Re: Gacha Missing and EMPTY BOXES....

[Finite]

I get what you're saying I just don't see the relevance to SL gacha since SL gacha (box gacha) is not the type of gacha (p2w) being considered for regulation. 

[Prokofy Neva]

3 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

It has been mentioned in these forums before that TOS's mean diddley squat when it comes to laws in other countries. Whilst yes LL is an American company and yes the IRS (or linden lab) don't consider $L that haven't been converted to USD as taxable, that isn't necessarily the same for other countries.

Australia for instance considers both taxable. "The real world value of a transaction may form part of your taxable income, even if it is in Linden dollars, the ATO spokeswoman says." This being the case directly implies that in Australia at least the L$ does indeed have a cash value.

If such regulations on loot boxes comes into play considering gachas just remotely resemble a loot box it would be in LL best interest to ban them just in case they are treated the same. Reading the Legislation @Paul Hexem posted it also mentions things that "adds to or enhances the entertainment value of the product". Considering Second Life isn't a usual game in that there is no progression, I would dare say that the "enhances the entertainment" definition to be very difficult for LL to justify that gacha's are different.

Even if America doesn't pass the law and other countries do it does open up a can of worms for LL considering it is, like other game developers, multi national. This would mean LL having to provide one 'system' for other countries and another for the usa, which would never happen and therefore would mean LL needing to step in and restrict them like skill gaming regions which would diminish the uesrbase accessing them making them non profitable. EA tried this and found it to expensive to have one version of a game for USA and another for other countries so scraped them all together.

I'll try one last time before I, too, will urge the Lindens to close this thread.

There is no "legislation".

There is no "law".

What Paul posted is a *draft law* or what we call "bill". A proposal. A proposal that has no support. This isn't my subjective opinion; it is the reality of the status of this draft of 2019, which was sent to the relevant committee, where it was *not put to a vote*. That's a sharp indicator of how little support and interest it had, or how much complexity or weirdness it had, it did not even get set up as a vote.

Whereupon it DIED. It is two years old, from a previous session of Congress. Leave aside everything else I've explained about its author, his possibility of going to jail, who is running the committee now who knows Philip Rosedale, which might be relevant, who knows, etc. etc.

To revive it in a new session of Congress, you need the author to push it. He has not. Or you need another person to put out a similar bill -- that often happens. No one has. So please, try to grasp that there is a democratic process here. That democratic process was harmed by the very author of this bill as it happens, but I won't confuse you. There is no law. There is no relevant bill. It is DEAD.

[Prokofy Neva]

2 minutes ago, Finite said:

I get what you're saying I just don't see the relevance to SL gacha since SL gacha (box gacha) is not the type of gacha (p2w) being considered for regulation. 

Knocks on the window here.

It's not being considered for regulation.

It was draft legislation -- a bill -- that did not make it through committee in our system.

It is DEAD.

Neither the author nor any other legislator has revived it in any form, now, for two years. Try to let that reality sink in a little.

[Rowan Amore]

Nowhere here does it say dead

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/1629/all-actions

Senate - 05/23/2019 Read twice and referred to the Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation

Edited March 4, 2021 by Rowan Amore

[Finite]

1 minute ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Knocks on the window here.

It's not being considered for regulation.

It was draft legislation -- a bill -- that did not make it through committee in our system.

It is DEAD.

Neither the author nor any other legislator has revived it in any form, now, for two years. Try to let that reality sink in a little.

Do you wake up every day like  someone peed in your Cheerios?

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 minute ago, Finite said:

Do you wake up every day like  someone peed in your Cheerios?

Per many years of forum posts -- well over a decade:  Yes, they do.

[Silent Mistwalker]

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/1629/text

https://illinoislawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Hamilton.pdf

[Paul Hexem]

4 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Lots of irrelevant stuff

Like I said, burying your head in the sand and hoping not to get poked in the butt might be fun for some people, but I don't think it's a good idea.

[Rowan Amore]

 

[Rowan Amore]

We all learned about Bills long ago so no need to be condescending.

[Prokofy Neva]

1 minute ago, Paul Hexem said:

Like I said, burying your head in the sand and hoping not to get poked in the butt might be fun for some people, but I don't think it's a good idea.

So, you don't have to answer this because you should protect your privacy, but are you American? In the US? If not, how well do you understand the legislative process? If you are in the US, which party are you on? Which side are you on in the Insurrection on Jan. 6? I could conceive that the answers to the last two questions might lead you to imagine that there is no DEAD here in this set of information I posted. I personally don't care if gatchas are banned, they are nice, cheap decor items that still look nice and great RP items for builds, and if they deprecate the scripts and machines, that doesn't mean they will wipe the world of gatchas themselves. I can't be sure if they will even remove the after-market player-to-player sales, although that might be prudent if they are doing all this. There are a lot of copybotted rare gatchs on the MP. 

I honestly think no Lindens is going to do this before its time, and its time is not coming. Study the list of personnel the Lindens have at the Lab now. Some of them are highly qualified -- really, so qualified, I wish they ran the country, and not Linden Lab. They do nothing but compliance and finance all day and every day and are "on this," you can be sure. They have not posted any blogs or said anything to indicate that merchants need to shift to a new business model. And I think they would do that at least to the insider FIC if not to the broad user base. I think you can't concede you are wrong and didn't understand the status of this bill, and what to now claim that the smart people should still act as if it is a threat. 

[FairreLilette]

4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

We all learned about Bills long ago 

Wow, it sounds like something that would pass, imo, especially in regards to minors.  However, is it fully established Gachas are loot boxes and I'm not saying "like loot boxes", I'd think it might have to be established that they are in fact loot boxes not like them.  I read a few paragraphs yesterday on loot boxes and it was Greek to me.  I've heard of this that some think Gachas are like loot boxes but never presented a reason why they think that.  

Edited March 4, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Prokofy Neva]

26 minutes ago, Finite said:

Do you wake up every day like  someone peed in your Cheerios?

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

We all learned about Bills long ago so no need to be condescending.

No. Are you unable to understand this bill DIED? Why are you looking at aspects of it and commenting on it? That is an exotic intellectual exercise I suppose but not relevant.

So Rowan, if so, then why are you discussing passages in a bill that is DEAD in committee.

Again, DEAD in Committee, where it was not voted upon at all.

[Luna Bliss]

[Prokofy Neva]

1 minute ago, FairreLilette said:

Wow, it sounds like something that would pass, imo, especially in regards to minors.  However, is it fully established Gachas are loot boxes and I'm not saying "like loot boxes", I'd think it might have to be established that they are in fact loot boxes not like them.  

Fairre, as I said, while you imagine that in the fever swamps, it "might pass," can you concede that this senator may be DOA himself, let along his bill; that his party is not control, oh, and other technical things. Never mind. Things change every 2-4 years locally and nationally so sure, maybe. But not likely, given the history of this now DEAD bill.

if you don't like to read something longer than your hand, look at the picture. The screenshot describing the status of this bill. Which was not voted on even in Committee. Which is dead. 

[Prokofy Neva]

26 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/1629/text

https://illinoislawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Hamilton.pdf

You do realize that whatever you want to post now in triumphant gatcha gotcha glee, is not relevant?

That posting the link to a draft bill I discussed at length and which is now DEAD (see above) is not a winner here in this discussion.

That this original bill DIED. That any other bill then has that as a precedent and if not dead yet, will die, too. But there aren't any. Any that might be a glimmer in Sen. Kirkland's eye or whatever -- they have this hard fact on the ground of THIS one having failed. Oh, and that what the Illinois Law Review thinks about this is irrelevant. The purpose of lawyers and law reviews is to identify what they think are legislative threats or legislative environments that they can get their clients to PAY THEM to remove in various ways, visible and invisible, through lobbying, a generally legal activity. 

I really can't stress enough to non-Americans that you need to understand the system you claim to wield now at your ideological enemies. And to American coders, you need to understand how Congress works. It is not a coding cave that makes strings of code that then self-execute, for one, and the JIRA has not been closed by Oz Linden, for two.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[Silent Mistwalker]

Sorry guys. Prok is right. It's dead.

https://www.billtrack50.com/BillDetail/1129027

[FairreLilette]

6 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Fairre, as I said, while you imagine that in the fever swamps, it "might pass," can you concede that this senator may be DOA himself, let along his bill; that his party is not control, oh, and other technical things. Never mind. Things change every 2-4 years locally and nationally so sure, maybe. But not likely, given the history of this now DEAD bill.

if you don't like to read something longer than your hand, look at the picture. The screenshot describing the status of this bill. Which was not voted on even in Committee. Which is dead. 

Maybe so Prokofy, but it sounds like something parents might not like in regards to loot boxes so it might arise again.  Being shot down once hardly ends things when it comes to minors.

But, like I said I've only heard some people say a few times that Gachas are like loot boxes but they never presented a reason why.  

I read a few paragraphs on loot boxes and how you can propel yourself upwards towards prizes or something.  It didn't sound like Gachas to me that's why I'm asking because I want to know why people think Gachas are like loot boxes, how so?

IOW, it's been an empty statement.  Just the words Gachas are like loot boxes with no explanation.  

Edited March 4, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

You do realize that whatever you want to post now in triumphant gatcha gotcha glee, is not relevant?

That posting the link to a draft bill I discussed at length and which is now DEAD (see above) is not a winner here in this discussion.

That this original bill DIED. That any other bill then has that as a precedent and if not dead yet, will die, too. But there aren't any. Any that might be a glimmer in Sen. Kirkland's eye or whatever -- they have this hard fact on the ground of THIS one having failed. Oh, and that what the Illinois Law Review thinks about this is irrelevant.

Posting 2 links for people to read for themselves is posting in triumph? WTF? 

I just posted... oh hell never mind. Fekking humans.

[Prokofy Neva]

2 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Sorry guys. Prok is right. It's dead.

https://www.billtrack50.com/BillDetail/1129027

It's not that "Prok is right". It's that various web sites that track bills are right. There are many of them now, you have to look at all of them. It's dead on all of them. I didn't realize Markey was supporting it.

The days when Ed Markey, God bless him, the first gay congressman, can cross the aisle to work with a Republican from Missouri to "think about the kids" are, well, over.

Like, I mean. Really over.

 

[Rowan Amore]

As this congressional session ended Jan. 3, anything leftover was cleared.  That does not mean it won't be reintroduced.  

[Prokofy Neva]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

As this congressional session ended Jan. 3, anything leftover was cleared.  That does not mean it won't be reintroduced.  

You're fishing now, and grasping at straws, and there's no need to keep exposing yourself to ridicule and doing that. The bill died not on Jan. 3. Or even Jan. 6, the way many other things big and small died. It died long ago when it went to committee in 2020. So let's make the Sign of the Cross over it and give it a decent Christian burial. 

[Finite]

Idk. I just don't why I was target of your angst. I merely stated none of it was relevant to SL gacha which is what this thread is about. So I assumed your text buffets were related in some way to  SL gacha.

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 minute ago, Prokofy Neva said:

It's not that "Prok is right". It's that various web sites that track bills are right. There are many of them now, you have to look at all of them. It's dead on all of them. I didn't realize Markey was supporting it.

The days when Ed Markey, God bless him, the first gay congressman, can cross the aisle to work with a Republican from Missouri to "think about the kids" are, well, over.

Like, I mean. Really over.

 

You owe me an apology.

[Prokofy Neva]

3 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Posting 2 links for people to read for themselves is posting in triumph? WTF? 

I just posted... oh hell never mind. Fekking humans.

Did you realize that several people ALREADY posted these same links, multiple times, each thinking they had triumphed.

I parsed them at length to get them to read their links (people so often don't) and accept the bill was dead.

You now want to pretend you're a good citizen posting useful links when you can't be arsed to read even your comrades' previous posts here. Understood, you won't read mine. Thank you for admitting that you were wrong when you posted this link to a bill, thinking it meant it was in play. Thank you for admitting you now see it is dead.

I've laid out lots of factors explaining why it won't revive. Read them, or not. But do concede that it is not a walk on the beach.