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Race Play


BilliJo Aldrin
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46 minutes ago, janetosilio said:

Show me where I said I had a problem with interracial relationships?

I’m pointing out that no, there’s nothing wrong with being another race than you are in second life, no there’s nothing wrong with being in an interracial relationship in rl or sl, but when you start talking about depicting a race as sub human rapists you kind of have to understand how SOME people would be upset by that.

I’m also pointing out, no being called a redneck is not the same thing as being depicted as a subhuman rapist. Even if there are sims where there are trailer parks or redneck themed, you could argue being a redneck is a point of pride for some people. So the two things are not analogous.

im also pointing out, no, rap music does not glorify raping and brutalizing women. Since you don’t listen to it, can’t name a song that you are claiming those sims are patterned after, you threw out a strawman. Those kind of sims are their own thing and it’s a much deeper issue than “It’s just some dudes patterning their roleplay after those mysogynistic rappers!”

See there are just certain things that are inappropriate. The same reason you don’t walk around with a KKK outfit while you sim hop, the same reason you aren’t allowed to stab someone you don’t like is the same reason you don’t depict a race as sub human rapists.

So yeah, I get it. It might be fun for SOME people. I’m pointing out that it’s also going to make some people upset. It should be fairly clear why it’s upsetting to SOME people. When you’re crying about “Mah freedomz” you really sound like you don’t have empathy in this situation.

Also, while I’m waiting on that rap song that glorifies raping and abusing women (I can save you the trouble there aren’t any), I’ll also wait for you to find me a black man that says “Gee know what I enjoy doing as a hobby? Raping white women! Yaaay” since you live around so many black people.

wow this was easy. Say thank you

http://www.latina.com/entertainment/music/rick-ross-isnt-alone-25-most-offensive-rap-songs-ever-about-women

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35 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Thank you for proving my point. None of those songs were about brutalizing and raping white women. 

We really should leave that strawman alone. Because now it’s starting to look like you do engage in race play.

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Just now, janetosilio said:

Thank you for proving my point. None of those songs were about brutalizing and raping white women. 

We really should leave that strawman alone. Because now it’s starting to look like you do engage in race play.

Really? You asked for songs about abusing women, I provided a link, and now I engage in race play? Now its starting to look like you are a troll

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8 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

How about just raping and abusing women - why does it have to be white women?

Just google 'rap rape abuse women'

The thing is,  Janetosilio has a thing for black guys, more specifically black ghetto rapper guys, so of course shes gonna defend them. So Ironically, she engages in race play. Nothing like the pot calling the kettle black

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22 minutes ago, janetosilio said:

 

1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

 

Thank you for proving my point. None of those songs were about brutalizing and raping white women. 

We really should leave that strawman alone. Because now it’s starting to look like you do engage in race play.

You obviously did not actually read the lyrics to all of them.  Here is just one from that example:

Song 'One Less B!tch' by N.W.A:
...
The b!tch tried to gag me
So, I had to kill her
...
Yo, I tied her to the bed
I was thinking the worst but yo I had to let my n!ggas f**k her first yeah
Loaded up the 44 yo
Then I straight smoked the ho'
...
'Bout his b!tch I was f**kin' I had to tossed her
And put you slick, some n!gga never forget
A dead b!tch can't tell a n!gga sh!t
One less b!tch you gotta worry about
She's outta here and that's how it turned out
...
But I had better plans to give her the blues
Like dumpin' her in the river with sea net shoes
...
And tied the b!tch to the Muthaf**kin' chair
Now there's one less b!tch I gotta worry about
...

 

I have no doubt that if I continue reading lyrics from all of the songs they list, that I will find more examples, but then I actually am reading the lyrics.

 

And while Wiki is not always absolute gospel, this article does contain a lot of accurate information:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny_in_rap_music

 

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Let’s back up and let me give you a little flow chart.

So OP starts out with a convoluted story about someone accusing her of race play. And asks what is it? (Hurr Hurr) and is it evil. Now if OP doesn’t want a genuine answer or really doesn’t care. Which looks like is the case. Why ask the question? No one is judging you even if you do, except the person that originally did. All I did was explain why.

She gets a few replies, mainly explaining what it is, someone explains why the person might’ve jumped on them.

Then there’s a whole rant about rednecks and butthurt. What does that have to do with race play? So I point out those are not the same things and I point out that race play has sims devoted to it and that it’s pretty unflattering to one of those races. Again op you pretended to not know what it is and asked was it evil. It’s ok if you do it....but yes, yes it is.

Then I get mansplained that people do it because of rap culture? I contend it doesn’t but ok name me a song that does the same thing as those sims, that is raping and abusing white women. And it’s ok for people to do it that because rappers do it? Ummm ok....let’s not go down that rabbit hole. I knew somebody would google offensive rap lyrics, because it’s a straw man fallacy. I can google multiple genres of music and pull out a list of offensive lyrics. Here’s one with mostly not rap music: http://flavorwire.com/489278/25-of-musics-most-obnoxiously-misogynist-songs  

Which is why I said it’s a straw man fallacy. So it’s pointless to try to point out rap lyrics to me. It’s also pointless to try to point out that these sims are patterned after rappers....like that justifies it?

The original point was yeah, people can be offended when a certain race of men are presented as sub human, sex crazed rapists. And you really shouldn’t have to make a mental leap as to why. 

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1 hour ago, janetosilio said:

 

The original point was yeah, people can be offended when a certain race of men are presented as sub human, sex crazed rapists. And you really shouldn’t have to make a mental leap as to why. 

You know what? i f**k black guys, but not the sub human sex crazed rapist ones.

So thank you for showing me I don't engage in race play

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2 hours ago, janetosilio said:

Which is why I said it’s a straw man fallacy. So it’s pointless to try to point out rap lyrics to me. It’s also pointless to try to point out that these sims are patterned after rappers....like that justifies it?

 

Where, in ANY of this discussion, was someone trying to "justify" it? Explaining why something is perceived, or even actually is, a certain way, is not justifying it, there is a huge difference between those two words.  You feel butthurt because you're taking offense where no one actually put any at all. You're taking offense to a topic that you *think* applies to you, for whatever reason, I do not know and won't even pretend to know.

As someone that is simply reading this entire thread, and has done so multiple times now...I have no horse in this...but I CAN say that yes, just about anything and everything in sl will absolutely offend someone, somewhere. Why? Because humans are the most finicky species on the friggen planet, and butthurt comes so easily. That's really all there is to it.

Now if you don't want to see why rap culture has changed int he manner is has over the years to try and get RID of the stereotypes often contained therein(just as country music has even changed to try and eliminate a lot of the stereotypes contained therein), that is on you. It is not a strawman fallacy, you're using that term incorrectly, in fact, I'm not even certain you know what the term means or how to apply it. It would ONLY be a strawman fallacy, if there were no truth to it. There is, however, just as there is with a lot of other musical genres. They nearly all have their own stereotypes, and some of the artists-and yes whether or not that term applies to them all I will use it-do nothing BUT perpetuate those stereotypes. Rap culture is absolutely no different, regardless of your own involvement(or not, I don't know you, and won't pretend to, it's a general) in said culture. The fact is, that rap culture, and that genre, has been under a mountain of scrutiny, probably more so than most other genres, BECAUSE of the issues. Whether we, as individuals see these as issues, as stereotypes, as negative...or even existing at all, is irrelevant. We're anecdotal evidence, at best, as are our own experiences. 

You're going 'round and 'round in circles here, but in the end, you're not making your position any clearer, nor are you doing anything to dissuade people from following the information available at their own fingertips regarding this kind of culture, and common stereotypes. You think it doesn't apply, but you cannot explain why. You're using terms that don't apply here. Is all rap culture bad? In my opinion, no..but, like yours, it's only one opinion..and rather pointless to attempt to use it as proof of something, or even proof against something, because, it's anecdotal. It's not a strawman fallacy to state that rap culture has countless negative stereotypes surrounding it, and often perpetuated within it. Does that mean anyone and everyone that enjoys this genre, or culture, fits those stereotypes? No....and not a single darn person has said they do.

 

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7 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

Those sims you mention while not to my taste merely depict a stereotype promoted by rap artists, artists that are mostly black it has to be said. Not saying its right to do merely saying that it not necessarily a depiction coming from white people stereotyping a different race.

The sims don't say this is all blacks they merely portray that aspect

 

 

1 hour ago, Tari Landar said:

Where, in ANY of this discussion, was someone trying to "justify" it? Explaining why something is perceived, or even actually is, a certain way, is not justifying it, there is a huge difference between those two words.  You feel butthurt because you're taking offense where no one actually put any at all. You're taking offense to a topic that you *think* applies to you, for whatever reason, I do not know and won't even pretend to know.

 

 

There's your attempt at justification. It was a justification because he went on to attempt to justify it even further. Then he goes on to claim he doesn't listen to Rap, so how would he know other people's motivation for making an account like that.

 

1 hour ago, Tari Landar said:

It is not a strawman fallacy, you're using that term incorrectly, in fact, I'm not even certain you know what the term means or how to apply it. 

 

 

"A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent."

So I didn't bring up rap music, and that was an attempt to refute my argument that depicting a race as a bunch of sex crazed neanderthals is in the very least questionable. Which was a response to race play being compared to rednecks? That's not a straw man? I think it is. Trying to make this about rap music when it originally wasn't IS a strawman. 

1 hour ago, Tari Landar said:

 

Now if you don't want to see why rap culture has changed int he manner is has over the years to try and get RID of the stereotypes often contained therein(just as country music has even changed to try and eliminate a lot of the stereotypes contained therein), that is on you. It is not a strawman fallacy, you're using that term incorrectly, in fact, I'm not even certain you know what the term means or how to apply it. It would ONLY be a strawman fallacy, if there were no truth to it. There is, however, just as there is with a lot of other musical genres. They nearly all have their own stereotypes, and some of the artists-and yes whether or not that term applies to them all I will use it-do nothing BUT perpetuate those stereotypes. Rap culture is absolutely no different, regardless of your own involvement(or not, I don't know you, and won't pretend to, it's a general) in said culture. The fact is, that rap culture, and that genre, has been under a mountain of scrutiny, probably more so than most other genres, BECAUSE of the issues. Whether we, as individuals see these as issues, as stereotypes, as negative...or even existing at all, is irrelevant. We're anecdotal evidence, at best, as are our own experiences. 

 

 

See here's the thing, the original post had nothing to do with Rap music. That might be someone who has an alt like that's justification for doing it, but that doesn't make it right. How do you know there's truth to it? That might be your perception of it, but your perception is wrong. That's why I keep saying, let's not go there(Strawman). I don't even like Rap music, so I think its funny you think I'm upset about someone attacking Rap music(Strawman). The issue simply isn't about Rap music at all. It's about people depicting another group of people in a certain way that could offend them. It's about someone being surprised that someone else saw their profile and decided they didn't want to associate with them because there was race play on it.

 

1 hour ago, Tari Landar said:

You're going 'round and 'round in circles here, but in the end, you're not making your position any clearer, nor are you doing anything to dissuade people from following the information available at their own fingertips regarding this kind of culture, and common stereotypes. You think it doesn't apply, but you cannot explain why. You're using terms that don't apply here. Is all rap culture bad? In my opinion, no..but, like yours, it's only one opinion..and rather pointless to attempt to use it as proof of something, or even proof against something, because, it's anecdotal. It's not a strawman fallacy to state that rap culture has countless negative stereotypes surrounding it, and often perpetuated within it. Does that mean anyone and everyone that enjoys this genre, or culture, fits those stereotypes? No....and not a single darn person has said they do.

 

I think everyone knows what the OP is talking about at this point. You're right, I probably wouldn't dissuade someone who thinks it's ok to race play to not race play. I did explain multiple times and I'll try it another way for you, because it's not about Rap music. Personally, I don't care what you or anybody else thinks about Rap music, because like I said before I can pull up a list of any popular genre of music and give you the same proof. That still doesn't explain why some people decide to do something like that. There's a much deeper issue there and it's not "I blame Rap music."

So you're hanging out on your favorite sim. Someone TP's in with a KKK outfit on. Someone says something to them about it. Most likely someone would express distaste for it. Would the person expressing distaste be wrong? Ok let me change that around. Someone TP's in and they look normal, but when you look at their profile it has KKK stuff in it. Someone says something about it. Most likely they would be expressing distaste for it. Would the person expressing distaste be wrong? Let me try this another way. Someone TP's in with an avi that looks like Adolf Hitler.....you see where I'm going with this? If you don't just say so and I'll let it go. My point is people would see race play as the same thing.

Let me try this another way. Let's say you are a person of color in RL. You meet someone on SL they seem nice, you strike up a conversation with them. Later you look at their profile, and you see something in there that depicts you as.....anything less than. Anything, use your imagination. Do you not see how someone would be offended by that and might say something like, I don't know.....I don't associate with people who do....THAT? Am I making my position more clear? I don't think my position has anything to do with Rap music (Strawman). If it does, let me know.

Now, I get it's SL and people do things that might be viewed as offensive to someone else. Sure, I get that. But again....that doesn't make it right and the person doing it shouldn't be surprised that SOMEONE is offended by it. I also get that Linden Labs really doesn't prohibit race play, so what are you going to do? But it was brought to a discussion forum to be discussed. At least I think it was, so that's what I'm doing discussing it.  So my point still stands.

  

 

Edited by janetosilio
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2 hours ago, janetosilio said:

 

There's your attempt at justification. It was a justification because he went on to attempt to justify it even further. Then he goes on to claim he doesn't listen to Rap, so how would he know other people's motivation for making an account like that.

 

I'm ignoring the rest, because it really has little to do with the discussion, and people don't like it so much when I derail. But....I will say it again, explaining something, does not, in any way, justify it.  I can explain why certain people think or do certain things, and not be *justifying it*. There really is a huge difference between the two. 

Try having to write a thesis on some of the topics you've discussed in your reply, from the side of those that most are against..(ie, from the point of someone in the KKK, etc.) I can assure you, not a single thesis or paper I have ever written was in justification of the actions which they cover..they are *explanations*, and not at all the same thing.

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Generally, no one forces anyone to participate in a role play sim, to spend money building an avatar that fits “character” or so spend time developing a character in RP. Participation is voluntary and Story is what the players are there to create (except the ones looking for sex).

Most people get their perception of other parts of the world from Hollywood and most RP sims are evolved from those same sources.

You can blame the sim, or you can blame Diverse and Tolerant Hollywood for perpetuating negative stereotypes......

Why else is it big news when a movie or TV show presents a “strong woman”, an upwardly mobile minority character or an LGBT character who isn’t emotionally damaged or a sexual predator ?

RL has plenty of positive examples of those people, it’s only -news- in Hollywood - when they present one; which is the shaper of how many perceive the world.

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8 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

I'm ignoring the rest, because it really has little to do with the discussion

Then why am I even discussing it with you? What I said has everything to do with the discussion. If you ignore it, then you’re choosing not to see it. This isn’t the thesis forum, it’s a discussion forum. Said that too, but you’re choosing to ignore it.

If I make an analogy about someone in SL wearing a KKK outfit (you didn’t ignore what I said after all) that has nothing to do with a thesis. An analogy is an analogy, not a thesis.

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1 minute ago, janetosilio said:

Then why am I even discussing it with you? What I said has everything to do with the discussion. If you ignore it, then you’re choosing not to see it. This isn’t the thesis forum, it’s a discussion forum. Said that too, but you’re choosing to ignore it.

If I make an analogy about the someone in SL wearing a KKK outfit (you didn’t ignore what I said after all) that has nothing to do with a thesis. An analogy is an analogy, not a thesis.

Throughout this thread you have consistently seen justification where none was present and consistently used but a single example of race play as your go to when showing just how offended you are by it.

Stereotypes exist for many reasons and some are reinforced by various media - these two short statements are simple, hard fact. The reasons given the most weight as well as the media responsible for the most reinforcement of any particular stereotype is a bit more fluid.

Race play is not limited to a specific ethnicity nor for that matter is it limited solely to negative stereotypes or even to stereotypes concerning humans in general (though it could be argued that fictional races cannot be stereotyped/do not qualify due to their very nature).

It is not my cup of tea but I at least took the time to do a bit more research and thinking than a simple Google search and hitting a few links. The fact of the matter is that in an environment like SL, you're not nearly as limited as some couple engaging in any particular form of consensual play would be in real life.

Further complicating matters is part of the very nature of Second Life and online environments in general: Outside of social media sites where the use of factual information about the user is strictly enforced, you really have no idea whatsoever who is actually behind the words/visual representations on the screen in front of you. You have their word and whatever weight you decide to place on such to go by ... and that is all.

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50 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Throughout this thread you have consistently seen justification where none was present and consistently used but a single example of race play as your go to when showing just how offended you are by it.

Stereotypes exist for many reasons and some are reinforced by various media - these two short statements are simple, hard fact. The reasons given the most weight as well as the media responsible for the most reinforcement of any particular stereotype is a bit more fluid.

Race play is not limited to a specific ethnicity nor for that matter is it limited solely to negative stereotypes or even to stereotypes concerning humans in general (though it could be argued that fictional races cannot be stereotyped/do not qualify due to their very nature).

It is not my cup of tea but I at least took the time to do a bit more research and thinking than a simple Google search and hitting a few links. The fact of the matter is that in an environment like SL, you're not nearly as limited as some couple engaging in any particular form of consensual play would be in real life.

Further complicating matters is part of the very nature of Second Life and online environments in general: Outside of social media sites where the use of factual information about the user is strictly enforced, you really have no idea whatsoever who is actually behind the words/visual representations on the screen in front of you. You have their word and whatever weight you decide to place on such to go by ... and that is all.

The first thing you have to ask yourself is she engaging in race play. I’ll wait for someone to say she’s not. And yeah, I can google too: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/raceplay-101-my-introduction-into-the-world-of-racist_us_595b8fb7e4b0326c0a8d130a

The reason I used that example is because a 30 second glance at the op’s profile tells me that is what she was talking about and she does engage in it. Nobody’s judging her though.

Could I talk about another kind? Sure, but it still wouldn’t take away from my point. She pretended to not know what it was; I guess for the sake of discussion. She also asked was it evil. If she’s engaging in a particular type of race play, it’s still race play isn’t it?

So here we are discussing it. My point was and still is: Race play could be offensive to some people. Yes, offensive to the point where it is viewed as ‘evil’.

Talking about stereotypes or rap music or a doctoral thesis still doesn’t take away that point. It really doesn’t matter which type of race play I choose to discuss, because somebody somewhere is going to have a problem with race play of any type and it shouldn’t be surprising.

There are no blurred lines; it is what it is.

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1 hour ago, janetosilio said:

The first thing you have to ask yourself is she engaging in race play. I’ll wait for someone to say she’s not. 

The reason I used that example is because a 30 second glance at the op’s profile tells me that is what she was talking about and she does engage in it. Nobody’s judging her though.

Actually I don't have to ask myself anything of the sort as quite frankly it is none of my business nor is it truly any of yours. Billi asked a question and got several answers. Your opinion is that she pretended to not know what race play is/entails and that it shall remain - your opinion.

You stated your point and your opinion on the matter very early on and from there did nothing more than go round and round with several users over something that pretty much no one disagreed with.

There's no point in engaging with you any further on this: The entire point went right over your head and you seem rather driven to be offended on the behalf of others (or some equally off putting nonsense, really I don't care).

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3 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Actually I don't have to ask myself anything of the sort as quite frankly it is none of my business nor is it truly any of yours. Billi asked a question and got several answers. Your opinion is that she pretended to not know what race play is/entails and that it shall remain - your opinion.

There's no point in engaging with you any further on this: The entire point went right over your head and you seem rather driven to be offended on the behalf of others (or some equally off putting nonsense, really I don't care).

It’s my opinion that you really didn’t have a point. So feel free to not engage me any further. I already know what race play is, so I don’t need you to explain that to me. A simple google search only confirms what I said. I already know how media influences perceptions, so I don’t need that from you either.

Again I restated my point which at this point is about the fifth time I restated it in this thread. But since your enlightened way of thinking is so above me, well that’s fine I can live with that and we can leave it at that.

I’ll say this so people can stop saying I’m offended too: I can care less who race plays or does anything else on SL. Having kinks doesn’t make you better than someone because they disagree with them. Defending someone’s kinks doesn’t bother me either, because I wasn’t attacking them. While while you might think you’re being some kind of free thinking, enlightened defender of libertine values. Your line of thought is actually the opposite of what you’re claiming to be. All I did was point out that it’s a very inciteful kink. It’s really that simple.

 

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21 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

Yes I see it as those sims are portraying the rap culture style. Do they claim to represent all black people or is that just what you are reading into it?

I have yet to see a RL rapper that looks like these huge musclebound monsters. max height, max muscle on a mesh muscle head av, max size on the junk.. yeah, RL rappers look like that. 

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3 hours ago, janetosilio said:

Then why am I even discussing it with you? What I said has everything to do with the discussion. If you ignore it, then you’re choosing not to see it. This isn’t the thesis forum, it’s a discussion forum. Said that too, but you’re choosing to ignore it.

If I make an analogy about someone in SL wearing a KKK outfit (you didn’t ignore what I said after all) that has nothing to do with a thesis. An analogy is an analogy, not a thesis.

I'm guessing you simply like to argue for arguing sake, and no other reason.

I never said it has anything to do with a thesis, once again, I was giving an explanation. In this instance, it was why your use of the word justify is not applicable where you have utilized it, anywhere. You really should look up "what is the difference between an explanation and a justification", it's an interesting topic (and you don't even have to be writing a thesis to understand it..gasp..you could simply desire to utilize it in a discussion, properly). One sided discussions, or rather, discussions where one side chooses to not even read anything the other says, but rather sticks their tongue out all nanny nanny boo boo, are rarely ever my cup of tea. Enjoy arg...errr..."discussing"...and have a nice day :) 

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1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

I have yet to see a RL rapper that looks like these huge musclebound monsters. max height, max muscle on a mesh muscle head av, max size on the junk.. yeah, RL rappers look like that. 

Thank you. But that’s his opinion and his rationale for people doing it and nobody should say anything about it because it’s SL and that’s their right to do so.

Also you forgot little peanut head.

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1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

I have yet to see a RL rapper that looks like these huge musclebound monsters. max height, max muscle on a mesh muscle head av, max size on the junk.. yeah, RL rappers look like that. 

Thank you. But that’s his opinion and his rationale for people doing it and nobody should say anything about it because it’s SL and that’s their right to do so.

Also you forgot little peanut head.

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12 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

I'm ignoring the rest

 

36 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

I'm guessing you simply like to argue for arguing sake, and no other reason.

One sided discussions, or rather, discussions where one side chooses to not even read anything the other says, but rather sticks their tongue out all nanny nanny boo boo

Um, that’s what you tried to do to me. But you have a nice day too.

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In all honestly, i had to google raceplay as i really didn't know what it referred to.

Is it,

  1. portraying a race you are not?
  2. Restricting your sexual partners to a single race?
  3. Creating an avatar for the sake of RP that is a different race than your  RL?

It could have been any of these things. I find iit interesting that most here think it is specifically geared towards blacks. If I choose to only sleep with Asians, is that raceplay? 

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