Re: Gacha Missing and EMPTY BOXES....

[Rowan Amore]

https://www.gamepressure.com/newsroom/capcom-rejects-gacha-mechanics-and-lootboxes-in-its-games/z92c40

[JanuarySwan]

@Drayke Newall, I didn't want to re-read through the thread at this time but you stated reselling items constitutes gambling.  Re-selling an item does not constitute gambling in the United States.  However, IF IT is re-selling items that one may get randomly that helps others to advance in a game - that's cheating and fraud, not gambling.  This is what I wanted to say, and then Rowan posts the link above and there is this quote from the link which sounds along the lines I am thinking...that's it's cheating and fraud, not gambling.  I got to thinking this yesterday.  Why play a game if someone is paying to win or paying to progress, it defeats the purpose of the game.  Furthermore, if someone can purchase items that allow one to win or advance, that is outside the realms of fair play.  

Capcom believes that the enjoyment in games should come from the gameplay, not the thrill of successfully drawing a virtual item or card. The company also doesn't want this form of entertainment to lead to financial problems and further distress for its users caused by excessive costs of play.

Edited March 6, 2021 by JanuarySwan

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 hours ago, Finite said:

Using your logic and  comprehension of the text a gumball machine is gambling. You think that refers to SL gacha. I disagree. Leave it at that.

Technically, in the US, it can be considered gambling. Gumball machines didn't always deliver the gumball. Regardless of the reason for the failure, you were still taking a chance you wouldn't get any thing by putting your money into the machine and turning the crank.

Money isn't the only thing people gamble with.

[Finite]

24 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

It doesn't matter. That one line is what defines it as a box gacha. If SL's gacha doesn't have the same mechanism it isn't box gacha. The mechanisms that SL gacha have are IDENTICAL to loot boxes. I have provided the report that defines them as such so you can accept that or not. I don't care anymore.

Additionally, it doesn't matter as box gacha and all those gacha's in that wiki article still rely on chance. Only difference is that your chance either increases or you get to reroll. In my example you have a 1 in 1000 chance of getting 'x' item. You are getting hung up on things that don't matter. What matters is exactly what that EU report shows and I don't know why you cant see that, that is:

If you pay with real cash to play a game of chance that gives a reward (and in Netherlands that reward can be sold for RL cash) it is defined as gambling no matter what form of gacha, loot box etc it takes. That is what the EU report, Netherland law as well as Belgium and others state.

It isn't my interpretation, nor is it just me saying that. It is clearly defined in black and white in that EU report I linked of which they also provide at the end of the document all the sources to back it up.

I know how SL gacha works thank you very much, I was talking about complete gacha mechanisms. Anyway, it doesn't matter. It is still a game of chance you pay for and get a prize at the end that has monetary value or not depending on which country you are.

Repeating over and over the same thing trying to refute what I posted when none of your points have refuted it, doesn't change that fact.

You're not bringing up anything to refute what I have posted so I will take that as you have no source or evidence to the contrary of what I have posted so wont be responding anymore to your posts until you do. Its late where I am anyway so i'm off.

I get it but my response was to your reference of complete gacha being banned in Japan. At which I shared the definition of complete gacha which isn’t what SL is. Not every form of gacha is banned in Japan. Nor is every gacha being considered for legislation. That’s been my point just about this whole thread while conceding that there are forms of gacha that are loot boxes and that are gambling. I just disagree that SL gacha is either. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Finite

[Rowan Amore]

8 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

. The company also doesn't want this form of entertainment to lead to financial problems and further distress for its users caused by excessive costs of play.

That IS what concerns people about gambling.  Gambling causes financial problems for many people.  It's an addiction.  They try and try to either get the rare or all items available.  

People with a gambling addiction find no joy in purchasing those items on the MP.  The rush comes with playing the gatcha.  That's where the problem arises.  If it were as simple as has been stated by others, "just buy it second hand", then that person doesn't have a gambling problem.  For those others, it's an obsession.

[RunawayBunny]

22 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

Re-selling an item does not constitute gambling in the United States.

How this is different than each other?

Play skill gaming with L$100 and try to win.

Play gacha with L$100 and try to get rare and sell it at marketplace You can further push your luck and try to complete full set with all rares for better L$ gain or loss.. depending your luck.

Edit: I guess this subject not going to rest, I intended to let it go but people seems interested on topic.

Edited March 6, 2021 by RunawayBunny

[JanuarySwan]

23 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

That IS what concerns people about gambling.  Gambling causes financial problems for many people.  It's an addiction.  They try and try to either get the rare or all items available.  

I don't know for sure that quote is talking about gambling.  But, in games where one is supposed to complete a fair quest while others are buying items and also re-selling items so others can further themselves (progress quicker by purchasing) before items are even released is not the same as SL Gacha.  There is no game here.  What some of these games have is cheating and it defeats the whole purpose of the "game" in the first place.  So, some of these people are addicted to winning at all costs as well as, like I said, there is no more fair play nor any reason to have a game - the game has become all about money.  It's become a buy to win with no quest nor game existing any more in some of these "games" where they sell these loot boxes.

The U.S. would have to ban real life arcades before they'd consider SL Gacha.  SL Gacha is Gashapons, you get a common prize or one of the rarer ones inside.  

Edited March 6, 2021 by JanuarySwan

[FairreLilette]

1 hour ago, JanuarySwan said:

so others can further themselves (progress quicker by purchasing) before items are even released 

I see what these loot boxes are now.  One is gambling on getting good items in the loot boxes before they are released so they can progress or win the game and/or resell for a quick buck so someone else can progress further in the game.   That's a money scheme and no longer a "game".  

Edited March 6, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Prokofy Neva]

6 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Probably because as I said in my first post in this thread, Linden Lab and second life are a small fish compared to the others, and for the fact they probably are completely unaware of what SL entails or what it has. This would also be the same reason why Guild Wars isn't mentioned in the rulings despite having loot boxes. ArenaNet took the proactive approach by not allowing the loot boxes in Belgium.

By the way I dont play overwatch, I am using that as the example as they were the first to introduce loot boxes into games and it was bought up in this thread by another poster.

As to your 'expert' comment refer to my response to Prokofy below.

And you keep on missing the point that it means diddley squat. You have never provided sources arguing your points so I will provide legal ones to refute ALL your arguments.

No where does it say that they were banned because the items cannot be resold within the Belgium, Japan, China etc laws. That is to say it isn't even a factor they consider. All they consider is that, if you are playing a chance game with cash it is gambling.

On the contrary, in October 2020 (last year) Netherlands amended their ruling made previously with the amended October SGR 20/3038 and SGR 20/3905 rulings stating within 7.1 that it is specifically because items obtained from a loot box can be resold for real money makes loot boxes illegal, defined as gambling more so than regular loot boxes that items cannot be sold for.

The Eu has made a report in July 2020 (Loot boxes in online games and their effect on consumers, in particular young consumers (europa.eu) ) on how they are treating it and while like usual they are slow at legislation it is being looked at. In regards to your argument, the below is taken directly from the EU findings report (section 2.2.4) clearly refuting your argument.

I wont post the table they include in the report (see link above) but the E-E category represents where the item is paid for by real money (including virtual money linked to real money - the Linden Dollar) and can be traded or sold for real cash.

Further to that the document clearly states the following in regards to whether loot box's are gacha's:

Also refer to section 4.2.3 in that report where it defines the 3 criteria that a loot box needs to have to be defined as gambling. The last criteria when related to the table in 2.2.4 and the E-E category or I-E category that SL gacha's fall into is according to the report 100% gambling - LEGALY defined under member state gambling laws.

The EU report is from July 2020 and therefore recent enough to show that this is still being discussed in governments. Maybe not the USA but everywhere else. Whilst it isnt law in all countries of the EU, many member states are starting to make it so outside of the EU Commision. Also the children aspect means nothing as gambling laws dictate that to legally carry out a gambling game such as a loot box or gacha, that company needs a gambling license of which tech companies cannot obtain.

So there is my evidence and sources arguing that gacha's and loot boxes are defined as gambling, not to mention now illegal in the Netherlands, Belgium and other countries irrespective of whether it is a normal bound to account item loot box or one that its items can be sold for real cash.

I wait with baited breath (that was sarcasm by the way) at your sources refuting the above documentation. I'm sure you will provide some random response, but I highly doubt you can refute court rulings in the Netherlands, Belgium and the EU Commission itself showing that any loot box/gacha is gambling.

I think it's great that you can provide lengthy answers to my pertinent point without answering it, and not answer other questions, like:

How many people does your company employ?

I think you've been challenged by others to explain why, in countries that banned the overwatch kind of stuff, SL didn't get banned. You haven't done so. Perhaps they have lawyers, and you aren't one? I don't know, it's the Internet, where it isn't that no one knows you are a dog, it's that they do know you are a dog, metaphorically speaking.

If Belgium, Japan (Japan?! really?), and China have banned things that you think gatchas are as well, it's not even a question of "why isn't it enforced" because of your claim that SL is a "small pond," the question is why legions of Japanese designers in SL at numerous high-profile events make and sell gatchas fearlessly, without any participation in this thread or anything like it. Perhaps they know something you don't know?

What I've had to conclude here is that you are not a lawyer or executive of a major company, perhaps a rival of Linden Lab, who is gloating over your knowledge to harass your competitor's customers, and you are not even a small-time operator who wishes to warn his fellow merchants in a virtual world with civic good will. But that you are "just a guy" for whom harassing and heckling people on the forums *is* the game.

[JanuarySwan]

1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

I see what these loot boxes are now.  One is gambling on getting good items in the loot boxes before they are released so they can progress or win the game and/or resell for a quick buck so someone else can progress further in the game.   That's a money scheme and no longer a "game".  

Yes, one can gamble on getting "good stuff" to sell as well, such as a "get rich quick scheme" for real money.  Getting rich quick is highly addictive to some people but it also has aspects of under-handedness.  It does take away the aspects of the game because black or gray market paying to progress or paying to win eliminates equal advantage.  

Edited March 6, 2021 by JanuarySwan

[Prokofy Neva]

3 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

https://www.gamepressure.com/newsroom/capcom-rejects-gacha-mechanics-and-lootboxes-in-its-games/z92c40

So from this link, we determine that a game company has made a policy. It's a policy based on morality, not law, and its invocation of "laws in lots of places" isn't correct because there aren't laws in "lots" of countries, just some, and we can't be sure how they've arrived at any kind of valid conclusions that their new moral policy is based on existing law or putative future law not introduced.

Private companies on the Internet get to make moral policies. I'm all for them doing that. They should do more of that, in fact, now that large Internet companies are all we have to set moral standards, since nobody goes to church or temple any more. Morality is a good thing to set as policy before a yahoo sets it for you as law. I'm not a libertarian, I'm a Catholic. And it's fine if this or that company wants to have some rough assemblage of rules that are like "Thou shalt not steal" or "Capture roleplay harms the human person."

But...Lots of game companies make policies that aren't the same as SL, which isn't a game. Game companies very commonly forbid adult or sexual behaviour and also forbid selling any kind of scripts or modifications to their game, and forbids selling the rares in their game play. People sell them any way on ebay, but then they risk getting banned. I would say 9/10ths of the things that go on inside Second Life are illegal in other games/worlds/platforms. Instagram has no TOS that protects your copyright and may even ban you for trying to sell your photos via Instagram although some people manage. Facebook may allow terrorists to post videos of their victims in real time, but they do pull them after enough abuse reports. 

SL permits adult activity, welcomes scripts and other modifications to their world, and encourages resell of items made for the world. If Linden Lab ever remotely considered banning the very items that make up a large percentage of their world's economy, they would only do so in compliance with an actual law in the real world and after their lawyers have determined  the law applied to them or, if their lawyers didn't -- they're in California, after all -- credit card companies told them that they would no longer permit charges from their platform.

This last bit is really important as it represents a very high threshold AND what LL actually faced in its real history when it tolerated certain activity on their platform. We're not there yet on any front here at all -- and what's more important, I personally would want to take advice or interpretation on these matters from a) Lindens, ideally or b) any SL company that is actually large, viable, and with RL counterparts or RL known information.

LL can't say, "we want people to enjoy their game play and not gamble" without closing shop, and not because of gambling but because they're not a game.

Capcom sells actual games, that is, a thing you play with rules and mechanics to reach certain levels or gain certain "experience" or get various types of loot. So it can natter on about enjoyment of gameplay -- something Linden Lab doesn't offer or attempt to define. If you pressed Linden Lab to stop claiming they "aren't a game" and got them to try to answer the question of what "gameplay" is on their site truthfully, they might say "Shopping" or "Photography" and finally "the Forums," the favourite game of all for a tiny minority of people. They actually won't say "adult activity" because while some people enjoy the drama and excitement of this theme, and mourn the loss of their anonymous partners with real tears, "Shopping" and "Photography" are activities they simply spend way more time on.

That doesn't mean there aren't games on LL's platform. There range from sword RP games inworld to historical recreations that have no prize or even free gifts, up to an including Capture Roleplay which I find morally reprehensible. There are many things called "fishing" which are more about socializing than the little tokens you might win to enable you then to build a thing; or things called "gatcha" which you play to collect a set, often paying more than the fatback cost, and then resell, usually at less than what you paid. US law forbids gambling, and LL enforces this and provides a legal skill gaming niche in their world. They've never commented on gatchas at all, good or bad, as a game or not, as gambling or not, although surely they know they make up X percent of their economy from server records

With Drayke, who appears, from the information he has provided, to be a merchant in SL and possibly a sole proprietor in RL, I have concluded that he isn't an authority on this topic. I can't tell anything about you except that you like "Photography". And I don't need to know if you are a lawyer for a major corporation who is a rival to SL and is gloating, or the owner of a small business who is filled with good will toward your fellow small business owners on SL and is warning them of impending disaster. Because your behavior indicates that for you, "Forums" *is* the game, and Fisking online texts and heckling skeptics *is* the game, on this and just about any other topic.

So along with waiting to see if Insurrection inciter Josh Hawley is indicted or, without his partner across the aisle in stamping out children's losses in online war games, to see if Ed Markey, known for campaigning for LGBTQ rights, who has been in Congress for decades and is now 74, will retire.

Since I can't keep my eye on Congress for long, for things not really related to my field, I'll wait until Linden's lawyers speak up on this, which is not likely.

Finally, my last comment on this matter, as people suspect others of the same ill intentions they themselves have: I have no dog in this hunt. If LL decides to pre-emptively ban gatcha machines, this does not affect me in reality or virtuality. I once made a gatcha machine of my creations, and in an entire year, only one guy played it, twice. I buy cheap furnishings for my rentals by going to weekend sales and playing gatcha games. I have never re-sold gatchas for the same price as I purchased them, so I warn people not to expect this. I have a "Gatcha Addiction Treatment Center" which shows you where I stand on the moral scale, which is that gatchas are like alcohol or drugs of Lotto cards, for some people they trigger addiction and lifelong misery. Other people indulge in them recreationally and suffer no harm. It's hard for me to take seriously that gatcha can represent an actual harm to real budgets in the real world, because the most I've ever spent trying to get one is US $50. I view my rare spending of US $50 in SL on one thing, which is a lot for me, several days of groceries, as like buying a sculpture in real life. Yes, I realize that others may have spent hundreds or even thousands on these items, and for them it is harmful. I think everybody has to plan to spend no more than the fatpack price (usually about US $8.00) when they step up to a gatcha machine.

So I try to provide information about how to play less harmfully, how to play with "moderation maintenance" or how to quit cold turkey, along the way trying to demonstrate the harms of gatcha with fires of hell, ice of winter, volcanos, and so on. The metaphor for my "center" on Tofalar, an actual nearly extinct indigenous people in Siberia first nearly destroyed by the Bolsheviks, now endangered by the oligarchs. Their ancient ones taught the children never to kill off the reindeer. The reindeer are needed mainly for transportation by this nomadic people, and for milk and clothing; occasionally, they will be hunted and serve as food but their food source is diversified among fish, nuts and grasses and such as well. Now only about 1,000 of them are left.

What I don't do, as I don't do with abortion, which for me is sin and in my state is permitted by law, is confuse my moral standards or warnings on this matter with law. There is no law.

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[Rowan Amore]

🙄

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Rowan Amore
Whatever

[Drayke Newall]

12 hours ago, JanuarySwan said:

@Drayke Newall, I didn't want to re-read through the thread at this time but you stated reselling items constitutes gambling.  Re-selling an item does not constitute gambling in the United States.

I didn't say that it was the case in USA. I said it was the case in some countries OUTSIDE of the USA as referenced in the EU commissions report. That said the EU Commissions report also takes into consideration Belgium's law (keep in mind Belgium is where the head of the EU is) which doesn't require selling to be defined as gambling. Belgium law simply states if you pay to play a game of chance that results in a prize either of monetary value or not, it is gambling.

USA is irrelevant to the discussion as no matter what happens, even if the USA do not pass legislation, because second life is exposed and used in other countries Linden Lab may need to take steps to stop gacha's in those countries that have those laws. How they would do this remains unclear but there are only two options, close sims off to those countries that have gacha's on them or ban gacha's.

 Just because LL is a US company does not mean they do not need to comply with other countries laws.

12 hours ago, Finite said:

I get it but my response was to your reference of complete gacha being banned in Japan. At which I shared the definition of complete gacha which isn’t what SL is. Not every form of gacha is banned in Japan. Nor is every gacha being considered for legislation. That’s been my point just about this whole thread while conceding that there are forms of gacha that are loot boxes and that are gambling. I just disagree that SL gacha is either. 

I didn't say every gacha was banned. I said complete gacha was and that was in reference to you mentioning about 'completing a set' in second life.  I also said that SL gacha isn't like complete gacha. It isn't like any of the gacha that wiki page you linked.

You can call it a gacha and get hung up on a name, but it doesn't change the fact that it operates exactly like a loot box as defined in the EU commissions report as well as the Netherlands and Belgium laws. The fact that you can then sell the prize as mentioned in the EU commissions report, according to them has higher grounds for SL Gacha to be likened to gambling.

Once again I am not the one saying that the report is. Read it.

9 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I think it's great that you can provide lengthy answers to my pertinent point without answering it, and not answer other questions, like:

How many people does your company employ?

What on earth does that have to do with Gacha's and gambling. It has nothing to do with the discussion so why should I post it. My personal life means nothing to the discussion.

What matters is that you haven't provided any source that counteracts the EU Commissions report or other countries laws stating it is gambling. I would have a guess that the reason you haven't is because you cant.

Quote

I think you've been challenged by others to explain why, in countries that banned the overwatch kind of stuff, SL didn't get banned. You haven't done so.

I already answered this. Why didn't the law specifically reference ArenaNet and their game Guild Wars 2. It didn't mention it nor didn't specifically ban it. Though, ArenaNet in seeing their loot box didn't comply made it unavailable in countries that have it banned.

No law or legislation is going to list every company that is at fault. They are going to state what is and isn't banned and then the onus is on each company that has those mechanics to take steps to meet the law.

Quote

Perhaps they know something you don't know?

It is not I that think that at all. READ THE F******* REPORT. It is GOVERNMENTS that have defined what gachas and loot boxes are.

"You ask why legions of Japanese designers in sl sell gacha's fearlessly". To every other person I would say their common sense (you however clearly don't have as such) would tell them this is the case because they CAN. LL haven't banned them. That however doesn't mean that gacha's aren't defined in that report as loot boxes or gambling.

Geez, any two year old should be able to put two and two together and realise they sell them in SL cause LL haven't banned them yet.

Quote

What I've had to conclude here is that you are not a lawyer or executive of a major company, perhaps a rival of Linden Lab,

Never claimed to be such. Considering I have just referenced both the Netherlands and Belgium laws as well as the EU Commissions findings that back up what I have said, I don't need to be a lawyer or any person. It is written in black and white. The onus is on you to prove my sources wrong of which you haven't come close. For an analogy on how close you have come to proving my sources wrong it is equivalent to me being on Earth and you are on Pluto.

Your issue is that you cant grasp that laws and legislation are being passed that clearly define a gacha as a loot box as gambling because you are closed minded only thinking who I am matters when evidence has been provided to you specifically refuting your claims.

8 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Finally, my last comment on this matter,

Why do I have the feeling you don't mean this. Don't get me wrong, I truly hope I am wrong and it was your last pointless, irrelevant and useless comment in this thread, but something tells me it wont be.

As for me however I have said all that needs to be said on the matter. So no more posts from me on the subject. Legislation is being passed in the EU in many countries that ban loot boxes (and yes gacha's in SL). I'm not saying that the evidence provided does. If you don't read the evidence and sources provided because you believe only US Congress law matters well then good for you. Just proves what many in the world already think, some Americans live in a bubble of their own with no clue about the world other than America.

I hope @Orwar wont mind me quoting him as he put it so eloquently in his last response on this thread to people like you Prokofy.

15 hours ago, Orwar said:

I have better things to do with my time than to argue with people with inclinations of such a juvenile rhetoric, so I'll slip back into the backseat; content with the knowledge that the legislative sphere will move along without any hindrance from the likes of yourself. 

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[JanuarySwan]

1 hour ago, Drayke Newall said:

Belgium law simply states if you pay to play a game of chance that results in a prize either of monetary value or not, it is gambling.

It doesn't say that exactly as it further goes on to say "random contents" which is gambling on the contents to be "hot" in the first place in order to re-sell them or gain an advantage in the game.  But, I'm tired and going to bed.  

But the Belgium Gaming Commission has disagreed, instead focusing on whether the loot boxes constitute a "game of chance" - the use of a game element which involves a bet that can by chance lead to profit or loss.

It cited a series of issues with how loot boxes function, such as the use of virtual currency which can be purchased for real money, and the way that some loot boxes make players think they will gain an advantage despite their random contents.

 

Loot Boxes and Gashapon, Gashapon is not mentioned to be under any scurtiny while loot boxes are and also loot boxes are said in the Wiki to have mechanisms like gashapons.  

 

More from the article:

• Players can unlock special characters, equipment and vehicles in some games using loot boxes, which can be bought using real money.
• As loot boxes are random, people could spend £10 and get something useful, or spend £100 and get nothing useful at all - similar to how slot machines work.
• They have become ubiquitous with many mainstream video games, and have appeared in titles including Call of Duty, PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds and Rocket League.

As loot boxes are random, people could spend £10 and get something useful, or spend £100 and get nothing useful at all - similar to how slot machines work.

They have become ubiquitous with many mainstream video games, and have appeared in titles including Call of Duty, PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds and Rocket League.

The Belgium Gaming Commission investigated four games: Fifa 18, Overwatch, Counter-Strike: Global Offensive and Star Wars Battlefront II.

Only Battlefront II was found not to be in violation of the law - after developer EA temporarily halted micro-transactions completely following negative feedback.

This criticism focused around a post by EA on community news site Reddit, which became the most downvoted in the site's history, when the company appeared to call micro-transactions a way to "provide players with a sense of pride and accomplishment for unlocking different heroes".

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43906306

Edited March 7, 2021 by JanuarySwan

[Drayke Newall]

1 hour ago, JanuarySwan said:

It doesn't say that exactly as it further goes on....

Sigh, I said I wouldn't respond anymore but you seem to be civil and post sources even though they are newspaper articles, so I'll bite.

No it doesn't say exactly that in the article you stated as a source. But that is the thing, it is an article from a newspaper.

Seeing as no one seems to actually look at the EU Report I linked... The following is from the EU Commission Report section 4.2.3 which tells what the final ruling of the Belgium Gaming Commission was with sources:

Quote

According to the assessment of the Belgian Gaming Commission (Kansspelcommissie, 2018), the reward that can be obtained from a gambling activity does not necessarily have to be of monetary value. It is sufficient if it has value for the player, which can for example result from the scarcity of a virtual item. It is therefore not required that a reward from a loot box can be transferred into real-world money.

This shows the same as what @Rowan Amore mentioned a few posts back in that it is the hook that makes the person gamble not the result. In other words a person really wants that rare so it has value to them and therefore that is what is illegal and gambling according to the Belgians. Additionally this:

Quote

The Belgian FPS Justice Gaming Commission defines loot boxes as '…the umbrella term for one or more game elements that are integrated into a video game whereby the player acquires game items either for payment or for free in an apparently random manner'(Kansspelcommissie, 2018).

Note it says UMBRELLA TERM. This means ANY form. It doesn't need to define a name to the method of delivery (Gacha or loot box etc.), simply that any method that has game elements (defined later as a chance roll). SL is a video game just like all other virtual world as you would say "I am going to PLAY Second Life". Additionally, the random manner that you need to obtain the item is by chance (defined later in the report).

The random contents you mention is this: It is that there are random prizes in the box which you can radomly get (defined in the report). The only difference is you get one random content from a gacha in SL not four like in a EA loot box.

Quote

Loot Boxes and Gashapon, Gashapon is not mentioned to be under any scurtiny while loot boxes are and also loot boxes are said in the Wiki to have mechanisms like gashapons  

Gashapon are not mentioned specifically but the manner in which a loot box is defined is stated within the EU Report (Section 2.2) I listed which, takes into consideration both the Belgian and Dutch laws as well as independent research. That said it clearly defines the same manners that SL Gacha uses pay for a play/game, reward is chosen by chance, reward is delivered.

Whilst once again the report doesn't specifically use the term gacha, the identifiers it lists that constitute a loot box are identical to a gacha in second life. Further, this is an extract statement from a source that the EU Commission's report uses to back up its report findings:

Quote

Defining Loot Box and Gacha

Loot boxes are a function that entails an in-app micro-transaction, usually found in games. Players use cash or credit card options to purchase in-game loot boxes containing items. However, a purchase of a box does not guarantee the purchase of the item a player may be after, but only a chance to redeem it. Items that can be obtained are randomly output, thus making the micro-transaction an investment in luck and probability.

Gacha, a Japanese word for “capsule toys”, is quite similar to the function of loot boxes. Like the mechanism of a capsule toy, you can only purchase a capsule without knowing what is inside. It was popularized through Japanese games and can be used as a synonym for loot boxes. The only difference is that virtual in-game currency must be purchased in order to redeem a gacha.

synonym: NOUN; a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word.

Quote

As loot boxes are random, people could spend £10 and get something useful, or spend £100 and get nothing useful at all - similar to how slot machines work.

That is how SL gacha work as well. What would you classify as nothing useful? Would you classify getting an item you already have as nothing useful? I would bet most people and governments would.

The EU Report is a study that they requested so as to use it as a basis for future discussion on how to go about the loot box issue. It isn't law or legislation (despite a few countries having laws for them) but is what any law that the EU create will be based on.

Definitely last post from me so I'll let you have the final say and I will just end with a potential agree to disagree.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[JanuarySwan]

8 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

has value for the player, which can for example result from the scarcity of a virtual item. It is therefore not required that a reward from a loot box can be transferred into real-world money.

Yes, I am civil.  First of all, the article I posted above is from 2018 which is a long time ago and nothing has been done.  Second of all, SL is not a game with an objective nor where one can take an advantage nor sell items to others, somewhat like a black market, for their advantage in a game, as is what was going on with randomized "loot", some valuable for the "the game" - each particular video game with their loot boxes of just their stuff for their game.  They weren't selling decor pretties or toys like SL or real life Gashapons.  These SL Gashapon "decor" items give no one an edge in any kind of video game.

 

8 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

What would you classify as nothing useful?

Useful - it's talking about items that are useful to the particulars of a video game.  

 

8 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Umbrella term for one or more game elements that are integrated into a video game whereby the player acquires game items either for payment

SL Gashapons do not give you game elements as there is no game here.  

Also, at the end of BBC article I posted above from 2018, it concluded that certain video game companies just may choose not to sell their video games in Belgium which they probably did and life went on.

Edited March 7, 2021 by JanuarySwan

[Silent Mistwalker]

Side note: The item in question does not have to tick off ALL of the "requirements" to determine if the item is illegal or not, just most of them.

[JanuarySwan]

In many articles, if I can find them other's can too, that says these "loot boxes" go off making sounds like slot machines with lots of special effects (lights/sounds) and extravaganza upon opening them, and those effects and sounds are what have been linked more to the dopamine effect as they are similar to slot machines, and it's objectionable to have these special effect lights and sounds loot boxes being opened by children.  Adults weren't even in consideration in regards to the special effects ala slot machines type extravaganzas.   

I was tired last night but the BBC article I posted last night also states there needs to be the element of the slot machines special effects for loot boxes or a random item to be illegal.

If a country clearly states Gachaspons which are like the random prize ARCADE games with a picture of what you may or may not receive, then that is SL Gacha.  I do not think America is going to ban Arcades as they are mostly harmless.   There is no such thing as the one with the most toys wins no matter how one buys "toys".  They may have Arcade game makers of the machines get rid of any slot machine sounds, however.  I could see that happening, no more effects or sounds like slot machines.  More from the BBC article...

Some people have been more critical of the decision, suggesting that "Pokemon and other trading cards" would also be illegal under these rules.

But others pointed out that the Belgium Gaming Commission's definition specifically requires there to be "a game element" in opening the crate, which differentiates loot boxes from trading cards.

Edited March 7, 2021 by JanuarySwan

[FairreLilette]

1 hour ago, JanuarySwan said:

go off making sounds like slot machines with lots of special effects (lights/sounds) and extravaganza upon opening them, and those effects and sounds are what have been linked more to the dopamine effect as they are similar to slot machines, and it's objectionable to have these special effect lights and sounds loot boxes being opened by children.  

Yes, this is true.  The boxes going off like noisy and joyful slot machines are a rush to some kids, not all.  

However, I don't think it's clear yet regarding Gashapons, especially since trading cards are dismissed, and trading cards are more like loot boxes in that you have no idea what you are going to get other than say a Pokemon genre one or a Baseball genre one.  

Also, much of the articles are speaking about children, not adults.  Plus, I don't know how much of this is true game-per-game, nor if this is even true below about Fortnite as I'm not a player of Fortnite.   The other thing though is SL is not sold as a game nor does it have any specifics for it's game, things can even be imported here.  Basically, all we know for sure is SL is not a video game, it's a virtual world but has no objectives for it's players to follow.  

Amid criticism, developers Activision and Infinity Ward did away with loot boxes when they unveiled “Call of Duty: Modern Warfare” last year. There are also no loot boxes in the latest iteration of the game, “Call of Duty: Black Ops Cold War.”

“Fortnite,” for its part, was changed last year by developer Epic Games to make loot boxes transparent and thus more like shopping than gambling. There also are no loot boxes in one of the hottest new games, “Cyberpunk 2077,” which was released Thursday.

Evans said many game developers know that loot boxes can breed bad habits. “But they also know players will pay for the dopamine rush, the excitement, of loot boxes, which is the same thing that happens when you pull the lever on a slot machine.”

That may be changing. An Irvine company called Intellivision Entertainment is making a no-loot-boxes policy a key selling point for the family-friendly game console it plans to introduce next year.

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-12-11/video-game-loot-boxes-gambling

 

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by FairreLilette

[JanuarySwan]

2 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

“Fortnite,” for its part, was changed last year by developer Epic Games to make loot boxes transparent and thus more like shopping than gambling.

That is the information I am getting about Fortnite.  Items were not shown in loot boxes but random, and the L.A. Times article above has one kid saying with loot boxes you had about 1 in 10,000 chance of getting something good so that particular kid never liked loot boxes.  But, all the articles I've seen thus far say Fortnite now shows you what items are contained inside prior to buying it or not buying it.

While Fortnite's massively popular battle royale mode has never contained randomized loot boxes, the game's cooperative survival mode, “Save the World,” did — at least until 2019 when Epic changed its loot box system to allow players to see the item inside prior to purchase.Feb 22, 2021

Edited March 7, 2021 by JanuarySwan

[Theresa Linden]

This thread has been closed after being reopened from 2019, and going way off topic. Thank you all for your participation!