Re: Gacha Missing and EMPTY BOXES....

[Rowan Amore]

17 minutes ago, Finite said:

SL Gacha is not gambling. Gambling you put money in and you either win or get nothing and the odds overall are so that across a group of people there's more loss than wins. Hence why it's a profitable business. People just win what other's have loss.

SL Gacha you put money in and you get an item. It doesn't have to be a rare. Sometimes we aren't even trying to get the rare. There could be another piece that we desire. But we get something and that something has value which is equity. You don't get equity from gambling unless you win.

It's a gumball machine. Not a slot machine.

Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value on an event with an uncertain outcome, with the primary intent of winning money or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements to be present: consideration (an amount wagered), risk (chance), and a prize.

if you're just looking at it technically.   The risk being, you don't get what you want.  With gumball machines, you always get a gumball and aside from color, they are all the same.  The point of most gatchas is you may or may not get what you want thus playing until you do.  If it's not gambling, why don't they just sell the items outright?  Because of the risk, the high you get winning.

[Finite]

8 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

With gumball machines, you always get a gumball and aside from color, they are all the same. 

You're correct they aren't gumballs. Gacha's are actually better than gumballs since I can't imagine you being able to sell the color you didn't want to someone who did want that color.

Also, I would rather them not sell them straight up since I 99% of the time spend less on a gacha set than I would on a fatpack sold outright. And I might not even want the full outfit of a fatpack. Gacha's let me roll on getting a specific piece. It's not always the rare that I am shooting for.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Finite

[FairreLilette]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value on an event with an uncertain outcome, with the primary intent of winning money or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements to be present: consideration (an amount wagered), risk (chance), and a prize.

if you're just looking at it technically.   The risk being, you don't get what you want.  With gumball machines, you always get a gumball and aside from color, they are all the same.  The point of most gatchas is you may or may not get what you want thus playing until you do.  If it's not gambling, why don't they just sell the items outright?  Because of the risk, the high you get winning.

Some are selling the full set copy/mod items in Gachas now.  If anyone would like to buy any copy/mod sets, the inworld group All Things Gacha may know who has copy/mod Gacha sets.  It's fairly new but on average I've seen a copy/mod Gacha set going for about 5-6 thousand lindens for the whole thing.  Also, some have terminals for trade into a copy/mod item.  

Gachas are all different.  I said gumball machine because take a shoe for example.  With shoes they are all the same except color just like gumballs.  The rares may be the black or the brown.  Plus I said loot boxes seem more like trading cards, which after doing a bit of research, most are saying loot boxes are closer to trading cards than anything else.   And, America is not banning it's trading cards any time soon.  But, loot boxes...I'm still not exactly sure what they are but you buy a bunch of boxes with no idea what's in it is the best I can gather.  At least that's what it looks like to me in this video.  You just buy boxes with no idea what it could be.

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Drayke Newall]

5 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

None of what you say is relevant because LL abolished gambling not because other countries did, and did not create two separate versions of the game with these more restricted skill gaming areas.

I can't see any likelihood of any 2 games being made here at all -- the law is in the US, LL conforms to it throughout. They created skilled gaming to accommodate some Asian, Arabic and yes, American players.

I know that hence why I said the only way for LL to work around it if gacha's are determined to be loot boxes (they will be) would be for LL to only allow them to be shown to people in the USA if the USA doesn't ban them, just like they do with skilled gaming.

I also never said two games should or would be made. I said that EA decided that was the best way and then they scraped it all together due to cost. I said that restricting gacha's will be problematic for LL so they would be banned instead.

5 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

There is no "legislation".

There is no "law".

Typical American closed thinking that "American law" is all that matters. When you are a multi-national company, all countries law matters. Unless I just dreamt about the law that Australia just passed forcing google and facebook to pay for news articles; or forcing steam, ea etc to provide refunds or forcing apple to allow for non apple repairers repair apple products etc or; the CSIRO (Australian Government science agency) suing big tech for using wifi without paying them for the patents due to the CSIRO inventing wifi.

LL should consider itself lucky it is a small fish compared to those companies and someone in Australia hasn't told the ACCC that when you cancel your subscription you loose your land even if you still have subscription time left after cancelling. Such practice is illegal in Australia and if the ACCC was told by just one person who had that happened there would be an investigation. There is a reason why once ACCC is mentioned in such things, companies back down as, against the ACCC they always loose in some way.

The same would apply to any law passed in Australia regarding loot boxes or gacha's. If a company still allows them they would either be banned in Australia or sued. Given EU's regulators I would dare say they would be the same and LL would have to bow regardless of American Law or suffer major profit loss.

[FairreLilette]

32 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

if gacha's are determined to be loot boxes (they will be) 

I'm not so sure they are the same thing.  With loot boxes, you just buy boxes with no idea what's in it.  It's similar to trading cards in that trading cards are packaged and sealed and you cannot know what's in it until you pay for it and then once paid for you can then open your trading cards and see which cards you got.  But, with loot boxes, it seems you don't even know what you are buying unlike with trading cards you are buying trading cards you just don't know which ones as it's a surprise you are buying. 

See pic below...all you know is you are buying a box with something in it.  It's not like Gachas at all which disclose what you may get.  I don't think they are the same but only time will answer that.  

Edited March 5, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Prokofy Neva]

5 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

The following link might help. There is a point in the process where the bill is said to "die" (next to the last graphic in the following article), but this does not mean it can't be resurrected in the future:

https://www.in.gov/gov/files/BillintoLaw.pdf

I wouldn't expect anything different than what we're getting here from a band of literalists and code-as-lawyers.

It is dead. AND it has not been reintroduced. The notion that some day, it might be again, is only a hysterical hypothetical of the type Snowden and other extremists are famous for.

Any hypothetical has to be grounded in reality, in real politics. Those real politics now include:

o January 6

o Josh Hawley's imminent and long-term future

o Ed Markey's interests

o Maria Cantwell's past and present interests and capacities

o COVID-19 and vaccines

In other words, a political process involving real people in the real world. I don't see that any of you are in touch with that process so I won't bother trying to have a discussion with you about this. I don't see any evidence at all that any bill is in the works to stop gatchas in Second Life. For all the reasons discussed in this thread.

To claim that my insistence that a bill is dead when it is DEAD in our process of how-a-bill-becomes-a-law, which even some of you concede; to claim that my refusal to believe that hysterical 1/99 coding culture notions are what I need to plan my life around are about "American close-mindedness" is to simply flag yourself again as 0/1 binary thinkers about a complex process.

There's another objective reality here. There is NOT a law in another country on lootboxes. There might be. You might try to interpret some existing law against gambling as that. But you have not demonstrated any other law. LL or anybody else is concerned about a law here because they are based here. They aren't concerned about a law that doesn't exist anywhere. They can't care if tomorrow, Germany decides its existing code against gambling and online commerce applies to this because they aren't in Germany. 

They can partition their game off from Germany. But there isn't a law, it didn't happen, when it happens it's not clear how it will apply, etc.

Another important thing about international legal debates.

There are civil law systems and common law systems.

Laws with magisterial justice and laws with adversarial justice.

Systems with weak precedent and precedent-based systems.

That's important to understand why you judge how a law is interpreted. For example, a law on the books in the US from 1950 against Communism is no longer in effect because of jurisprudence, deliberation on actual cases. The Supreme Court rulings are the law of the land, not some technical search-string in a book.

Germany, while it has civil law and the magistrate decides on law, not based on precedent necessarily, will still operate in a climate with free press, multiple parties, strong business interests etc. and in the end, may not deliver this. Some other country might, and with no free press it will be easier to do. Etc. etc.

These things matter because many people want to substitute code and virtual worlds and virtual life for real life because they think Congress is "broken". It's not. If there isn't a legislative process on your beloved gatchas now, and nothing anywhere showing there will be in any workshop, seminar, fireside chat at a tech conference, op-ed piece -- then it's not there likely at all.

Some anonymous Internet person in SL is not going to be an authority because they decided to be anonymous. Your confidence that gatchas "will be" defined as lootboxes is completely misplaced. I've laid out how this is fallacious by showing how the bill is dead, and the factors that might come together for a re-introduction just don't exist -- neither the bill's author or his co-authors or Congress itself is what it was in 2020 not to mention 2019 because like software, reality updates. I don't care if you are the son of the US Trade Representative or Josh Hawley's secret love child with a Congressional internship unbenownst to all. You don't know. So don't pretend to know.

It's a deliberative and public process with many moving parts. You speak about this as if some lightning will come down from Zeus and strike you dead and no one will stop it. I trust LL to keep abreast of these factors because I don't have time to, and ultimately, it's their game, you know? I trust them to lobby business interests of their merchants along with their own business interests on this matter. I trust them to give their client base a heads-up if they see gatchas are going to be regulated out of existence. 

I'll take my cue from them and various legislative tracking sites and things like Tech Crunch conferences, not from you because you aren't willing to concede how things like this. You either don't know, or you imagine everything is decided like it is on an IRC channel or an Oz Linden office hour.

 

Not this.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[Dragon Mommy]

Small correction about Lootboxes: most of them do have an option to see what you might get as well as the chances of each item. That is a requirement in some countries and sort of a bare minimum ask of them to maintain fair play. 

To that end Gacha and Lootboxes differ in one key thing: a gacha creator does not need to disclose their chances of winning a rare. If anything changes first I bet it will be that. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Bitterthorn

[Prokofy Neva]

9 minutes ago, Bitterthorn said:

Small correction about Lootboxes: most of them do have an option to see what you might get as well as the chances of each item. That is a requirement in some countries and sort of a bare minimum ask of them to maintain fair play. 

To that end Gacha and Lootboxes differ in one key thing: a gacha creator does not need to disclose their chances of winning a rare. If anything changes first I bet it will be that. 

The better gatcha creators do tell you, and some tell you they use a certain machine's default, so you know it's 20% or whatever. Some are believed to set hellacious percentages -- no one ever wins the rares. Others are totally easy. But many people don't know what "random" means and "chance" and they think 20% means that after 100 plays, you should have the rares. The problem is that each pull is a new 20% situation which may or may not give you a rare.

I think it's helpful to move this discussion away from legislation and this hysteria about possible legislation or partitioning of SL which LL is likely never to do to another approach.

That is to build best practices.

You could put in the TOS a requirement that each machine has to reveal its percentages, and then if you saw 1% or 50% you would not play if you didn't like the odds.

This industry already introduced something to prevent the kinds of rage and massive losses that occur: fatpacks. So for $1500 or $2500 you can buy the whole set. That means trying to compare these to lootboxes of the other game sort is particularly crazy. Not a gamble if you can buy the whole thing? The gamble is only to pay less. That's like getting a coupon for Amazon if you answer a survey. Only 4 will be given out. That is not gambling, it's just a rewards system at the level the organizers can pay.

I don't expect that's as fun though as predicting draconian laws that will execute and smite your enemies to a crisp. It requires discussions within the industry, identifying who the stakeholders are and all that stuff that Harvard MBAs can do, not me. But Lindens is not likely to try to get self-regulation. They have rarely done that for anything. For one, it doesn't work.

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[Drayke Newall]

33 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I'm not so sure they are the same thing.  With loot boxes, you just buy boxes with no idea what's in it.  It's similar to trading cards in that trading cards are packaged and sealed and you cannot know what's in it until you pay for it and then once paid for you can then open your trading cards and see which cards you got.  

See pic below...all you know is you are buying a box with something in it.  It's not like Gachas at all which disclose what you may get.  I don't think they are the same but only time will answer that.  

No, you always know what you can get from a lootbox prior to opening you just don't know what item from that list you would get. It is exactly the same as gachas in second life. They also always have a major draw in that the rarer items look better just like gacha's in second life.

For example in overwatch (the lootbox in your image) you can get any skin that is in the game for purchase in their store or that has been in an event such as Halloween. Therefore if you want to know what you can get you visit their store find a nice skin (you can only get skins in overwatch from lootboxes) and that has a chance to drop in the lootbox.

The difference is that you can either wait and play the game to get that skin in an event in say 6 months or gamble with a lootbox for a chance to win that skin sooner. Alternatively, you either buy the skin for lets say 1500 virtual currency or you gamble 100 virtual currency to try and get a skin worth 1500. In other words low investment high risk gambling for a specific 'legendary' reward.

Every game is different so some only have items in the lootbox that are only obtainable in the lootbox but the possible items are always known before opening.

Compare this to a the lotto for instance. I pay $10 for a ticket but have the chance to win the legendary or rare jackpot or get a more common prize such as $1 reward. I know what I can get in my lotto ticket per division, I just don't know what I will actually get until my ticket is 'opened' or numbers drawn.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[Finite]

There's no fancy math put into Gacha in SL. If there's 20 items you have a 1 in 20 chance of getting the rare. Coded RNG never works out and usually requires some sort of forced PPM. Big games such as WoW are still trying to figure it out.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Finite

[Rowan Amore]

4 minutes ago, Finite said:

There's no fancy math put into Gacha in SL. If there's 20 items you have a 1 in 20 chance of getting the rare.

Most machines have a way to set the percentage on getting a rare.

[Finite]

4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Most machines have a way to set the percentage on getting a rare.

I'd like to see a reference for this information. Because my experience doesn't support it. Just seems like the typical misinformation that gets passed along on the forums.

Edit: I just found some gacha scripts on the MP that says you can set probabilities so I am incorrect.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Finite

[Rowan Amore]

Just now, Finite said:

I'd like to see a reference for this information. Because my experience doesn't support it.

Look on the MP for gatcha machines...this from one description

The Gatcha Machine comes with a script which can be used to give a random item upon paying a fixed price.
The name Gatcha is chosen intentionally (see "Gotcha!"), but it is just the same as Gacha 🙂

The notecard can be configured to select the rarety percentage and extra items of your choice given at all times.
The price is simply set in the description field of the machine itself.

[Drayke Newall]

3 minutes ago, Finite said:

I'd like to see a reference for this information. Because my experience doesn't support it.

Second Life Marketplace - MD Gacha Machine Script

"- Rares chance: you can set a custom extraction chance for rares, different for each rare category."

:EDIT:

Damn, you respond fast @Rowan Amore

Edited March 5, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[Finite]

Hehe yes I just saw those.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

10 minutes ago, Finite said:

There's no fancy math put into Gacha in SL. If there's 20 items you have a 1 in 20 chance of getting the rare. Coded RNG never works out and usually requires some sort of forced PPM. Big games such as WoW are still trying to figure it out.

As Rowan points out, this is not true -- and makes no sense. They are called "Rares" for a reason.

[Finite]

So I guess the issue is with trusting the vendors with being fair?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Finite said:

So I guess the issue is with trusting the vendors with being fair?

That's a big part of the issue. But only a part.

And define "fair" . . . ?

[Finite]

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

That's a big part of the issue. But only a part.

And define "fair" . . . ?

I guess that would be an opinion in regards to what is fair but if you never played one before I don't see how you can have such an opinion. For me I set a price on the rare. If I hit the rare before or at that point, I consider that fair. And that's before factoring in what I could recoup from selling the extras.

On average I spend less on gacha than I do on fatpacks. Far less.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Finite

[FairreLilette]

21 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

No, you always know what you can get from a lootbox prior to opening you just don't know what item from that list you would get. 

Does it give you a list prior to buying boxes or after?  

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Finite said:

I guess that would be an opinion in regards to what is fair but if you never played one before I don't see how you can have such an opinion. For me I set a price on the rare. If I hit the rare before or at that point, I consider that fair. And that's before factoring in what I could recoup from selling the extras.

Oh, I have played one. More than one, in fact.

That's an interesting take on the value of rare -- but the random element ensures that when I play it might well be SUPER fair, because I get the rare after the first or second pull, but super UNfair for you, because you pull and pull and pull, and never get one at all.

Out of curiosity, how often do you get the rare before you've hit the price you've set for it?

[Finite]

2 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Does it give you a list prior to buying boxes or after?  

There's a certain type of gacha that are loot boxes. But they aren't the ones in SL. You can reference it. SL is closer to Box Gacha which has zero relevance to any bans or anything in countries around the world. People read an article and see the word "gacha" and instantly assume it applies to SL gacha for some reason.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Finite

[RunawayBunny]

Just now, FairreLilette said:

Does it give you a list prior to buying boxes or after?  

They usually include full list of prizes but does not tell you percentage of getting rare items.

[RunawayBunny]

Example:

Ofc.. changes of getting rare ones less than %1 usually they can even make it %0 and turn players insane.

Edited March 5, 2021 by RunawayBunny
Better example

[Finite]

11 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Oh, I have played one. More than one, in fact.

That's an interesting take on the value of rare -- but the random element ensures that when I play it might well be SUPER fair, because I get the rare after the first or second pull, but super UNfair for you, because you pull and pull and pull, and never get one at all.

Out of curiosity, how often do you get the rare before you've hit the price you've set for it?

I played two today. One I got 2 rares from 30 tries at 50L ea. Second I got 1 rare from 30 tries at 75L each. But I completed the set both times as well. And for one of the items which is a clothing item I only kept the ones for my body and will be selling the ones for the other two bodies that it came with. So I'll be recouping most the the 75L one. The other one probably not much recoup since it was just a weird item that I wanted to have for a picture that I doubt will sell for much on the MP since it's very niche.

I've been very lucky a few times. Two times I hit GB rares on the first try. He had this rare set at kustom9 last year where I hit 3 rares in 5 tries while trying to get gloves. I think I was only ever very unlucky once and I probably shouldn't have tried this gacha since it had so many items in it. I forget which but it was at he pumpkin festival last fall.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Finite