123 said:

Now you, only, are talking money here.

Then I completely misunderstood what you meant with "destroying these sims first before cleaning up mainlaind is not good for anyone involved in Second Life." If that's not about money, I'm missing the point. If it's about the aesthetics of Mainland compared to Hangars... yeah, no, I'm still missing the causal linkage.

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2 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

It's pretty unlikely any number of posts to this or any other thread is going to make much difference to any region's fate -- unless it drums up a bunch of private donors perhaps.

But to me it's not even clear what course of action is being proposed to "save Hangars" now. If it involves continued rentals on a fee-discounted region, I think it's more than appropriate to ask whether that's really what we want in Second Life.

If the number of off topic comments does not make a difference, well you know what they do, then. And I still think that, if you don't align with the topic, it's going nowhere. You may want to open a thread on philosophical/ethical matters regarding the future of Sl. I will happily join to debate how the lack of consideration for quality content considerably diminished the number of residents during the last nine years of Sl.

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9 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

 It are only pixels now too.

Pixels don't belong in the HD era. Pixels belong to the eighties with low-resolution. Dont equate my , or your, building attempts in here to all Hangars Liquides has to offer. 

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2 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

 If it's about the aesthetics of Mainland compared to Hangars... yeah, no, I'm still missing the causal linkage.

To me it IS like Svarga .. and Svarga is still here. Svarga was advertised once as the best SL had to offer.

This sim falls in that same category .. to me.

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1 minute ago, TDD123 said:

To me it IS like Svarga .. and Svarga is still here. Svarga was advertised once as the best SL had to offer.

This sim falls in that same category .. to me.

Okay, I'll just ignore the Mainland thing, then, unless it's important to a point I'm missing.

In the past I've thought it would be useful to have a rotating showcase of past sims. Not so much to save hosting costs (which really aren't the big expense, see below), but to maintain interest. There could be a cyberpunk destination that is sometimes INSILICO, sometimes Hangars, sometimes Suffugium (remember that one?), sometimes the Nexus Prime version of Gibson, etc.

The big costs, though, are maintenance (as I gather we know from Svarga): Who's going to fix the scripts when a server change reveals a dependency on old LSL bugs? Who's going to do the occasional script resets that somebody was doing for years without really thinking about it? Who's going to fix the alpha textures when they flip from Blended to Masked as if by evil magic? 

14 minutes ago, Lawrence Celestalis said:

... off topic comments ...

That is not how forums work. This thread is perilously close to lolcats already.

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27 minutes ago, Lawrence Celestalis said:

I am sure that, if it is preserved, Djehan will continue to maintain it and update it, if LL let her do so. 

That is not how preservation works in SL. If the current owner wants to continue to maintain it then I would dare say they do so without preservation and Linden Lab help. You cant have it both ways. What you are essentially asking is for Linden Lab to pay all tier and still allow the person to in essence run the sims/region. If this is what they are looking for then I would suggest either funding by donations in world, pateron or the like.

If Linden Lab did something like this it would set an unfair precedent whereby, any old 'pretty' sim could claim charity from Lab.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Okay, I'll just ignore the Mainland thing, then, unless it's important to a point I'm missing

Let me (re)phrase it in the context I suggested it.

Killing off sims like HL into oblivion before mainland is transformed in the form of Bellisaria, is to me not minding pulling the trigger to shoot yourself in the foot while the gun is pointed at your head.

That is the point I'm making with that.

P.S. The moles did quite a good job on mainland to somehow keep together what has been abandoned in droves. I'm not suggesting mainland should just be tossed away in favour of this sim.

Edited by TDD123

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5 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

That is not how preservation works in SL.

If Linden Lab did something like this it would set an unfair precedent whereby, any old 'pretty' sim could claim charity from Lab.

True .. and that I understand.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, TDD123 said:

Let me (re)phrase it in the context I suggested it.

Killing off sims like HL into oblivion before mainland is transformed in the form of Bellisaria, is to me not minding pulling the trigger to shoot yourself in the foot while the gun is pointed at your head.

That is the point I'm making with that.

Who is killing off sims? You cannot blame Linden Lab for the closing of a sim like HL. Sure having the rentals removed sucks, but it is up to the sim owner to know what can and cant happen TOS wise as well as find alternative revenue streams to support the sim.

As far as mainland and Bellisaria goes, both are entirely different beasts. Bellisaria is a Lab created area to support Premium members or new comers to SL. Mainland is entirely user created. Sure Lab were stupid to let the land abandoning get so out of hand that they can never catch up with land auctions, but suggesting mainland needs to go to support 1 individual's creation is arrogant to say the least.

Edited by Drayke Newall
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1 minute ago, Drayke Newall said:

 You cannot blame Linden Lab for the closing of a sim like HL.

I can and I will.

2 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

...  suggesting mainland needs to go to support the creation of 1 individual's creation is arrogant to say the least.

I never stated such thing. Mainland is not good promotion to SL. This sim is ; otherwise LL would not have used it RL as an impression how SL is IN GENERAL to the main audience.

Should that audience be interested (again ) in SL in large(r) numbers, I doubt one could say : " Well, what we showed isn't there any longer, but look at all the mainland we kept.

That is just, sorry to say to all that want this sim to cough up and just shut up, plain .. let' s say this mildly as I can ... silly.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, TDD123 said:

I can and I will.

To each their own, you have your opinion others have theirs.

Quote

I never stated such thing. Mainland is not good promotion to SL. This sim is ; otherwise LL would not have used it RL as an impression how SL is IN GENERAL to the main audience.

Should that audience be interested (again ) in SL in large(r) numbers, I doubt one could say : " Well, what we showed isn't there any longer, but look at all the mainland we kept.

That is just, sorry to say to all that want this sim to cough up and just shut up, plain .. let' s say this mildly as I can ... silly.

There have been plenty of other sims or regions that have been used to promote Second Life that have long gone. What makes this sim any more special than those?

As far as your mainland comment goes, was good promotion previously. However one could also argue that it was the creation of private regions that destroyed Mainland. You blame Labs for mainland being like it is, whereby Linden Lab have always said "Your world, Your imagination" they don't do the building in SL they provide the service for the residents to do the building. If you think it is so ugly do something about it, buy land there and start transforming it yourself. Though I know what the response will be … oh but its so ugly. I have to have neighbours etc.

Why doesn't the owner of this sim transfer it all over to mainland and start a trend in making the area good again and the place to be. Certainly would be cheaper for the owner to run the place on mainland than on a private region. Group land discount, cheaper tier etc.

Edited by Drayke Newall

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Posted (edited)

What TDD123 is pointing out is what really matters. Artists just want to create beauty for others to enjoy, and if they are allowed to do that, they will, and this will attracts residents. If you don't, they will leave and residents will diminish.This has happened on Sl since 2010. I run an Instagram account with tenths of thousand followers and on Instagram it is happening the same: contents creators see their likes and visibility diminished, because the company thinks they should pay for visibility. I argue content creators are the reason people stay on Instagram. By killing off good content, they are shooting in their own foot. That's why Djehan Kidd and Hangars Liquides, and the other good artists/content creators in Sl (if there still are any left) should be granted the chance of doing their job: creating beauty for others to enjoy. And I mean in a sustainable way, and this will largely benefit LL and Sl.

Edited by Lawrence Celestalis

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Look, sit down folks and take a step back. It is one thing to be passionate about a given thing or idea and quite another being presented here ...

It is indeed a lovely place - one I need to return to and poke around in some more - but what is being said here by some of those wishing for it to remain simply gives a very bad image.

What Linden Lab is/is not doing with Mainland or their new Linden Homes project is irrelevant to the financial (and other) issues that this cluster of private islands is apparently going through. Like it or not, that is how it is on that.

Nor are some of the reactions/responses that mention what other users have supposedly done (copybotting, forced teleports (which are impossible without Linden level God power or an active RLV relay or having accepted an Experience) and all other 'issues' brought up) as well as calls to attempt to control the direction this thread takes/attempts to control discourse: This is a public forum and from the moment you started the thread, you lost any control you imagined you may have had. You can suggest all you'd like that users "stay on topic" but you have no actual control over that.

I'll close this with the same thing I said at the start: Calm down and take a step back. A few of the posts I've just read were not helping your cause at all.

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7 minutes ago, TDD123 said:

Mainland is not good promotion to SL.

Neither are sandboxes. That's not their purpose. (There are, however, ways in which Mainland is good promotion for SL, despite its many challenges. And again, it's a balancing act as a business, and there's simply no tradeoff between it and anything else. Look at all the sandboxes we kept -- what?)

Also, Mainland may not be your idea of current best practices in virtual world content creation, but I guarantee that Hangars won't be either, in five years, and at least Mainland gets some new content. That doesn't mean Hangars shouldn't be preserved somehow, but that's the thing about historical artifacts: They get old and look funny after a while.

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9 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

To each their own, you have your opinion others have theirs.

There have been plenty of other sims or regions that have been used to promote Second Life that have long gone. What makes this sim any more special than those?

As far as your mainland comment goes, was good promotion previously. However one could also argue that it was the creation of private regions that destroyed Mainland. You blame Labs for mainland being like it is, whereby Linden Lab have always said "Your world, Your imagination" they don't do the building in SL they provide the service for the residents to do the building. If you think it is so ugly do something about it, buy land there and start transforming it yourself. Though I know what the response will be … oh but its so ugly. I have to have neighbours etc.

Why doesn't the owner of this sim transfer it all over to mainland and start a trend in making the area good again and the place to be. Certainly would be cheaper for the owner to run the place on mainland than on a private region. Group land discount, cheaper tier etc.

I fear that, in the lack of sustainable conditions, this artist will go to Samsar, where the support for artists is granted. Should there be another Instagram, all good content owners frustrated with likes and engagement artificially truncated only to make them pay, they will all flock somewhere else. And mainland is LL problem, not artists'. If LL wants to have beautiful mainland, they can pay good builders to beautify it, and people will go back. As you know, also in real estate, bad neighbourhood diminish the value of your land, while good one raises it. So you are arguing ugly builds are not LL problem and lack of content isn't too, when actually, in the end it hits them in the wallet. 

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4 minutes ago, Lawrence Celestalis said:

What TDD123 is pointing out is what really matters. Artists just want to create beauty for others to enjoy, and if they are allowed to do that, they will, and this will attracts residents. If you don't, they will leave and residents will diminish.This has happened on Sl since 2010. I run an Instagram account with tenths of thousand followers and on Instagram it is happening the same: contents creators see their likes and visibility diminished, because the company thinks they should pay for visibility. I argue content creators are the reason people stay on Instagram. By killing off good content, they are shooting in their own foot. That's why Djehan Kidd and Hangars Liquides, and the other good artists/content creators in Sl (if there still are any left) should be granted the chance of doing their job: creating beauty for others to enjoy. And I mean in a sustainable way, and this will largely benefit LL and Sl.

Oh, I understand, been there done that, but no one is stopping creators creating things in sl. Labs needs to make a profit just like any other company. It is also why they are trying to break the reliance of their profits on tier, hence all the premium changes etc. But until they can do that it is what it is.

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