Corrections, grammar, spelling etc.

[pennytrated]

Hey there,

I have my steel protective devices on so if you need to bring it I'm ready lol.    In reading many replies to questions that are asked, I'm seeing something very disturbing.  To be blunt...this isn't English 101.  We are not helping by telling them they need to use better grammar etc.  You understood enough to reply.  Many may have English as a second language, so how is correcting them helping their need?

To me its hurtful when you are reaching out for help, and that takes guts to begin with, and get degraded, so why do it?  We don't grade them?  We help. right?

My personal opinion and don't blast me too hard.  Lose the corrections, they feel bad enough.  Focus on the problem and helping them. Again you have no idea who these people are, could be disabled, couldn't have the benefit of the educations we have, or again English is a second language. 

Ok blast me now lol.

 

Penny

 

[Love Zhaoying]

I agree with you to a small extent. I saw a case where someone was making some grammar and spelling mistakes.

The judgment was that they may not have English as their first language, so be sure to get their business info proof-read. Response: English WAS their first language.

That being said: people will take your posts more seriously if your posts have good grammar and spelling. Long run-on sentences with many grammar and spelling errors make many of us just..stop..reading.  It’s nothing personal!

[Love Zhaoying]

Feel free to fill this out and submit it!

[LittleMe Jewell]

It is often easy to distinguish difficulty with the language from plain laziness or not caring or text speak.  Not too mention that much of the time, it is not necessarily about actual grammar, but simply trying to make something readable.  If it is a long post, it really is difficult to read if it is not broken up a bit with some line spacing.  Ditto if the post is just a huge long run-on sentence.  Many of us just won't bother and and then the OP is going to be limited in responses.

I don't both correct various spelling errors or the misc. grammar issues.  However, I will mention the lack of line spacing and/or run-on sentences if they truly make reading the post difficult.  IMO, mentioning such is actually helpful to the OP as it may help more people actually read the post and give replies.

[ThorinII]

In chat, I can ignore grammar and spelling mistakes - but here in the forums, where you (general you) have the time to skim over your reply and edit it if necessary, I'm not as lenient.

That said, English actually IS my second language, so I do occasionally have to look up some word, or do make the occasional grammar mistake. And yet, I always try my best - and expect the same from others. ESPECIALLY when it comes to posts in which they try to sell something, advertize an event, or are asking for help. After all, they want to be understood by the majority here, so (in my opinion) they should do their best, too.

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, pennytrated said:

Hey there,

I have my steel protective devices on so if you need to bring it I'm ready lol.    In reading many replies to questions that are asked, I'm seeing something very disturbing.  To be blunt...this isn't English 101.  We are not helping by telling them they need to use better grammar etc.  You understood enough to reply.  Many may have English as a second language, so how is correcting them helping their need?

To me its hurtful when you are reaching out for help, and that takes guts to begin with, and get degraded, so why do it?  We don't grade them?  We help. right?

My personal opinion and don't blast me too hard.  Lose the corrections, they feel bad enough.  Focus on the problem and helping them. Again you have no idea who these people are, could be disabled, couldn't have the benefit of the educations we have, or again English is a second language. 

Ok blast me now lol.

 

Penny

 

I agree with you in that ideally it's best not to be a grammarNazi because we don't know if the person is doing the best they can. For example, some people are dyslexic or on medication, or didn't have the opportunity for a good education, or perhaps writing is just not their thing because they are hopelessly 'right-brained' (my curse), or perhaps they can't see well, or perhaps their IQ is lacking.....so many problems might be going on that make it hard for them to communicate, and we should not make them feel like they are bad.

But, whatever this shortcoming is makes it take longer for me to understand what they're saying, or with customer support it takes much longer and I have to ask question after question after question. So, if I think the person COULD do better I will get impatient, and even if I don't outwardly become a grammarNazi I sure am thinking like one when I think they could do better (for example, if I think they're just being lazy because writing clearly DOES take effort). And I can also feel impatient if it seems especially difficult to make sense of what they're saying, no matter what the cause.

[Nalytha]

Some folks like to feel bigger than others. Grammar and spelling is an easy way to knock someone down a peg. 

There's a difference between being helpful and being derisive. 

[Pamela Galli]

31 minutes ago, ThorinII said:

In chat, I can ignore grammar and spelling mistakes - but here in the forums, where you (general you) have the time to skim over your reply and edit it if necessary, I'm not as lenient.

That said, English actually IS my second language, so I do occasionally have to look up some word, or do make the occasional grammar mistake. And yet, I always try my best - and expect the same from others. ESPECIALLY when it comes to posts in which they try to sell something, advertize an event, or are asking for help. After all, they want to be understood by the majority here, so (in my opinion) they should do their best, too.

Exactly. It’s about respect for the reader: make your point or request easy for the reader to understand. It doesn’t have to be perfect, just take the time to make it easily intelligible.

And too often when someone misunderstands the gibberish vomited on a page, they are abused. 

I have not noticed much nit picking in this forum, just if something is so mangled as to be unreadable. We generally understand and respect that many here are not native English speakers (although most of the time their English is better than most native English speakers’).

Edited February 4, 2018 by Pamela Galli

[Cindy Evanier]

Many people start with "apologies English is not my first language"  and almost every time I have seen this they will get patient replies from people and even advice to use their native tongue and people will try to translate and help.  

The 25 line posts made up of 2 sentences and no paragraphs or page breaks make it very hard to actually find the point or question the poster has. Then as Pamela says the person who tries to help and misunderstands, through no fault of their own, is abused   I have also seen people who give straight to the point, no nonsense, no hand holding replies abused which irritates me no end.

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, pennytrated said:

Hey there,

I have my steel protective devices on so if you need to bring it I'm ready lol.    In reading many replies to questions that are asked, I'm seeing something very disturbing.  To be blunt...this isn't English 101.  We are not helping by telling them they need to use better grammar etc.  You understood enough to reply.  Many may have English as a second language, so how is correcting them helping their need?

To me its hurtful when you are reaching out for help, and that takes guts to begin with, and get degraded, so why do it?  We don't grade them?  We help. right?

My personal opinion and don't blast me too hard.  Lose the corrections, they feel bad enough.  Focus on the problem and helping them. Again you have no idea who these people are, could be disabled, couldn't have the benefit of the educations we have, or again English is a second language. 

Ok blast me now lol.

 

Penny

 

Most of the posts I've seen that get their grammar criticized aren't questions asking for help; if they're questions at all they tend to be closer to "why r u all so stoopid."

[Luna Bliss]

23 minutes ago, Nalytha said:

Some folks like to feel bigger than others. Grammar and spelling is an easy way to knock someone down a peg. 

There's a difference between being helpful and being derisive. 

So true, and I have noticed that those who get picked on due to grammar on a forum are usually not forum regulars, so friendship plays a part in it. We tend to give our friends more leeway.

[Pixieplumb Flanagan]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I agree with you to a small extent. I saw a case where someone was making some grammar and spelling mistakes.

The judgment was that they may not have English as their first language, so be sure to get their business info proof-read. Response: English WAS their first language.

That being said: people will take your posts more seriously if your posts have good grammar and spelling. Long run-on sentences with many grammar and spelling errors make many of us just..stop..reading.  It’s nothing personal!

I think that was I.   It wasn't a 'judgement' that English might not be their first language;  it was a question, politely put because they were asking for suggestions about starting a new business, and correct spelling and grammar, as others have pointed out in this thread, do make a difference to how professional a business is perceived to be.  In the general run of the forums, when people are talking about various SL matters I would never correct anyone's spelling or grammar, and in the specific thread under discussion I didn't correct the spellings or grammar, I just asked a question.  The member's name also might suggest that they may not be a native speaker of English, however that seems not to be the case.

Picking on anyone for their language skills is rude; and if someone asks for help with it then any help should be offered without judgement.  I would not want to be considered rude or unhelpful here.  ( A little snarky at times, perhaps; my excuse is a very objectionable Tory government getting right on my *****. )

 

[Callum Meriman]

39 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

I have not noticed much nit picking in this forum, just if something is so mangled as to be unreadable. We generally understand and respect that many here are not native English speakers (although most of the time their English is better than most native English speakers’).

This is true, this forum is very - if not incredibly - forgiving of speakers who have no English, speakers who have English as a second language, and those who are just dyslexic (like I sometimes think I am). Maybe one of the most forgiving forums I have seen. I've never seen someone say "This is an American site, speak American or GTFO" as would happen elsewhere. 

I think this wider tolerance comes down to the fact that in world we actually do have a lot of friends from other countries, people who might need to use a translator device, or struggle with English.

There are some notable exceptions though - one is where the original poster will come in ranting hard - and more often then not in a huge, unbroken, single paragraphed, wall of text. Another cases where we pile on are people who make 3 or four rapid fire posts all on the same ranty subject.

Andererseits habe ich einen deutschen Freund, der immer mein schlechtes Deutsch korrigiert.

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Pixieplumb Flanagan said:

It wasn't a 'judgement' that English might not be their first language;  it was a question, politely put because they were asking for suggestions about starting a new business, and correct spelling and grammar, as others have pointed out in this thread, do make a difference to how professional a business is perceived to be. 

Yes..and I also assumed English may not be their first language. I didn’t mean judging in the bad sense, more “assuming/guessing”. When they replied that English WAS their first language tbh MY heart sank a little. Because, if they couldn’t do better in posing a question to us, how will they look to their customers? Not professional! I totally agreed with your advice no matter their language level- why wouldn’t everyone have their copy proofread?

[Pixieplumb Flanagan]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Yes..and I also assumed English may not be their first language. I didn’t mean judging in the bad sense, more “assuming/guessing”. When they replied that English WAS their first language tbh MY heart sank a little. Because, if they couldn’t do better in posing a question to us, how will they look to their customers? Not professional! I totally agreed with your advice no matter their language level- why wouldn’t everyone have their copy proofread?

I think their choice of name was a contributing factor

[LittleMe Jewell]

2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

The judgment was that they may not have English as their first language, so be sure to get their business info proof-read. Response: English WAS their first language.

 

42 minutes ago, Pixieplumb Flanagan said:

I think that was I.   It wasn't a 'judgement' that English might not be their first language;  it was a question, politely put because they were asking for suggestions about starting a new business, and correct spelling and grammar, as others have pointed out in this thread, do make a difference to how professional a business is perceived to be.  In the general run of the forums, when people are talking about various SL matters I would never correct anyone's spelling or grammar, and in the specific thread under discussion I didn't correct the spellings or grammar, I just asked a question.  The member's name also might suggest that they may not be a native speaker of English, however that seems not to be the case.

 

Based on another thread in the forums and the posts within, I'm pretty sure this thread was not really created because of the post you might be thining of.

[Tari Landar]

I'm legally blind, and without the use of my TTS, I make LOADS of mistakes (see sig). I don't particularly care if someone judges, corrects, responds to, etc.. my mistakes. Most of the time, I can laugh it off, either because it was a hilarious typo (I have a weird sense of humor), or because, sometimes it makes a sentence/thought make little to no sense.  If I find myself getting angry, upset, hurt, whatever, by someone correcting me...it's time to step away from the keyboard. If I REALLY want to express that it wasn't intentional, I can so , easily, by saying "DOH, y bad..legally blind..it happens), or if English was not my first language "Sorry, my English isn't the best". 

I communicate (typographically) with people in roughly five different languages on a daily basis. I'm not very good with most of them, though I do my best. Obviously, English is my first language, Spanish would be my next strongest, and the other three I am really rusty but can make do. When they correct me for getting something wrong, I don't get angry, I don't get upset, it really doesn't bother me. I mean, surely, I cannot learn without being judged to some extent, now can I? Sometimes the judgments come across harshly, sometimes they don't. Eh...no skin off my nose.

I get judged for making long posts here too, and I'm perfectly a-ok with that. All my long winded-ness at least has spaces for breathing now and then  

[Madelaine McMasters]

I'm with LittleMe and Theresa on this. I think (and I hope I'm right) that it's not terribly difficult to determine if a poster's poor grammar is due to laziness, indifference, or ignorance born of arrogance (arrogance born of ignorance?). In those cases, I usually don't respond at all. If a poster is trolling or just plain mean, there's something more significant than grammar to criticize. Most poorly worded posts are excusably so. When they are hard to understand, I'll take my best shot at it, ask for clarification, or offer it, etc.

In Tari's case, I just give up and let her run, wondering how the hell someone who's legally blind can post those walls of text without falling off the edge or getting exhausted.

She's a wonder, she is.

;-).

Edited February 5, 2018 by Madelaine McMasters

[Tari Landar]

12 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

In Tari's case, I just give up and let her run, wondering how the hell someone who's legally blind can post those walls of text without falling off the edge or getting exhausted.

She's a wonder, she is.

;-).

Its easier on us all when people just give up and let me run

If you ever watched me type, you'd wonder how in the hell I don't make more typos. I never once look at the keyboard when I type out posts, and only occasionally do when I type out corrections  I also type super fast, like, super super duper fast. 

I know precisely where every key on my keyboard is and where my hands need to sit to hit them....99, ok more like 90% of the time. Though I once told someone I own a braille monitor and that's how I manage. He was dead certain I was serious too.  It took me years of practice, starting with a typewriter that had been slightly modified to help me find the keys properly without ever looking when I was like 8-ish, or so. 

[Nalytha]

I’m in school for court reporting ... machine shorthand. We learn to write a minimum of 225 words per minute at 95% accuracy, although in the real world there are times when people speak faster. We don’t use a keyboard..  it’s a special machine and a completely different language. So we hear English, translate it into steno and write really fast all at the same time. 

I am constantly awed by a fully blind student who is almost done with the program.. a program that only about 5% of most seeing students complete. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by Nalytha

[Chase01]

Penny what prompted you to write this? I don't see that kind of behavior too often around here.

 

 

 

[LittleMe Jewell]

.

Edited February 5, 2018 by LittleMe Jewell

[Madelaine McMasters]

24 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

.

:

[Callum Meriman]

I have to say, Tari's posts impress me a lot. Not only are they easy to read, she leaves my spelling and grammar for dead, that's for sure.

Heh, actually most people leave my spelling and grammar for dead, but I have a valid excuse... have you ever tried typing with claws? Nope, us neko normally just use the keyboard as a nice comfortable, often warm from our pet Human's touch, bed.

[Paul Hexem]

wut