Re: Gacha Missing and EMPTY BOXES....

[Drake1 Nightfire]

9 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

Am not.

Every Country With Laws Against Loot Boxes (& What The Rules Are) (screenrant.com)

Game studios would be banned from selling loot boxes to minors under new bill - The Verge

Text - S.1629 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): A bill to regulate certain pay-to-win microtransactions and sales of loot boxes in interactive digital entertainment products, and for other purposes. | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

How will the video game industry deal with loot box legislation? (businessinsider.com)

Loot Box Update - Lexology

The difference being you do not have to pay one single penny of real currency to play a gatcha in SL. You can work in SL, get paid by someone and play gatchas all day long, without ever having to enter credit card info. Therefor it is not anything other than virtual currency. Also, its in the TOS that L$ have no cash value. 

[Tari Landar]

17 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

Not to mention, the Dinkies and Tinies are the real beautiful people here.  

A big ego can exist even on the smallest of creature, and it's rarely becoming on anyone

(and this is what I meant about letting some balls just roll....lest you intend to make things worse or be perceived in a light you don't intend). 

[RunawayBunny]

22 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

The difference being you do not have to pay one single penny of real currency to play a gatcha in SL.

It is complicated I think and it probably requires lawyer's expertise. But long story short:

Online games gives you "virtual currency have no cash value" with small amount (10 virtual currency every week) but you can purchase large amount of "virtual currency have no cash value" try your luck for "rare with lootbox" which most likely performs better than other items or have unique and different design.

Based on this example SL gacha directly falling to same category online slot machine (aka lootbox / gacha) with "virtual currency have no cash value" and you will want to get "rare" from gacha which have more marketing value.. and overall better design or a key element in item set.

I don't understand how this is different from each other.. It is a glorified slot machine

Edited March 3, 2021 by RunawayBunny
Typos.

[FairreLilette]

20 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

A big ego can exist even on the smallest of creature, and it's rarely becoming on anyone

(and this is what I meant about letting some balls just roll....lest you intend to make things worse or be perceived in a light you don't intend). 

The Dinkies and Tinies aren't even people first of all, so it was a jab at Orwar's comment.   Are you Orwar?  If not, why do you need to speak for him?  I don't believe the Dinkies or Tinies, most of whom are like 3 year old child spirits have a big ego, plus it's about something else.  Some people never had a childhood and seeing them with a toy for the first time is truly a beautiful thing here in SL.  Dinkies and tinies, many not all, are about the innocent awe of it all when someone gives you an ice cream cone just because.  Not that adults don't need an ice cream cone just because, they do too.  But, ego is not really present in most Dinkies and tinies except for a few stately ones.  We have our Lord and Duchess Dinkies and tinies as well as our adult "Moms".  There are all kinds of people in the Dinkie and Tiny world.   Most 3 year olds are not all about pride, vanity and ego.  But, anyhow, I saw this after I came back to block someone and I'd like to head out of forum for awhile.  

[Rowan Amore]

Explains a lot.

[LittleMe Jewell]

[Silent Mistwalker]

16 minutes ago, RunawayBunny said:

It is complicated I think and it probably requires lawyer's expertise. But long story short:

Online games gives you "virtual currency have no cash value" with small amount (10 virtual currency every week) but you can purchase large amount of "virtual currency have no cash value" try your luck for "rare with lootbox" which most likely performs better than other items or have unique and different design.

Based on this example SL gacha directly falling to same category online slot machine (aka lootbox / gacha) with "virtual currency have no cash value" and you will want to get "rare" from gacha which have more marketing value.. and overall better design or a key element in item set.

I don't understand how this is different from each other.. It is a glorified slot machine

 

What makes the difference is, in most games you can't "convert" the tokens to US dollars. Ls can be converted to US dollars. You can "cash out" in SL. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money

Quote

• An otherwise non-valuable object that serves as a medium of exchange^[7] (also known as fiduciary money.)^[8]

This is what allows for Ls to be converted to USD. It's complicated. Ls are simply a means (fiat) of trading for what you want within SL and on the MP. You can't use USD inworld but you can on the MP. Gachas can be indirectly converted to USD so they tend to fall in a gray area that new laws may or may not address (but most likely will).

Most games (that I know of) don't set up the ingame economies in such a way as to allow game tokens to be converted to cash. It's a major PITA to deal with legally and financially. 

[Finite]

10 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

Am not.

Every Country With Laws Against Loot Boxes (& What The Rules Are) (screenrant.com)

Game studios would be banned from selling loot boxes to minors under new bill - The Verge

Text - S.1629 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): A bill to regulate certain pay-to-win microtransactions and sales of loot boxes in interactive digital entertainment products, and for other purposes. | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

How will the video game industry deal with loot box legislation? (businessinsider.com)

Loot Box Update - Lexology

Any state, country or regulation would have a very difficult time of relating gacha to loot boxes as they are defined.  Gacha relates more to a gum ball machine than to a loot box. You put a quarter into the machine, you may not get the color you wanted, but you still got a gum ball.

[Paul Hexem]

58 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

The difference being you do not have to pay one single penny of real currency to play a gatcha in SL. You can work in SL, get paid by someone and play gatchas all day long, without ever having to enter credit card info. Therefor it is not anything other than virtual currency. Also, its in the TOS that L$ have no cash value. 

The TOS can say that cows are purple and have wings, that doesn't make it true.

L$ have a cash value of 240 / 1 USD.

Which is why so many residents have to fill out tax paperwork.

 

1 minute ago, Finite said:

Any state, country or regulation would have a very difficult time of relating gacha to loot boxes as they are defined.  Gacha relates more to a gum ball machine than to a loot box. You put a quarter into the machine, you may not get the color you wanted, but you still got a gum ball.

Which is why those laws are being proposed to redefine them, yes.

Edited March 3, 2021 by Paul Hexem

[Finite]

7 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

The TOS can say that cows are purple and have wings, that doesn't make it true.

L$ have a cash value of 240 / 1 USD.

Which is why so many residents have to fill out tax paperwork.

 

Which is why those laws are being proposed to redefine them, yes.

Any laws like that would get stiff resistance in the US where SL is located since it would cast a very wide net. Even on previously said gum ball machines lol. Even carnival games would fall under such a wide umbrella. So I doubt much if anything will come of it in relation to Gacha's in Secondlife.

Gacha and Pay-to-Win aren't even in the same ballpark. They're not even in the same universe.

Edited March 3, 2021 by Finite

[RunawayBunny]

1 minute ago, Finite said:

So I doubt much if anything will come of it in relation to Gacha's in Secondlife.

They will probably fix it same way they fix skill gaming.. Mark gacha zones as "gacha / lootbox zone" for affected countries.

Example if skill gaming forbidden in your country you will probably never able to enter skill gaming zone.

Same example can be applied for gacha if its forbidden in your country you cannot enter or use it.

[Paul Hexem]

1 minute ago, Finite said:

Any laws like that would get stiff resistance in the US where SL is located since it would cast a very wide net. Even on previously said gum ball machines lol. Even carnival games would fall under such a wide umbrella. So I doubt much if anything will come of it in relation to Gacha's in Secondlife.

In my life, I've seen a whole lot of really, really stupid laws and rules go unhindered. The FAA just passed a rule that all drones are required to use a technology that doesn't (yet) exist, for example. In Massachusetts, if you paint a certain model gun black, it becomes illegal. There's countless examples of state and federal laws like that.

If these laws get any serious traction, they'll be touted as attempts to stop these big gaming corporations from preying on kids. I can't see it getting a whole lot of resistance, except for from said big corporations, all things considered.

[Finite]

5 minutes ago, Finite said:

Any laws like that would get stiff resistance in the US where SL is located since it would cast a very wide net. Even on previously said gum ball machines lol. Even carnival games would fall under such a wide umbrella. So I doubt much if anything will come of it in relation to Gacha's in Secondlife.

 

1 minute ago, RunawayBunny said:

They will probably fix it same way they fix skill gaming.. Mark gacha zones as "gacha / lootbox zone" for affected countries.

Example if skill gaming forbidden in your country you will probably never able to enter skill gaming zone.

Same example can be applied for gacha if its forbidden in your country you cannot enter or use it.

That would be true if gacha was somehow tied to gambling or skilled gaming. That's a very hard knot to tie together. If gacha is gambling then gum ball machines and carnival games would have to be considered gambling too.

[Solar Legion]

Until they start taxing L$ directly and not your USD balance, L$ have a value of .... exactly nothing whatsoever outside of Second Life.

As far as the Gatcha part of this goes? I've made my views known across several related threads in the past.

[Tari Landar]

32 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

The Dinkies and Tinies aren't even people first of all, so it was a jab at Orwar's comment.   Are you Orwar?  If not, why do you need to speak for him?  I don't believe the Dinkies or Tinies, most of whom are like 3 year old child spirits have a big ego, plus it's about something else.  Some people never had a childhood and seeing them with a toy for the first time is truly a beautiful thing here in SL.  Dinkies and tinies, many not all, are about the innocent awe of it all when someone gives you an ice cream cone just because.  Not that adults don't need an ice cream cone just because, they do too.  But, ego is not really present in most Dinkies and tinies except for a few stately ones.  We have our Lord and Duchess Dinkies and tinies as well as our adult "Moms".  There are all kinds of people in the Dinkie and Tiny world.   Most 3 year olds are not all about pride, vanity and ego.  But, anyhow, I saw this after I came back to block someone and I'd like to head out of forum for awhile.  

Please stop being, well, whatever this rant was. 

I speak for no one but myself, unless specifically stated so. 

I know what a dinkie is, I know what a tiny is. I don't need to be told constantly, no one does, most of us truly are well aware, as evidenced by numerous threads in which they're mentioned. You seem to have this thought process that none of us could possibly know what they are or what you're talking about. I spend half my time in sl as a hamster...ftr.

 I also know that anyone, that is the person behind the avatar, regardless of the type of avatar they choose to have inworld, can have a very large ego at times (whether they realize it or not). I also know that such egos are rarely becoming on anyone, and attempts to gently point this out are about as successful as trying to nail prepared jello to a tree now, apparently. It was an attempt, albeit it a failed one

I don't know if maybe you're not realizing the irony or hypocrisy in your posts or if maybe you're having a bad day because you're not feeling well and things aren't really coming out the way you think they are. But, hopefully your day gets better and you realize the shenanigans in all of these broad brushstrokes and paint flinging going on. 

 

[Silent Mistwalker]

3 minutes ago, RunawayBunny said:

They will probably fix it same way they fix skill gaming.. Mark gacha zones as "gacha / lootbox zone" for affected countries.

Example if skill gaming forbidden in your country you will probably never able to enter skill gaming zone.

Same example can be applied for gacha if its forbidden in your country you cannot enter or use it.

Which will mean gachas can't be sold on the MP.  

For those who are not aware there have been those who have been working on legislature that will place gaches and things like gachas in with loot boxes for quite some time now. I haven't been keeping up with it. I just know people are trying to change the laws in the US about it.

[Rowan Amore]

researchers from New Zealand and Australia, writing in Nature Human Behaviour, concluded that "loot boxes are psychologically akin to gambling

[Paul Hexem]

2 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Until they start taxing L$ directly and not your USD balance, L$ have a value of .... exactly nothing whatsoever outside of Second Life.

The IRS disagrees.
Linden Lab Official:Required Tax Documentation FAQ - Second Life Wiki

Quote

 

Why do I need to submit tax-related documentation to Linden Lab?

The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) requires Linden Lab to collect and retain tax forms from users who reach certain L$ sale transaction volumes and/or amounts.

 

 

[RunawayBunny]

7 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

researchers from New Zealand and Australia, writing in Nature Human Behaviour

It is I fall victim to it.. not in SL gacha but in another game I was obsessed with item and spend more than 1k USD in 1 night for angel wings.

It was exciting and stressful also withdrawal sadness was greatly depressing (not sure how to put it in English.)

I have been warned by my BF chance of getting this item low than %0.2 because loot box contains so many unwanted items and he (happily) forced me to stop.

This is why I strongly oppose lootbox idea.. I am as adult vulnerable to it I can't even imagine children.

Edited March 3, 2021 by RunawayBunny
Typos

[Solar Legion]

15 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

The IRS disagrees.
Linden Lab Official:Required Tax Documentation FAQ - Second Life Wiki

 

No, they don't.

That very document says nothing whatsoever concerning an actual L$ value that triggers the requirement. It in fact states 

Quote

For U.S. residents with 200 or more L$ sale transactions with a total amount of gross proceeds in excess of $20,000 in a calendar year, we are required to file a Form 1099-K with the IRS reporting those transactions for that year.

In other words: The L$ balance is not what is being taxed. At all.

In world/MP transactions are done in L$ - even when you choose to use a linked card/PayPal account directly (the USD amount is converted into L$ and that resulting balance is used).

This is what they are talking about when referencing L$ sales values.

So no, the IRS doesn't care about your unconverted tokens - tokens which you cannot actually use anywhere (that matters) in the Real World.

Now, if you'd like to continue to contest it - find an actual Tax Attorney and get their opinion on the matter.

ETA: Yes, I am rather serious on that as the only users that I have seen mention having had to file with the IRS were "cashing out" - using the Lindex system to convert their tokens into USD to be moved elsewhere.

Edited March 3, 2021 by Solar Legion

[Finite]

So just doing a little research I found that the type of gacha that's being considered for regulation isn't even the same type of gacha in secondlife.

The focal point is toward the gacha's that are required to progress in a game (AKA Pay to win). Usually played by children.

Secondlife nor SL gacha's are either of those. Secondlife Gacha align closer to box gacha than the type that's being considered for regulation.

Literally took me 5 minutes to find this stuff. Where are you guys getting your information? lol

[Solar Legion]

1 minute ago, Finite said:

So just doing a little research I found that the type of gacha that's being considered for regulation isn't even the same type of gacha in secondlife.

The focal point is toward the gacha's that are required to progress in a game (AKA Pay to win). Usually played by children.

Secondlife nor SL gacha's are either of those. Secondlife Gacha align closer to box gacha than the type that's being considered for regulation.

Literally took me 5 minutes to find this stuff. Where are you guys getting your information? lol

Likely the same place they get their information regarding the monetary value of the L$.

[RunawayBunny]

2 minutes ago, Finite said:

The focal point is toward the gacha's that are required to progress in a game (AKA Pay to win).

I believe you are mentioning games you play in carnivals? Shot duck to earn plush toy.. or hit punch box to max for reward etc.

I believe its fair comparison.. only difference you don't have to play particular game to get this toy you can get those toys with regular price from toy shop. Rewards mostly common plush toys.

I think SL gacha can be fair if they add direct purchase for increased L$ price for single unit in their main shop if we use carnival logic.

[Rowan Amore]

Whether they are legal or not, I honestly don't care one way or the other, but they can and do cause an addiction for some people.  With that said, SL in and of itself is just as much of an addiction to some people.  A lot of things fall into that category.  You really can't police everyone's behavior.

[Finite]

14 minutes ago, RunawayBunny said:

I think SL gacha can be fair if they add direct purchase for increased L$ price for single unit in their main shop if we use carnival logic.

Some do. Check out Black Ness. Has a fatpack of the entire set for around 2500L I believe. I generally spend far less than that just playing the game to complete a set. 

Also, you do not NEED anything in an SL gacha (or SL in general) to progress in any way, shape or form. You may WANT it but there's a big difference (literally and legally) between needing and wanting something.

And people who play gacha to complete a set spend far less than people do on fatpacks (really 3k? for a 3piece with only a color changer and low resolution textures w/o materials? and I have a problem?)

Edited March 3, 2021 by Finite