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Re: Gacha Missing and EMPTY BOXES....


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1 minute ago, Finite said:

Idk. I just don't why I was target of your angst. I merely stated none of it was relevant to SL gacha which is what this thread is about. So I assumed your text buffets were related in some way to  SL gacha.

Text buffet..I like that.

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1 minute ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

You owe me an apology.

Well, when you're done actually reading the last few pages of this god-forsaken thread, you may grasp that you owe me one, if anything, but my God, apologies are admissions that someone was wrong are not what I look for on the forums!

The Lindens could find another reason, unrelated to legislation, having to do with an overheated economy or copybotting incentives, to remove gatcha. Go discuss that.

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1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Text buffet..I like that.

Well snack on my text buffet, dearie pies, you may learn something. You will arm yourself with useful information, unrelated to me or anything I do, about what might affect any other bill that might appear. The macaroni and cheese is at the end of the table if you don't like the chicken fingers.

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1 minute ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Did you realize that several people ALREADY posted these same links, multiple times, each thinking they had triumphed.

I parsed them at length to get them to read their links (people so often don't) and accept the bill was dead.

You now want to pretend you're a good citizen posting useful links when you can't be arsed to read even your comrades' previous posts here. Understood, you won't read mine. Thank you for admitting that you were wrong when you posted this link to a bill, thinking it meant it was in play. Thank you for admitting you now see it is dead.

I've laid out lots of factors explaining why it won't revive. Read them, or not. But do concede that it is not a walk on the beach.

Comrades? roflmao

I don't know who you think I am and I don't care, but, you are way off base. You are still accusing me of saying things I NEVER SAID. 

I'm done with you and the rest of humanity. All humans ever do is destroy everything and everyone around them. Eff off with that.

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I just don't see Gachas as loot boxes and no one is answering my question here.  If Gachas are loot boxes than so are real life collectibles like Beanie Babies.  If you collect Beanie Babies you can collect them however you want, just like Gachas.  And, you can buy only one Beanie Baby in your whole life, you don't have to collect a whole set of anything that is considered a collectible or a collectible in a set is the professional term.  Gachas are collectibles in a set but you don't have to buy the whole set...buying the whole set is not a requirement.  

Edited by FairreLilette
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13 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Maybe so Prokofy, but it sounds like something parents might not like in regards to loot boxes so it might arise again.  Being shot down once hardly ends things when it comes to minors.

But, like I said I've only heard some people say a few times that Gachas are like loot boxes but they never presented a reason why.  

I read a few paragraphs on loot boxes and how you can propel yourself upwards towards prizes or something.  It didn't sound like Gachas to me that's why I'm asking because I want to know why people think Gachas are like loot boxes, how so?

IOW, it's been an empty statement.  Just the words Gachas are like loot boxes with no explanation.  

Lootboxes are NOT like gatchas as any sane or rational person willing to write columns of criteria, put them next to each other, and reason with concepts and numbers, can do.

And don't look to Kirkland, the Iowa Law Review, or Joshua Hawley's office for that information, or, need I say, the forums. Look around at various other web sites discussing this and news articles and do your own thinking. Again, not to make anyone complacent as in the end, everyone is on your own and run for your life, but the Lindens do have a competent team of professionals at the helm now. They are not like, you know, Jason or Jeremy code kiddies on the IRC channel planning to get Prok banned in between sessions of taking in the haul from their men's clothing store OH and their job at LL. They are people who have worked at real companies. I don't go to office hours but those interested in these things can try going and asking. 

 

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2 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

If Gachas are loot boxes than so are real life collectibles like Beanie Babies.

Not a valid comparison, unless people are buying the Beanie Babies from a machine that dispenses random ones with some being worth more than others and there are higher odds for trying to get the ones that are worth more.

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A bill is considered dead when it has been defeated or removed from.consideration for the rest of the session.  The session that just ended did end Jan. 3.  It was not voted on, therefore not defeat, just not considered in the last session hence being called dead.  That does not mean it will not be reintroduced in the next session.  The session that just ended did have quite a bit of more pressing matters to consider plus it was an election period.

The only thing I will conceded is that it has died in the precious session.

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1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

A bill is considered dead when it has been defeated or removed from.consideration for the rest of the session.  The session that just ended did end Jan. 3.  It was not voted on, therefore not defeat, just not considered in the last session hence being called dead.  That does not mean it will not be reintroduced in the next session.  The session that just ended did have quite a bit of more pressing matters to consider plus it was an election period.

The only thing I will conceded is that it has died in the precious session.

It's called "DEAD" because it *is* dead. You seem to want to substitute Fisking and literalisms based on search-strings for recognition of reality.

Did you tune in to what happened on January 6?

Have you looked at COVID rates in your state?

Do you realize what Turkey is doing right now?

I mean, they have other issues. That never stops an elected official from doing something irrelevant and stupid, but even the highly irrelevant and stupid one at the end of THIS search string is not reintroducing it. How do I know, although I haven't called his office? Although you could, since you seem to share his goals if not views.

Because none of the tracking sites show it as re-introduced.

Because there is no news story from Ed Markey saying he wants to re-introduce it, this time, with someone not destroying the very foundations of democracy, but then, gatcha does that, too.

Because now that Maria is at the head of that committee, through which any bill would have to pass, and she was VP of RealNetworks, I do not see that she will ever, ever, in her life, in a million years, put pen to approving something that in any way harms Big IT and gaming companies. Ever. In her life. And for good reasons.

Do you have ANY other shred of evidence that this hypothetical 1 percent in your 99/1 code world will come to pass? I don't think so. That's not how politics work. It doesn't work by the 1% hypothetical that you code for out of the 100. 

PS Have you LOOKED at the pull prices lately? I'm banned from this one because I regularly criticize their policies and practices and the high pull price.

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15 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Not a valid comparison, unless people are buying the Beanie Babies from a machine that dispenses random ones with some being worth more than others and there are higher odds for trying to get the ones that are worth more.

I think it's a very valid comparison because Beanie Babies can be dispensed from machines, not to mention there all kinds of ways to buy Beanie Babies, even second-hand ones, part of a set, full set which may be the commemoratives or a certain year.  This could be any kind of collectible fill in the blank thing though.  Some people collect full sets, some people are eclectics like me and only want one piece of a set from many different kinds of collectibles.  Regarding Gachas, some people could collect only rares, some could collect only houses.  There is no rule to collecting and one ever has to buy a full set of anything whether real life or SL.  I don't see them as loot boxes.

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We have a law in Ohio called Goddard's law.  It was first introduced in 2013.  It had to be reintroduced in 2015 and became law in 2016.  Sometimes, other issues are more pressing so bills are shelved.  They can then be reintroduced thus resurrected from the" dead'.  As Solar said, it's not actually dead unless it's voted on and defeated.  It can always be reintroduced otherwise.  Not sure what you aren't grasping but I'm done with you, too.

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13 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I don't see them as loot boxes.

I think its our difference.. many people perceive those as loot box because despite differences of platform / currency / payment methods logic behind scheme same.. Using human vulnerability for money gain.

I spend some time thinking how duck hunt in carnival different than SL gacha.. here is result:

Difference you don't actually play a game in carnival win anything you are doing it for fun.. I never shot a gun in my life except carnival duck hunt also I had fun while trying punch box.. I know I cannot win (it requires male strength to make sufficient score) but result? I had fun.

Its not same thing with paying L$50 for a box.. aka gacha difference is one provides entertainment other one takes money gives something random.

For SL it is still in gray area but eventually they have to address it like "skill gaming".

Edited by RunawayBunny
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I just wanted to say one more thing...it sounds like Gacha design is a bit like trading cards.  There are "trading" groups inworld for people who have doubles and want to trade.  I don't see kids trading stuff as a horrendous thing for youth to do.  I did it with my friends as a kid - trading cards.  I liked many types of trading cards.  I even collected Baseball ones as a girl.  It was fun.  We didn't know which cards we are going to get when you buy trading cards because they are packaged and sealed like a surprise.  It's not a big evil thing that I see here.  

Edited by FairreLilette
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38 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I just don't see Gachas as loot boxes and no one is answering my question here.  If Gachas are loot boxes than so are real life collectibles like Beanie Babies.  If you collect Beanie Babies you can collect them however you want, just like Gachas.  And, you can buy only one Beanie Baby in your whole life, you don't have to collect a whole set of anything that is considered a collectible or a collectible in a set is the professional term.  Gachas are collectibles in a set but you don't have to buy the whole set...buying the whole set is not a requirement.  

There's different kinds of gacha. Some of which are regulated in certain countries. But none of them are the type of gacha in SL.

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I don't think what any of us think here about gachas really matters. We aren't the ones interpreting the laws (or hypothetical future laws) to actually apply them. The current gambling or finance laws aren't even applied evenly at this time.

That said, Gacha at its core is gambling regardless of if you're talking about a mobile game or second life. You put money (real money) into a currency and then use that currency to pull a slot machine. It pops out a random item from a predetermined list. You might get a rare item, you might get the same common one 6 times in a row. That is the nature of Gacha style games, RL Gacha machines, etc. The big difference is in second life gacha machines are not required to disclose their chances (like most other games) and that is likely what we would see changed first. 

When will legislation happen? Nobody has any idea. Theres a dozen countries (or even state by state or Provence by Provence) introducing, passing, or abandoning legislation around loot boxes and gacha games. How those will or will not affect Second Life remains to be seen. 

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7 minutes ago, Bitterthorn said:

I don't think what any of us think here about gachas really matters.

^^^  This

Everything else is just folks giving their opinions, usually just to hear themselves talk.

 

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
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20 minutes ago, Bitterthorn said:

That said, Gacha at its core is gambling regardless of if you're talking about a mobile game or second life. You put money (real money) into a currency and then use that currency to pull a slot machine. It pops out a random item from a predetermined list. You might get a rare item,

I wasn't sure this was about gambling but about loot boxes and I've asked if Gachas are loot boxes.  And, if that is so, where is that information because they don't sound the same to me.  I've never seen Gachas in SL like the ones described below.  Plus, with slot machines you can put money in and get NOTHING.

This is a bit about loot boxes:

In video games, a loot box (also called a loot/prize crate) is a consumable virtual item which can be redeemed to receive a randomised selection of further virtual items, or loot, ranging from simple customization options for a player's avatar or character, to game-changing equipment such as weapons and armor. A loot box is typically a form of monetisation, with players either buying the boxes directly or receiving the boxes during play and later buying "keys" with which to redeem them. These systems may also be known as gacha (based on gashapon – capsule toys) and integrated into gacha games.

 

A "loot box" can be named several different ways, usually related to the type of game that it appears in. A "loot box", "loot crate" or "lockbox" is often applied to shooter games since one obtains new equipable outfits or gear from it. Digital card games may use the term "booster pack" following from collectible card game roots.[1]

Loot boxes are often given to players during play, for instance as rewards for leveling up their character or completing a multiplayer game without quitting.[2][3] Loot boxes may also be given out through promotions outside of gameplay, such as watching certain streaming events.[4][5] Players can also buy them directly, most often with real-world funds but also through in-game currency.[6] Some loot boxes can be redeemed immediately, while redeeming others requires further consumable items dressed as "keys".[7]

Edited by FairreLilette
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5 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I wasn't sure this was about gambling but about loot boxes and I've asked if Gachas are loot boxes.  And, if that is so, where is that information because they don't sound the same to me.  I've never seen Gachas in SL like the ones described below.  Plus, with slot machines you can put money in and get NOTHING.

This is a bit about loot boxes:

In video games, a loot box (also called a loot/prize crate) is a consumable virtual item which can be redeemed to receive a randomised selection of further virtual items, or loot, ranging from simple customization options for a player's avatar or character, to game-changing equipment such as weapons and armor. A loot box is typically a form of monetisation, with players either buying the boxes directly or receiving the boxes during play and later buying "keys" with which to redeem them. These systems may also be known as gacha (based on gashapon – capsule toys) and integrated into gacha games.

 

A "loot box" can be named several different ways, usually related to the type of game that it appears in. A "loot box", "loot crate" or "lockbox" is often applied to shooter games since one obtains new equipable outfits or gear from it. Digital card games may use the term "booster pack" following from collectible card game roots.[1]

Loot boxes are often given to players during play, for instance as rewards for leveling up their character or completing a multiplayer game without quitting.[2][3] Loot boxes may also be given out through promotions outside of gameplay, such as watching certain streaming events.[4][5] Players can also buy them directly, most often with real-world funds but also through in-game currency.[6] Some loot boxes can be redeemed immediately, while redeeming others requires further consumable items dressed as "keys".[7]

You didn't read down far enough.

Some loot-box systems, primarily from Asian developers, use an approach adapted from gashapon (capsule toy) vending machines.[12] These gacha games offer "spins" (analogous to turning the crank of a capsule machine) to get a random item, character, or other virtual good.

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28 minutes ago, Bitterthorn said:

The big difference is in second life gacha machines are not required to disclose their chances (like most other games) and that is likely what we would see changed first.

THIS.

But . . . as there is pretty much zero in the way of protection for consumers in SL, LL won't mandate this unless they decide it's likely to become a legal embarrassment if they don't.

Pretty much nothing has ever been banned or stopped from SL on the basis of mere ethical considerations.

 

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20 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

You didn't read down far enough.

Some loot-box systems, primarily from Asian developers, use an approach adapted from gashapon (capsule toy) vending machines.[12] These gacha games offer "spins" (analogous to turning the crank of a capsule machine) to get a random item, character, or other virtual good.

Maybe, but it's weird how you get the box.  It sounded to me like a box is given to a player free and then they have to obtain a key...and yada and yada.  The above just sounds like an American Arcade and some American Game Shows also.  

But, ultimately, I have to agree with the sentiment that this will play out when it plays out.  IOW, a law.  

Edited by FairreLilette
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2 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

So, you don't have to answer this because you should protect your privacy, but are you American? In the US? If not, how well do you understand the legislative process? If you are in the US, which party are you on? Which side are you on in the Insurrection on Jan. 6? I could conceive that the answers to the last two questions might lead you to imagine that there is no DEAD here in this set of information I posted. I personally don't care if gatchas are banned, they are nice, cheap decor items that still look nice and great RP items for builds, and if they deprecate the scripts and machines, that doesn't mean they will wipe the world of gatchas themselves. I can't be sure if they will even remove the after-market player-to-player sales, although that might be prudent if they are doing all this. There are a lot of copybotted rare gatchs on the MP. 

I honestly think no Lindens is going to do this before its time, and its time is not coming. Study the list of personnel the Lindens have at the Lab now. Some of them are highly qualified -- really, so qualified, I wish they ran the country, and not Linden Lab. They do nothing but compliance and finance all day and every day and are "on this," you can be sure. They have not posted any blogs or said anything to indicate that merchants need to shift to a new business model. And I think they would do that at least to the insider FIC if not to the broad user base. I think you can't concede you are wrong and didn't understand the status of this bill, and what to now claim that the smart people should still act as if it is a threat. 

Man, you'd argue with the wind, wouldn't you?

The status of those bills doesn't matter. Pretty much none of what you said, as a reply to me, matters. What matters is that people tried to get them passed and are still trying to pass similar ones, in a country that routinely passes stupid laws, on both state and federal levels

So again, like I said- sticking our heads in the sand seems like a bad idea.

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2 hours ago, Bitterthorn said:

 

That said, Gacha at its core is gambling regardless of if you're talking about a mobile game or second life. You put money (real money) into a currency and then use that currency to pull a slot machine. It pops out a random item from a predetermined list. You might get a rare item, you might get the same common one 6 times in a row. That is the nature of Gacha style games, RL Gacha machines, etc. The big difference is in second life gacha machines are not required to disclose their chances (like most other games) and that is likely what we would see changed first. 

 

SL Gacha is not gambling. Gambling you put money in and you either win or get nothing and the odds overall are so that across a group of people there's more loss than wins. Hence why it's a profitable business. People just win what other's have loss.

SL Gacha you put money in and you get an item. It doesn't have to be a rare. Sometimes we aren't even trying to get the rare. There could be another piece that we desire. But we get something and that something has value which is equity. You don't get equity from gambling unless you win.

It's a gumball machine. Not a slot machine.

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