Callum Meriman Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 Just now, Tari Landar said: Except no one's hands are actually tied, nor is anyone being held over a barrel. If people fail the read the TOS, that's on them. If they read them and continue on, again, on them. If they read them and don't agree with them, they can choose to not participate, but if they do so, again, on them. Sure, we can choose to give up on 12 years of history, on an estate with multiple regions and a lot of tenants, we can say goodbye to our friends and lovers from far flung countries and we can forget the many tens-of-thousands of USD we have in our inventory. SL is a bit like a drug, when you start the bad parts don't seem so scary (the TOS is ok when you are in a Newb body) after a while it becomes very hard to quit. The TOS is onerous, quite unfair, and would be illegal in my country - but I accept that risk because I really have no choice - just like a druggie. I will hope one day Americans will vote a wise leader in, a wise senate in - and they will enact some consumer protections - like not being able to terminate someone's account without transaperancy or appeal for AFKing. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tari Landar Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 8 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said: Sure, we can choose to give up on 12 years of history, on an estate with multiple regions and a lot of tenants, we can say goodbye to our friends and lovers from far flung countries and we can forget the many tens-of-thousands of USD we have in our inventory. SL is a bit like a drug, when you start the bad parts don't seem so scary (the TOS is ok when you are in a Newb body) after a while it becomes very hard to quit. The TOS is onerous, quite unfair, and would be illegal in my country - but I accept that risk because I really have no choice - just like a druggie. I will hope one day Americans will vote a wise leader in, a wise senate in - and they will enact some consumer protections - like not being able to terminate someone's account without transaperancy or appeal for AFKing. Oh good grief. You're bringing two topics into one, and one of them has nothing at all to do with this, lol. But, yeah, let's blame an entire country for the fact that some companies have very strict rules...heaven forbid we ask that companies actually make responsible choices like not even allowing the illusion of ***play and dealing with it harshly. Btw...there was an appeal process, and it worked in that person's favor, clearly, consumer protection exists Again, no one forces any of us. regardless of how long we have been participating in sl, to be here. Stop with the comparing it to an actual drug addiction crap, that's just crap.. Yes a LOT of us have a lot invested in sl, a lot of years, a lot of work, friends, relationships, established businesses, a lot of money, time...really, the list could go on forever. Just like those that chose to leave when they no longer agreed to the TOS, who also had those very same things invested, and more even at times....we can OPT to not participate. That is *always a choice, a difficult one, no doubt, but a choice all the same. I'm no fan of the US government either, and it's my government....but these molehills are getting bigger and bigger with every post. We're going to need climbing gear soon 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madison Heartsong Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said: Everyone agrees to the TOS before logging in. If you don't like the rules, don't log in. I just want to say that the TOS doesn't only not make it okay if LL behaved wrongly. It also doesn't even make it legally binding. All software, online, offline, whatever, comes with terms of service that basically says I have zero rights and the creator has all the rights. Courts don't accept those in a lot of cases. There are a lot of rights you can't sign away, even if you chose to. Example: If it could be binding, every doctor's office would force every patient to sign something agreeing that no matter what the patient couldn't sue for malpractice. Every doctor would do it, so there'd be no other way to get medical care but to sign it. But courts would never enforce such a contract. There are TOS that courts definitely would enforce-- rules against griefing, sex with underage avatars, etc.. There are others that would be deemed so unfair that no matter what, like a pledge not to sue for malpractice, courts would not uphold them. Everything eventually ends, so whether it's in 3 years or 20 years or 50 years sl will at some point be closed. I hope (even if it's 50 years, in which case I'd likely be long gone from sl, for the sake of those who'd be on then) that LL feels the need to give some notice so people can get some use out of recently bought items, and also allow people to cash out unused Lindens. I hope if they don't do that, they get sued and lose. And if I could change the law, I'd make the law make it clear that any entity that charges for its use has to provide the product/service or refund the money, and that no terms of service could override that. There are reasons in the case of this down time to defend LL (besides the fact it's been a lot better lately), most clearly that from what I've read it's been caused by a malicious third party, not LL screwing up in a big way. I'm all for "Go LL! Defeat the DDos scum!" What gets me worked up is when customers defend ToS that basically say paying customers have no rights, beyond saying it's not only a SL thing but done in almost all software ToS-- meaning one can't blame LL for doing what everyone else does-- not just that they think it's automatically enforceable, but they want it to be. Why does any customer want no rights to what they paid for? Edited February 28, 2018 by Madison531 A word was censored so I fixed it so as not to be (I think), and then added a paragraph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleMe Jewell Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 42 minutes ago, Madison531 said: And if I could change the law, I'd make the law make it clear that any entity that charges for its use has to provide the product/service or refund the money, and that no terms of service could override that. LL isn't charging for the use of SL itself. Just like Comcast doesn't have to issue a credit on my statement for downtime (unless it got extreme), LL isn't going to refund any tier due to downtime. And any other money spent inworld is totally user choice and comes with no guarantees at all. Unless you could prove that the intermittent service cost you thousands of RL dollars, you likely couldn't sue them for any sort of reimbursement of loss. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madison Heartsong Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said: LL isn't charging for the use of SL itself. Just like Comcast doesn't have to issue a credit on my statement for downtime (unless it got extreme), LL isn't going to refund any tier due to downtime. And any other money spent inworld is totally user choice and comes with no guarantees at all. Unless you could prove that the intermittent service cost you thousands of RL dollars, you likely couldn't sue them for any sort of reimbursement of loss. Actually, I've had cable go out, and if it goes out for at least three days (which has only happened twice), I call and demand a credit for the lost days-- and I get it. I don't know what would happen in court for a day or two or three of downtime. I'm more talking about what things ought to be like. Note in your quote my having written "if I could change the law." No matter how a court would rule, very few people would find it worth suing over a day or two or three of downtime. I know I wouldn't regardless of tier. I might be noisy about deserving a refund for lost use if I had a full region, although to be honest I'd probably decide it wasn't worth the trouble even then unless I'd lost weeks of service. Edited to add: Especially with things working better, I've calmed down enough to want to add that I've now been in sl for over 9 months and the last couple of days are the first truly bad stretch I've seen; so if this only happens for a couple of days every 9 months, overall that's solid performance that I can easily live with. Edited February 28, 2018 by Madison531 See "edited to add" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aislin Ceawlin Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 8 hours ago, Solar Legion said: You think this is unstable? The present performance is buttery smooth compared to what it was twelve years ago. This is nothing so calm down. Amen to that!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittyn Fuhr Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 If you compare it to, say, internet, or the cable company, they don't pay you (at least, in my memory), unless it's been out for 24 hours. In the 24 hours, there has been significant up-time. Note...yes, I am very frustrated with this, also. It can lose sales, lose productive work time, and of course, if you only have 1 hour to come on to feed animals, tend fields, exercise, whatever happens that Is time-driven and consumeable...well, sadly, Lindens can't really plan these types of outages around them. I do remember for the first 3 years or so that I was on SL (I joined in 2006). SL had "planned" shutdown time from 12pm - 4pm. *if* you got it back by 7pm...it was an awesome night. There were times that you could not get back on reliably til Friday. You learned on those days, don't plan on serious things on Wednesdays and Thursdays...and crossed your fingers even, on Fridays. and yes....I should have done things...laundry, dishes...are they done? nope. I sat, like others, going "relog...relog...relog..." but I did watch a good movie last night..."Mute" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleMe Jewell Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Madison531 said: Edited to add: Especially with things working better, I've calmed down enough to want to add that I've now been in sl for over 9 months and the last couple of days are the first truly bad stretch I've seen; so if this only happens for a couple of days every 9 months, overall that's solid performance that I can easily live with. Ah yes, things are much better these days than they were years ago. Truly, I haven't seen an intermittent outage like this one in at least a couple of years - that I recall anyway. And a decade ago was really horrid. Edited February 28, 2018 by LittleMe Jewell 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maryanne Solo Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 Oh mai gawd... There is SL income, then there is the real world of e-commerce. The trick is to move from SL income to something real. Puhleeez... get serious Would you like me to calculate how much money I lost by reading this post and send you the bill? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbie Faulds Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 First, when you can't get in, rather than jumping here to complain, check the grid status at https://status.secondlifegrid.net Any problems will be listed there. You can also subscribe to the feed and get notices. Then you'll know what's going on rather than complaining here. At least it usually only takes a couple of hours for problems to resolve. Used to take the whole grid done at 8am SLT and supposed to come back up 4 hours later. It was usually 6 hours. Sims would still go down randomly. They'd usually get it back to working smoothly the following Monday, just in time for the next update. I can remember one year Halloween fell on a Friday. The merchants and club owners screamed and they held off that week. The worst was one was when they took it down and something in the new code really made a mess. The grid was down for a week. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmoe Whitfield Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 I remember the online limit being found around 88,000 people. the grid ground to a halt as services crashed out, people were yelling back then for the same kind of thing "I WANT A REFUND" get real is all I can tell people, but I'm a synic having worked in retail for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aislin Ceawlin Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 7 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said: Sorry, Callum. I'm not really laughing at you, just at the concept that us Americans, as a whole, will ever have better political leaders. The problem is that in the US, holding a political office is very powerful and power corrupts. Those that SHOULD be in office do not want it. Those that WANT it, should not be there. Thus we are screwed - at least until/unless another revolution happens. *sigh* Someone may have said this, as I haven't read further, but the issue is that a majority of the people DID make an intelligent choice, but due to an antiquated, broken system, it didn't matter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase01 Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 10 hours ago, Madison531 said: But people should complain about bad service, and customers shouldn't defend poor service. It puts pressure on the provider to improve. Apparently it has by a great deal compared to many years ago, but people who defend them when they screw up only slow down the progress. If unscheduled service outages were a common occurrence, I would agree; but IMO they aren't. For that, we should be praising LL. It is quite OK to give credit, where credit is due. As frustrating as it may be, it is within reason to expect that service outages may occur periodically for one reason or another. As Alwin pointed out, LL also incurs a financial loss when services are interrupted. Nobody is compensating them either. 6 hours ago, Callum Meriman said: The TOS is onerous, quite unfair, and would be illegal in my country - but I accept that risk because I really have no choice - just like a druggie. The TOS Second Life has is not all that different from what you might see in a video game, or from an Internet service provider as just two examples. Usually they are specific and also ambiguous for a reason. It is to cover a large range of situations in which a provider might choose to deny service. As a business, they have no interest in doing so; unless those using that service are not acting in what the provider might deem good faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 Funny story. Years ago, back before Activision bought out Blizzard, they used to give compensation for server downtime., when WoW was down. And in those early days, it often was. I don't think I've ever seen any other online service do that, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittyn Fuhr Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 I also remember it going down pretty regularly...for some reason I don't remember Saturdays, but by Sundays, it would. Pretty regularly. So...yeah. This was...just a minor aggravation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 15 hours ago, DaleMcRuden said: I think ye should all protest I have lost 2 days INCOME because Linden Labs Can't keep there servers running so I believe that they should compensate me for the income I earn to pay them their tiers and feed my Horses they never fail to take the cash from my account when the 3 month interval comes up I think we deserve a stable platform and reliable log in if they are going to charge us for it So there you have it. It is/was a DDoS attack. Embarrassed now? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Nova Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 The way to stop this is to increase the sanctions on State Sponsored DDOS attacks. The most likely culprit is (if you are American) the CIA, NSA or FBI, (if you are British) GCHQ, if you are Russian (can't remember, used to be the KGB), If you are Chinese (some relative of President Wi)....... It's misgovernments playing childish games folks. Nothing to do with Linden Lab. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixieplumb Flanagan Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 Just now, anna2358 said: The way to stop this is to increase the sanctions on State Sponsored DDOS attacks. The most likely culprit is (if you are American) the CIA, NSA or FBI, (if you are British) GCHQ, if you are Russian (can't remember, used to be the KGB), If you are Chinese (some relative of President Wi)....... It's misgovernments playing childish games folks. Nothing to do with Linden Lab. The KGB is now FSB. ssdd 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 The FBI and the KGB turned FSB DDOS stuff on the DL but IDK what it has to do with SL. AFAIK, anybody can DDOS anything! Yes, it's just SSDD. WTF, man. 1 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixieplumb Flanagan Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 ISWYDT.....and I liked it 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callum Meriman Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 TIL a whole buncha new TLAs 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 2 hours ago, Callum Meriman said: TIL a whole buncha new TLAs Whut? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 3 hours ago, Gadget Portal said: The FBI and the KGB turned FSB DDOS stuff on the DL but IDK what it has to do with SL. AFAIK, anybody can DDOS anything! Yes, it's just SSDD. WTF, man. “AB, cd goldfish!” ”Lmno goldfish..” ”SAR, cmpn?” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 3 hours ago, anna2358 said: The way to stop this is to increase the sanctions on State Sponsored DDOS attacks. The most likely culprit is (if you are American) the CIA, NSA or FBI, (if you are British) GCHQ, if you are Russian (can't remember, used to be the KGB), If you are Chinese (some relative of President Wi)....... It's misgovernments playing childish games folks. Nothing to do with Linden Lab. I had to read between the lines, there. Obviously, a state wouldn’t do DDOS to its own citizens (well, except Chinese maybe). I assume you mean, “they do it to us because we do it to them”? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Nova Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said: I had to read between the lines, there. Obviously, a state wouldn’t do DDOS to its own citizens (well, except Chinese maybe). I assume you mean, “they do it to us because we do it to them”? You think your state wouldn't do it to you? Yes they would. Then they blame the other state. Now you re-elect the perps. Happens every day. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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