Does Linden Lab Terms of Service allows for adults to sell SL virtual 3D products for real life children while having a child avatar?

[MeshPromo]

I'm new to SL and just started a marketplace. I more interested to make baby / children cloths.

Before make those products, I read the Linden Lab Terms of Service again to make sure non of those rules violated, then found the following.

Quote

 

You agree that you will not:
6.1 (ii) Impersonate any person or entity without their consent, or otherwise misrepresent your affiliation, or if you are an adult, impersonate a minor for the purpose of interacting with a minor using the Service;

https://www.lindenlab.com/tos

 

Here is the problem...

if you are an adult >> Yes I am

impersonate a minor >> To make children / baby cloths, I have to use child / baby avatar to see if the uploaded cloths fit well before selling. So having a child avatar (using the Service) means impersonate a minor. (eg: dressing and talking as Queen Elizabeth means impersonate Queen Elizabeth)

for the purpose of interacting with a minor using the Service >> To sell SL virtual 3D products for a minor means interacting with a minor, because customers sometimes communicate with the seller for redeliver / improvements etc. (Interact = to communicate with or react to https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/interact)

 

That means Linden Lab Terms of Service does NOT allow for adults to sell SL virtual 3D products for real life children while having a child avatar.

So those who sell children / baby products are either real life minors. Or they might find a way to sell only for the real life aduts (eg: by rating those products as in adult category so real life minors cant find it)

 

My first language is not English. So please let me know if I'm wrong. And it would be more useful if you explain using the terms of service or any other rules in Second Life, rather than personal opinions. Thanks.

 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2019 by MeshPromo

[Cinos Field]

You're looking at very dense legalese. I'm not a layer, but generally the legal definition of "Impersonation" is more along the lines of...

Quote

The crime of pretending to be another individual in order to deceive others and gain some advantage.

The intent is important. Simply wearing an avatar wouldn't qualify. The rule is phrased like it is to, well, prevent abuse. As long as you make it clear you're actually an adult, and aren't actively trying to deceive others - minors in particular - it shouldn't be a problem.

I'm sure someone with a more law-focused education could clarify that further. I'm merely a linguist.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

It means you as an adult cannot pretend to be underage in RL to interact with someone else in RL that is underage.

For example, if you meet a person that is 16 years old in rl, you CAN NOT pretend to be 16 yourself in RL in an attempt to engage them in any way.

THAT is what is forbidden.

Edited February 12, 2019 by BilliJo Aldrin
added words

[BilliJo Aldrin]

And another thing, there are no RL children in second life. Why would you even think for a second that you are making clothing for RL babies/toddlers/children?

If you do find you are dealing with a RL child, you should immediately AR them, because they are NOT supposed to be here.

[Blush Bravin]

According to the Wiki, Second Life is intended for people aged 16 and over, with the exception of 13–15-year-old users, who are restricted to the Second Life region of a sponsoring institution (school). Anyone under the age of 18 is a child. So you indeed can come upon children in SL who are here legitimately and should not be ARd automatically. I come across teens in SL occasionally.  In no situation should a person under the age of 13 be in SL. And even for those who are 13-15 you would not have an instance where you would interact with them legitimately unless you are part of the RL school sponsoring the area open to the children. 

One thing you can bet on though, it's highly unlikely that any 16-18 year old is going to be roleplaying as a child. At that age they can't wait to grow up.

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

And another thing, there are no RL children in second life. Why would you even think for a second that you are making clothing for RL babies/toddlers/children?

If you do find you are dealing with a RL child, you should immediately AR them, because they are NOT supposed to be here.

So, you would AR my RL daughter as she is 16 in RL and legally uses SL? 

25 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

According to the Wiki, Second Life is intended for people aged 16 and over, with the exception of 13–15-year-old users, who are restricted to the Second Life region of a sponsoring institution (school). Anyone under the age of 18 is a child. So you indeed can come upon children in SL who are here legitimately and should not be ARd automatically. I come across teens in SL occasionally.  In no situation should a person under the age of 13 be in SL. And even for those who are 13-15 you would not have an instance where you would interact with them legitimately unless you are part of the RL school sponsoring the area open to the children. 

One thing you can bet on though, it's highly unlikely that any 16-18 year old is going to be roleplaying as a child. At that age they can't wait to grow up.

 

^^^ THIS 

Although i have met a few actual teens who Are teen avs in SL.. It's true most want to be adults.. or monsters... or fairy unicorns. Just about anything but a teen. I will say I have ARed a few RL teens (or at least they claimed to be RL teens anyway) who were looking for someone to .... Teach them about life.. I don't think i ever hit the AR button that fast... 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

32 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

So, you would AR my RL daughter as she is 16 in RL and legally uses SL? 

^^^ THIS 

Although i have met a few actual teens who Are teen avs in SL.. It's true most want to be adults.. or monsters... or fairy unicorns. Just about anything but a teen. I will say I have ARed a few RL teens (or at least they claimed to be RL teens anyway) who were looking for someone to .... Teach them about life.. I don't think i ever hit the AR button that fast... 

when i was referring to children i meant under 16. You could certainly infer that from my previous post about not representing as a minor to a rl minor. As the wiki shows 13 to 15 year olds are restricted to the sims  of the group that sponsors them and there should never ever be rl under 13's anywhere on SL.

I know you never miss a chance to jump all over whatever I post, but if thats your thing, who am I to say anything about it?

Edited February 12, 2019 by BilliJo Aldrin
fixed a number

[Drake1 Nightfire]

26 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

when i was referring to children i meant under 16. You could certainly infer that from my previous post about not representing as a minor to a rl minor. As the wiki shows 13 to 15 year olds are restricted to the sims  of the group that sponsors them and there should never ever be rl under 13's anywhere on SL.

I know you never miss a chance to jump all over whatever I post, but if thats your thing, who am I to say anything about it?

Except that legally a 16 year old is still a child.. Saying there are no children in SL and meaning anyone under 16 is not even close to logical. Apparently you seem to think a 16 year old is an adult. 

I'm not jumping all over whatever you post. You said children. And from what you replied, children means less than 16. Good to know. 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Except that legally a 16 year old is still a child.. Saying there are no children in SL and meaning anyone under 16 is not even close to logical. Apparently you seem to think a 16 year old is an adult. 

I'm not jumping all over whatever you post. You said children. And from what you replied, children means less than 16. Good to know. 

Yes but taking my two post together you'd have seen that I accept that 16 and 17 year olds ARE allowed in Second Life, and that  I was referring to ARing anyone that claimed to be under 16.

And no, 16 year olds are not adult.

I guess I just need to be more specific to avoid confusing people that take every word literally.

You final comment "good to know" means once again that you are baiting me or trying to be argumentative. 

By the way, you never did apologize that one time when you called me an out and out liar over Kwanzaa, and I then posted the Encyclopedia Britannica  article to back me up, so yes, you find any and  every excuse to attack everything I say.

Have a nice life Mr Nightfire.

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

I suppose if  I get hit on in the next day or two by someone claiming to be 16 in RL,  I'll have a pretty good idea who's sock puppet it is, or who's daughter.

Edited February 12, 2019 by BilliJo Aldrin
added two words that got left out

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Except that legally a 16 year old is still a child.. Saying there are no children in SL and meaning anyone under 16 is not even close to logical. Apparently you seem to think a 16 year old is an adult. 

I'm not jumping all over whatever you post. You said children. And from what you replied, children means less than 16. Good to know. 

BilliJo was responding to the OP's talking about selling "children / baby products." In Second Life that would probably refer to things like Zooby Baby, Toddleedoo and, at the high end of the age range, Tweenster products, all of which look younger than the minimum age anyone is allowed to be in Second Life, so it's impossible for those products to be made by or sold to anyone who actually is the age those products represent. Avatars that represent teenagers of the minimum age of a user of Second Life generally use products that can also be used by avatars representing adults.
 

[KanryDrago]

Age of adulthood varies from place to place defining it as 18 is  therefore wrong

most accept however that age 16 has entered a quasi adulthood hence I assume why sl pins entry rights at that age. Generally from age 16 onwards there is a gradual granting of what are considered adult rights so I am unconvinced that labelling a 16 year old a child is correct.

Certainly for example in the UK at 16 you can do the following

Move out from home

Work full time

Join the army

Smoke

Marry

Have sex

drive a motorcycle (cars come at 17)

Vote in some parts of the uk.

All of those above do not say to me child

It should also be noted that being defined as an adult at 18 still doesn't give you all adult rights in some places such as being able to drink alcohol in many parts of the us

[Cindy Evanier]

2 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

Age of adulthood varies from place to place defining it as 18 is  therefore wrong

most accept however that age 16 has entered a quasi adulthood hence I assume why sl pins entry rights at that age. Generally from age 16 onwards there is a gradual granting of what are considered adult rights so I am unconvinced that labelling a 16 year old a child is correct.

Certainly for example in the UK at 16 you can do the following

Move out from home

Work full time

Join the army

Smoke

Marry

Have sex

drive a motorcycle (cars come at 17)

Vote in some parts of the uk.

All of those above do not say to me child

It should also be noted that being defined as an adult at 18 still doesn't give you all adult rights in some places such as being able to drink alcohol in many parts of the us

Mine are all banned from those activities until they are 35

[KanryDrago]

2 minutes ago, Cindy Evanier said:

Mine are all banned from those activities until they are 35

You want your kids living with you till they are 35 o.0 and with no job?

Edited February 12, 2019 by KanryDrago

[Cindy Evanier]

Just now, KanryDrago said:

You want your kids living with you till they are 35 o.0 and with no job?

I have a list of chores  

[KanryDrago]

Just now, Cindy Evanier said:

I have a list of chores  

hmm mine got to 18 and it was there the front door, there is a big wide world out there go and have fun without your old man telling you what to do

[Solar Legion]

I see some are still up to their usual shenanigans ....

[Cindy Evanier]

6 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

hmm mine got to 18 and it was there the front door, there is a big wide world out there go and have fun without your old man telling you what to do

It was a joke really.  I have a 21 year old in university studying astrophysics and a 19 year old just coming to the end of an apprenticeship.  The 13 year old will get a paper round as soon as he has grown a bit and can carry a full bag  (he is tiny for his age).

[KanryDrago]

Just now, Cindy Evanier said:

It was a joke really.  I have a 21 year old in university studying astrophysics and a 19 year old just coming to the end of an apprenticeship.  The 13 year old will get a paper round as soon as he has grown a bit and can carry a full bag  (he is tiny for his age).

Get him one of those wheeled trolley bags so he has no excuse to shirk his duty to add to your vodka fund

[Lindal Kidd]

Sigh...to get back to the original question... @MeshPromo, that is a wrong interpretation.

You may freely make clothing for child avatars, and sell it.  You may use a child-size avatar to develop and test your clothing.

What the Terms of Service is warning you against is pretending to be a minor with the intention of deceiving another person who is a minor in Real Life.  More specifically, it's a violation of the ToS to pretend to be a minor in order to entice an actual minor into inappropriate behavior (for example, virtual sex).

[Bree Giffen]

6 hours ago, MeshPromo said:

Here is the problem...

if you are an adult >> Yes I am

impersonate a minor >> To make children / baby cloths, I have to use child / baby avatar to see if the uploaded cloths fit well before selling. So having a child avatar (using the Service) means impersonate a minor. (eg: dressing and talking as Queen Elizabeth means impersonate Queen Elizabeth)

for the purpose of interacting with a minor using the Service >> To sell SL virtual 3D products for a minor means interacting with a minor, because customers sometimes communicate with the seller for redeliver / improvements etc.

 

You are not impersonating a minor by wearing a child avatar to design child avatar products.

You should not be impersonating or roleplaying as a minor while acting as a store merchant. Nobody does this. Merchants and customers in SL become serious adults when it comes to purchases made with linden dollars.

Your customers are almost always real life adults roleplaying as kids. If you ever talk with someone in SL who says they are a child in real life, they are either a real child or impersonating a child. As long as you yourself do not pretend to be a child and don't try to socialize with them, you are safe. Also, Linden Lab can see all chat records so no one can accuse you of saying things you did not. 

In summary, a merchant can sell child products in SL and be within the TOS.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

6 hours ago, MeshPromo said:

 

if you are an adult >> Yes I am

impersonate a minor >> To make children / baby cloths, I have to use child / baby avatar to see if the uploaded cloths fit well before selling. So having a child avatar (using the Service) means impersonate a minor. (eg: dressing and talking as Queen Elizabeth means impersonate Queen Elizabeth)

for the purpose of interacting with a minor using the Service >> To sell SL virtual 3D products for a minor means interacting with a minor, because customers sometimes communicate with the seller for redeliver / improvements etc. (Interact = to communicate with or react to https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/interact)

 

Does that mean that i am impersonating a woman because I wear a demo female mesh body to test my clothing? Not at all. 

You are not interacting with a minor, you aren't interacting with anyone if they shop at your MP store. An IM isnt really interacting with them. Also, they are talking about a long standing NO-NO in Sl. The "interaction" between adults and minors that is banned from almost the world. 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

By the way, you never did apologize that one time when you called me an out and out liar over Kwanzaa, and I then posted the Encyclopedia Britannica  article to back me up, so yes, you find any and  every excuse to attack everything I say.

Um, that was Phorumities who posted a link to  Encyclopedia Britannica, not you.. 

So, I'm a little confused as to what you mean. I actually agree with 90% of what you say and have, to my recollection, not attacked you over anything. 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

3 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Um, that was Phorumities who posted a link to  Encyclopedia Britannica, not you.. 

So, I'm a little confused as to what you mean. I actually agree with 90% of what you say and have, to my recollection, not attacked you over anything. 

oh yes, my bad

*will add the eye-roll emoji when I get home*

Edited February 12, 2019 by BilliJo Aldrin
added image as promised

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

oh yes, my bad

*will add the eye-roll emoji when I get home*

I've heard that when you lie too much it becomes difficult to keep everything straight, so best just to tell the truth.