Inworld Store Closure - Similar to RL Blue Laws

[BilliJo Aldrin]

9 minutes ago, chibiusa Ling said:

So as of late....I have given up on trying to figure out what is considered acceptable on this forum anymore.

 

That post will probably get you a warning about discussing moderator activity.

Edited February 3, 2019 by BilliJo Aldrin
added stuff, removed stuff

[chibiusa Ling]

9 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

That post will probably get you a warning about discussing moderator activity.

Problem solved!

[Syo Emerald]

6 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

At least a pseudo-friendly tone isn't ARable.... yet

Missed you at the pool party last night.

*grins*

Not that I would wish it was.

And I hadn't forgotten the party, but when my roleplay ended at around 1.30 am CET, I felt an unresistable urge to seek the comfort of my bed.

[Lindal Kidd]

I think Lestat Reuven's post cleared up a lot of the confusion and speculation in this thread.  Thank you, Lestat!

[BilliJo Aldrin]

On 2/2/2019 at 10:35 PM, Drake1 Nightfire said:

If you don't log in on the Sabbath, how are yoiu breaking it by leaving your SL store open? YOU are not working. You are not there. I'm not picking a fight here, i am honestly curious. I would assume you don't answer any emails pertaining to your business on The Sabbath either? 

Honestly, would it be any different from having a vending machine in RL? Sure, the owner doesn't work on the sabbath, but I'm sure they wouldn't go around the day before unplugging them all so no one could get a drink out of them on the owners Sabbath.

I'm sure there could be 1000 other similar examples in RL.

 

 

[Selene Gregoire]

11 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

I think Lestat Reuven's post cleared up a lot of the confusion and speculation in this thread.  Thank you, Lestat!

Yes, unfortunately not in a good way.

[PookieTM]

After reading through a whole 8 pages, I'm confused as to why many people are attacking the store owner. I think she cleared things up perfectly and also explained the oh so dreaded "in real life I hate SL" (which honestly I don't see how that could possibly warrant a boycott, but okay...?).

I feel like people are very selective on what they tolerate and respect...

I wonder if this forum post would be so full of hate towards the owner if they claimed to be LGBT or if they wanted to close every week (with the same exact criteria) to spend time with their dog or something.

Or is religion just this big-bad ugly some people believe it to be, that they try their hardest to convince people its useless, counterproductive, and primitive. Feel free to believe what you wish, but I mean c'mon now. Are we really going to question and interrogate a woman for her own chooses and continue to persecute her because

"rah! rah! She's religious! And anyone who believes in a higher power shouldn't be in SL!"

Now I'm not claiming this is what was said or anything, but it does feel like people have such venom towards religion as a whole, especially with the whole continuing to question her and her motives.

Not to mention that people were talking about a marketplace store, and her being a hypocrite for having one, without there ever being mention of her having one???(and as we see in her post, she doesn't have one). 😕

This may make some people upset at me (and even write me off as a person) and I understand that,

really I do,

but I feel like some people on the forums are kinda, just a little tiny teeny bit, mean. And that could be due to me being young, or sensitive or just not used to overly snarky, sarcastic or rude interactions in my real life. But I have been noticing it a lot while reading through posts (not just this one).

Obviously not everybody is mean, in fact I think majority of the regular or reoccurring faces are pretty pleasant and have some pretty cool view points. But then there are a few that just seem so negative and rude towards people and that kinda makes me sad (not that my feelings or opinions matter or anything. People are free to express themselves whichever way they please. Especially on the Internet.) 

Idk. This could be due to me being a tragic optimist that never wants to upset someone when they haven't earned it or make them feel low, dumb and inferior or whatever. 

Anyways that's my two cents and I'm not trying to attack any one individual its just that all this hatred kinda made my head hurt.

And I apologize for kinda derailing there, its just that this has  been on my mind for at least a week now and I have been debating if I should even bother reading or even coming back to the forums even though I love learning about second life and all it has to offer. As well as its residents and their opinions, and daily routines, their beautiful photography and just the plain wacky things they get up to. I even got a hand full of ideas to do with my SL, and as of Friday, I have been traveling the mainland roads (I'm currently still in Zanra is that what its called? 😂) simply because I read a post about it. 

Okay I'm finally done with this long post. Oh! but what is the name of the said shop again, so I can happily support her? Was it "Ditto"? 😄

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

On 11/29/2018 at 11:25 PM, LittleMe Jewell said:

I happened to see a notice in a store that I frequent quite a bit that states the store will now be closing on Fridays at sunset until Saturday at sunset - title "Closed on Sabbath".  And the notice specifically states that if you cam shop from a neighboring store during that time, you may be banned from the store. 

When I was a child, we had Blue Laws in RL -- stores, other than grocery stores, could not be open on Sundays. It was hold over from our early religious days here in the US where Sunday was the Sabbath and we were supposed to do nothing besides worship on that day.  Even though I thought the laws were ridiculous, I somewhat understood where it came from because way, way back, life was quite often rule by religion.  However, these days, not so much.  There are still some RL places that do not open on Sunday for religious reasons and there are people that refuse to work on Sunday for religious reasons.  I don't have any problems with personal choices like that as long as the government is not imposing it on us like they used to.

I don't have any issues with anyone in SL refusing to log in on their Sabbath or do any SL work /activity on their holy day.  I am a tad confused, however, on how allowing sales from their store fit into the religious views.  Admittedly, I am not religious by any means, and thus many religious views perplex me.

Has anyone encountered such in SL before?

um.... sometimes peoples simple.. you know what nvm. I decided to be a positive person so, let me just say ...........

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

On 2/3/2019 at 12:22 PM, Fionalein said:

The fire was lit because of you and worse yet: because you used the bus you made the bus driver break the Sabbat laws as well.

 

On 2/3/2019 at 2:41 PM, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Soooo if their house catches fire on their sabbath, would they forbid the firemen from doing work to put out the fire?

The injunction for others to have a day of rest is basically early workers' rights legislation - and all the more progressive and forward thinking for how old it is. EVERYONE gets the day off, with recognition that this might be handled differently (like Sunday as the common day of rest, or secular legislation around work schedules).

Saving lives always takes precedence over Shabbat observance. This is a very long-standing Jewish principle. Because fire spreads, that will be right up there in importance. Because people need shelter and a safe place to live, that will be right up there in importance. Something like cleaning up afterwards, that can wait til sundown. Addressing structural damage will depend on the consequences of waiting.

There are also principles around who should be the ones to do the work. Since people who aren't Jewish aren't obligated to keep Shabbat in the first place, if the task can be done just as well by someone who isn't Jewish, then let that person do it. But if there's no one else, or a Jewish person is best suited, then the Jew is obligated to break Shabbat and do whatever is necessary to save the life. This is why you get things like the IDF coming into an area struck by disaster as quickly as possible to set up water purification facilities. The IDF has the infrastructure to do it and Israel is a world leader in water purification. If that needs to be done on Shabbat, so be it.

A lot of these things make far more sense when you look into how it's actually practiced. Taking an idea or line out of context might give ample opportunity for the jollies of ridicule and outrage, but it's rarely good practice for understanding.

 

[Lindal Kidd]

12 hours ago, PookieTM said:

After reading through a whole 8 pages, I'm confused as to why many people are attacking the store owner. I think she cleared things up perfectly ...

I agree, Pookie.  I think Lestat should do what she feels is right...LL agrees, in that the land owner is free to make her own rules...and most of her customers appear to support her choice, too.  

I think a lot of the thread has been non-Jewish people trying to explain Jewish customs to other non-Jewish people.  Which strikes me as both presumptuous and prone to error.  All religions (heck, all cultures) have customs and practices that make no sense to outsiders.  That doesn't make them wrong.

[Nacy Nightfire]

On 11/30/2018 at 3:59 PM, Madelaine McMasters said:

"Whether you think you can, or think you can't... you're right - Henry Ford"

"Thinking too much is fun!"

Of course quoting a famously pernicious religious bigot in the context of an open discussion re: a person's right to put into practice one's religious beliefs as a merchant in SL is always an interesting choice coming from a person who professes to think too much.  As many respondents here jumped to inaccurately guess the religion in question -  just the religious group  reviled by Henry Ford - along with your choice to once again refer back to your chosen quote in a later posting to this thread, demonstrates that thinking isn't as much fun as one might expect.  Your description of previously challenging someone with a similar practice using an example of accrued interest/banking, uncomfortably, I read as an additional  "dog whistle", but I could be wrong.  I hope I'm wrong. 

I'm very glad the merchant in question took the opportunity to explain her thoughts and practices as well as appalled it was necessary for her to speak out and defend her practices.  She should not have been put on the spot.  Even if unnamed in this thread, such information gets out, as it had in this instance.  Needless to say, respect for each other's feelings and beliefs is paramount - much more so then our sense of entitlement to be able to purchase digital ephemera on a 24/7 basis and our expectation that we should dictate how other people run their businesses.

 

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

48 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

I think a lot of the thread has been non-Jewish people trying to explain Jewish customs to other non-Jewish people.  Which strikes me as both presumptuous and prone to error.  All religions (heck, all cultures) have customs and practices that make no sense to outsiders.  That doesn't make them wrong.

 

The store owner isn't Jewish. She's a non-denominational Christian who's decided to do things a certain way based on her reading of (probably Christian versions of) Jewish texts. From what she wrote earlier, what she's doing is very personal.

It's really quite important for everyone discussing this to keep this in mind.

[Love Zhaoying]

22 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

 

The store owner isn't Jewish. She's a non-denominational Christian who's decided to do things a certain way based on her reading of (probably Christian versions of) Jewish texts. From what she wrote earlier, what she's doing is very personal.

It's really quite important for everyone discussing this to keep this in mind.

That’s kind of hard, with all the derails.

[Lindal Kidd]

And, so what?  It's her beliefs, her store, her rules.  I don't think she deserves to be flogged for that.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Lindal Kidd said:

I agree, Pookie.  I think Lestat should do what she feels is right...LL agrees, in that the land owner is free to make her own rules...and most of her customers appear to support her choice, too.  

I think a lot of the thread has been non-Jewish people trying to explain Jewish customs to other non-Jewish people.  Which strikes me as both presumptuous and prone to error.  All religions (heck, all cultures) have customs and practices that make no sense to outsiders.  That doesn't make them wrong.

I don't think the main argument was the store owners right to close the store on their Sabbath but rather was she working on the Sabbath if she didn't log into SL or didn't answer customer e-mails.

My clicking buy in their store on the Sabbath does NOT mean they were breaking their Sabbath in my opinion.

[Madelaine McMasters]

4 minutes ago, Nacy Nightfire said:

Of course quoting a famously pernicious religious bigot in the context of an open discussion re: a person's right to put into practice one's religious beliefs as a merchant in SL is always an interesting choice coming from a person who professes to think too much.  As many respondents here jumped to inaccurately guess the religion in question -  just the religious group  reviled by Henry Ford - along with your choice to once again refer back to your chosen quote in a later posting to this thread, demonstrates that thinking isn't as much fun as one might expect.  Your description of previously challenging someone with a similar practice using an example of accrued interest/banking, uncomfortably, I read as an additional  "dog whistle", but I could be wrong.  I hope I'm wrong. 

I'm very glad the merchant in question took the opportunity to explain her thoughts and practices as well as appalled it was necessary for her to speak out and defend her practices.  She should not have been put on the spot.  Even if unnamed in this thread, such information gets out, as it had in this instance.  Needless to say, respect for each other's feelings and beliefs is paramount - much more so then our sense of entitlement to be able to purchase digital ephemera on a 24/7 basis and our expectation that we should dictate how other people run their businesses.

My example of accrued interest/banking was intended to demonstrate that the world's economy does not pause for religious observances. I'd have been perfectly happy with a response from any person of faith that they're doing the best they can to practice that faith under modern circumstances, knowing that requires accepting some inevitable mismatches. What catches my attention are examples of people drawing hard lines where none can exist, either because they're unaware of the world's workings, unaware of the underlying ideas behind the particulars of their faith, or simply don't care. In the OP's case, the mention of banning for anticipated transgressions seemed a little harsh. I don't generally start off presuming the worst from the people around me.

Over the years, I've purchased rough lumber for home remodeling projects from an Amish farmer in central Wisconsin, a neighbor of dear friends of mine. For as long as I can remember, people have wondered if the Amish are breaking their vows by using machines, such as gasoline engines, that make use of electricity. Curious about his faith and how he practices it, I've had several talks with him while loading lumber into my trailer. He said that focusing on such detail obscures the intent of his belief that certain technologies fray the fabric of society and should be avoided. He was a thoughtful advocate for his personal ideology.

He has a diesel electric generator on his property, which powers his saws, lights and the modern appliances in his home (refrigerator, sump pump, etc). I loved his explanation for how that's "kosher". His beef with electricity is that it's so easily used for counterproductive purposes, like telecommunications. By generating his own electricity, he avoids the "grid" that he sees that as ultimately detrimental. He has a phone, but it's in his barn, not in the house. He needs it to run his business, not his life. He would use utility provided natural gas if it were available at his farm, as it's a lot harder to lead yourself to moral corruption with it. Facebook did not yet exist when I had those discussions with him. It would be, I think, be the shining example of the rightness of his concerns.

I haven't spoken to my Amish lumberman in years, but I get updates from my friends. All of his children have left the faith and married "English" people. He saw that coming years ago when I last talked to him. The concern he felt would be recognized by any caring parent. I hope and trust they've carried the moral foundations of his faith with them. He's a good egg.

[Selene Gregoire]

4 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

And, so what?  It's her beliefs, her store, her rules.  I don't think she deserves to be flogged for that.

She doesn't. I didn't lose respect for her until she admitted she would "not feel the same about them [customers] if they purchased an item" on the day she observes as her holy day. I do give her credit for admitting she would be petty enough to hold her customers in contempt for not observing something they don't believe in. If she isn't tolerant of other people's beliefs (or non-beliefs), that speaks for itself and reflects badly on her.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

2 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

She doesn't. I didn't lose respect for her until she admitted she would "not feel the same about them [customers] if they purchased an item" on the day she observes as her holy day. I do give her credit for admitting she would be petty enough to hold her customers in contempt for not observing something they don't believe in. If she isn't tolerant of other people's beliefs (or non-beliefs), that speaks for itself and reflects badly on her.

The thing is she observes her holy day by not logging in to Second life and doing business, which is wonderful, I give nothing but respect for that, but the problem is that she expects everyone else to observe her holy day too.

Oh and closed from Friday at sundown till Saturday at sundown, which timezone is that exactly?

[Selene Gregoire]

31 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

The thing is she observes her holy day by not logging in to Second life and doing business, which is wonderful, I give nothing but respect for that, but the problem is that she expects everyone else to observe her holy day too.

There's an echo in here. Only the echo didn't repeat verbatim. 

Meaning, we're both saying the same thing, just in different words. 

 

As for the timezone, most likely it would be her timezone, whichever one it may be. Ideally it should be SLT/PST.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Selene Gregoire

[Love Zhaoying]

18 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Meaning, we're both saying the same thing, just in different words. 

Heaven forbid that y’all ever form a team!

[Ivanova Shostakovich]

   This is simple for me. The store is closed on certain days. It is the owner's wish. I can come back when it's open. I will respect the wishes of another. And in this case, it literally takes no effort on my part.

[Nacy Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Over the years, I've purchased rough lumber for home remodeling projects from an Amish farmer in central Wisconsin, a neighbor of dear friends of mine. For as long as I can remember, people have wondered if the Amish are breaking their vows by using machines, such as gasoline engines, that make use of electricity. Curious about his faith and how he practices it, I've had several talks with him while loading lumber into my trailer. He said that focusing on such detail obscures the intent of his belief that certain technologies fray the fabric of society and should be avoided. He was a thoughtful advocate for his personal ideology.

Growing up I, my friends and diverse neighbors, were taught never to discuss religion or politics with anyone except close friends and family.  And even then to do so very carefully and respectfully.  In an example similar to your own, my husband and I have been involved in a lengthy construction project and have employed a man who is Jehovah's Witness. This is a well known religion that I know nothing about.  Although were are on extremely friendly terms, and he has worked for us on and off for the last 4 or 5 years,  it would strike me as extraordinarily impolite to ask him to be an advocate for his personal ideology.  I'm not incurious.  On the contrary I am very fascinated (and respectful) of  his and other people's religious beliefs. Therefore rely on my own research. It's so easy with the internet.  

As an adult I extend this rule to discussions about sexual orientation, race and personal monetary issues especially with people who I've entered into a business relationship.  To do otherwise put's people at an unfair and uncomfortable disadvantage when you pepper them with questions about things that are very personal.  The Amish gentleman may not have indicated his discomfort, or you may not have picked up on it, but clearly he shouldn't have been put in that position. Often when unthinking folks do venture to ask highly personal questions, and are challenged, they get huffy an declare they are just "interested" it the other person.  They feel they are extending some sort of compliment in their notice, attention and interest.  This however is disingenuous and impertinent.  Your farmer was, after all, a neighbor of a dear friend, not your dear friend.  I'm sure in that "Big Book of Henry Ford" quotes will can find something similar.   😉

Edited February 5, 2019 by Nacy Nightfire
typo

[Luna Bliss]

Sometimes stepping back from spending our time grasping for something to fill our own needs, and instead meditating on a larger picture where our needs are not so paramount (a Sabbath) for a day can help us develop a more loving reality during all the days of the week, to become 'like Jesus'.
Understanding the meaning of 'Sabbath' and desiring to know this state of mind means we are doing more than simply following a set of rules in a religion.

I'd say the world in general needs a Sabbath. We live in an overly-commodified world, a world addicted to progress and extracting every last resource possible from mother Earth, raping her of everything we can in the name of 'progress -- it's leading us to extinction.

[Luna Bliss]

32 minutes ago, Nacy Nightfire said:

disingenuous and impertinent

Yes, the vibes on this thread are not ones of wanting to know another's reality -- they are ones of trying to make the other 'wrong' because they are not the norm, not the same as we are, or causing us some sort of inconvenience. 

[Selene Gregoire]

53 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Heaven forbid that y’all ever form a team!

The only team/side I am on is my own.