problem with rezzing items inside a house

[Kotelle]

Sometimes it happens that I have a strange issue when rezzing items in my house on the land I own. It happens only in one of the rooms, when I try to rezz something, I get the message that the owner of the land doesn't allow that (but I am the owner). But in the other room and outside of the house it works perfectly fine, no message, no issue.

Does anyone know what may cause that one room is cursed and doesn't let me rezz anything inside? Can I fix that somehow? 

 

[HarrisonMcKenzie]

I bet you're trying to rez on mesh. For some reason, there's a bug that prevents rezzing properly on mesh. A good work around is to rez on a prim. You can texture a flattened cube into a rug if you do a lot of rezzing in your house.

[Kotelle]

You are right, it works like that. Thanks! It wouldn't bother me if it wasn't only one room but problem solved now!

[ChinRey]

On 22.9.2017 at 5:20 PM, Kotelle said:

Does anyone know what may cause that one room is cursed and doesn't let me rezz anything inside? Can I fix that somehow?

I have to correct Harrison a little bit. The rezzing bug is not inherent with mesh as such, it's a flaw for srufaces with incomplete physics shapes, that is some sculpts and meshes with faulty physics models. Simply put, what happens is that with an incomplete physics shape the software is unable to determine exactly where the new object should be rezzed.

It took a while to understand what happened since LL never published any usable mesh documentation but once we had figured it out, the problem turned out to be very easy to fix and by now any decent mesh maker will know how to make mesh surfaces you can rez on. If you still come across meshes you can't rez on, they'rer either old or made by some unskilled builder.

For sculpt surfaces the only solution is the one Harrison suggested.

[Kotelle]

thanks!

Well the creator seems to be skilled, I have couple of buildings made by the same person and there is no problem like that. Also the building seems to be not THAT old (I think it was a 2016 event gacha item) so maybe it is just a mistake / accident. Anyway thank you for solution.

[Prokofy Neva]

2 hours ago, ChinRey said:

I have to correct Harrison a little bit. The rezzing bug is not inherent with mesh as such, it's a flaw for srufaces with incomplete physics shapes, that is some sculpts and meshes with faulty physics models. Simply put, what happens is that with an incomplete physics shape the software is unable to determine exactly where the new object should be rezzed.

It took a while to understand what happened since LL never published any usable mesh documentation but once we had figured it out, the problem turned out to be very easy to fix and by now any decent mesh maker will know how to make mesh surfaces you can rez on. If you still come across meshes you can't rez on, they'rer either old or made by some unskilled builder.

For sculpt surfaces the only solution is the one Harrison suggested.

I have to wonder about this.

That is, I don't doubt what you say is true, but I think a) it must be more complicated than this  b) there are WAY more designers who aren't "decent" than you imagine 3) it really is about mesh and not even sculpties.

Why? Because as I've mentioned before, every day I literally put out hundreds of MESH items in rentals on OTHER mesh items, taking some up, putting them down, copies or unique items, as people want furnished or not furnished or want some furniture but not others or take something from the warehouse or not.

So I have TONS AND TONS of experience with this. Do you? I don't just rez a house occasionally, I daily rez multiple houses and numerous pieces of furniture, and also handle customer complaints like this one here about people who have the group tag correctly, but can't get things to rez. I even keep "cutting boards" in the kitchens of all the houses, which inside contain multiple sizes of "rugs" or "tile floors" or just the cutting board that people can use as their "rezzer" as this problem is a HUGE PLAGUE.

These items are from all the TOP DESIGNERS and as recently as THIS HOUR from THE LATEST EVENT. I mean CONSTANTLY, from THE MAJORITY of designers, the newest, the latest, the best. I test it constantly to see if it is going away yet because I want to be able to handle customer complaints which are NUMEROUS. Every single one of my rentals now has a card in it saying "MESH IS A *****" to explain this chronic problem to them so it doesn't bite. People especially hate that is says "The Owner of this Group Does Not Allow" -- because in fact the Owner HAS allowed and they feel abused and defrauded. So I am eager to get this problem to go away, as you should be as a rentals agent, instead of acting like it's an education problem that people don't "realize" it's "only a few old ones". That's simply not true. It is inherent in mesh, as long as mesh keeps doing this. Faulty models? When thousands of designers including the very top designers all have this problem, you have to wonder: is the model flawed? Or is the documentation missing or flawed itself? And can the creator of this platform instead of thousands of designers fix this, by changing not merely documentation but how this works?

In fact, it is very rare to find a house maker or designer who DOES NOT have this problem and another one, I call "the rockies", whereby the avatar bobs up or rocks up and down as he walks through a house. Very annoying. Since some houses do this, some don't , I contacted a maker of one that doesn't. She says it is a problem with mesh uploading that not everyone realizes they need to fix. Well, they sure don't. The ones with this problem don't answer me. I don't know if this is the SAME problem you mention, but it is hugely widespread and again, with the very ne plus ultra items. I think it's a different problem because less houses have the rockies than the mesh rezzing issue.

Since you keep making this point every time it comes up and I keep pointing out to you that it's not true -- the problem remains widespread, chronic, huge, and involving all the top designers, what I hope you can do is point to a web site that explains this problem in detail and how to fix it. And I will start sending dozens of links to those top designers and see if I get a response from them. Either they will say "Eureka!" or not.

These designers are not the ones who hear about this complaint. We are. 

 

[HarrisonMcKenzie]

58 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I have to wonder about this.

That is, I don't doubt what you say is true, but I think a) it must be more complicated than this  b) there are WAY more designers who aren't "decent" than you imagine 3) it really is about mesh and not even sculpties.

*trimmed*

That's been my experience as well. Every mesh house and building I've used has had this problem, and the majority have all been major creators, so I agree that it's more wide spread that "a simple fix" and "bad creators."

I guess my question then would be what is this fix specifically so that at least I can work to improve what I make? Is it just making sure the floor has a real physics shape, or is it something else?

[MoiraKathleen]

This is a fairly common occurrence for me as well, even with newer houses I've purchased from creators that specialize in building houses. Now, the first thing I do when I start furnishing the house is to try rezzing a rug - if I get that message, or if it rezzes some distance under the floor, I rezz it on the ground outside, then move it into the room and use it to rezz everything else on.  I'm especially careful when rezzing no-copy items, though I have never lost one so far - they've always reappeared in my inventory after relogging. 

Edited September 24, 2017 by moirakathleen
missing word

[ChinRey]

Yes

 

11 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

These items are from all the TOP DESIGNERS and as recently as THIS HOUR from THE LATEST EVENT.

I think "designers" is the key word here. You can be a good designer and still have no clue whatsoever about the technical aspects of mesh making.

Unfortunately, the technical quality of mesh doesn't matter much to the sales figures. You don't see the lag or faulty physics and/or LoD models in an MP or blog picture. You only see that once you've rezzed the item on your land and even then the effect a single item has on its own may be quite subtle and it's not always clear which item causes the problems.

 

11 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

In fact, it is very rare to find a house maker or designer who DOES NOT have this problem and another one, I call "the rockies", whereby the avatar bobs up or rocks up and down as he walks through a house. Very annoying. Since some houses do this, some don't , I contacted a maker of one that doesn't. She says it is a problem with mesh uploading that not everyone realizes they need to fix. Well, they sure don't. The ones with this problem don't answer me. I don't know if this is the SAME problem you mention

It is a related problem.

 

11 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

but it is hugely widespread and again, with the very ne plus ultra items.

I'm not going to mention names of course but there are many "makers" who have managed to market themeselves successfully as top notch SL mesh makers despite the fact that they lack even the most basic technical knowledge and skills.

 

11 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Since you keep making this point every time it comes up and I keep pointing out to you that it's not true -- the problem remains widespread, chronic, huge, and involving all the top designers, what I hope you can do is point to a web site that explains this problem in detail and how to fix it.

I've posted fairly easy practical instructions how to deal with the issue at least twice on this very forum, last time as a reply to one of your posts. I have lost count how many times Aquila and Drongle have posted their more detailed explanations how and why it happens.

I'm not going to spend time finding those posts again. Maybe somebody else will?

Edited September 24, 2017 by ChinRey
Correcting some of the typos

[ChinRey]

13 hours ago, Kotelle said:

thanks!

Well the creator seems to be skilled, I have couple of buildings made by the same person and there is no problem like that. Also the building seems to be not THAT old (I think it was a 2016 event gacha item) so maybe it is just a mistake / accident.

You may well be right. In that case, you may want to contact the maker. Everybody can make msitakes and all serious cotnent creators are only happy to get feedback about them.

[Nova Convair]

Eat ***** - millions of flies can't be wrong.

That's how SL works. I've seen many creations of top designers that lack quite some usability and SL-mechanics. The problem is that most designers have no clue about SL. They may be even good designers, but since they are clueless about SL they fail at the many obstacles that SL has to offer

Well, a house, the designers obviously don't even test them, or they don't care. You can't rez or can't walk in a straight line? It's easier to blame LL and many residents will jump in and say "yes yes, it's LL" - so why bother in learning how to get the build properly into SL? It sells fine without extra efforts, so it's all ok.

[Anna Nova]

2 hours ago, ChinRey said:

I'm not going to spend time finding those posts again. Maybe somebody else will?

 

[Whirly Fizzle]

A detailed explanation about what causes the problem can be found here: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-40694

[Klytyna]

6 hours ago, Nova Convair said:

Eat ***** - millions of flies can't be wrong.

That's how SL works. I've seen many creations of top designers that lack quite some usability and SL-mechanics. The problem is that most designers have no clue about SL. They may be even good designers, but since they are clueless about SL they fail at the many obstacles that SL has to offer

Well, a house, the designers obviously don't even test them, or they don't care. You can't rez or can't walk in a straight line? It's easier to blame LL and many residents will jump in and say "yes yes, it's LL" - so why bother in learning how to get the build properly into SL? It sells fine without extra efforts, so it's all ok.

A big part of the problem is that many people assume 'top sl designer/brand" means...

1. Owned by an Ancient Lastnamer permanoob who thinks their iq = sl age in weeks and who is too stubborn to unlearn the mistakes they learned with sculpts and prims, when working with mesh

2. Large MP stock, 80% of which is old primmy crap, old sculpty crap or old proto-mesh crap

3. Reassuringly extortionate prices!

"Everyone knows you cant rez or walk properly on mesh" ... So they don't bother learning how to do the physics hitboxes properly, as they will always set the mesh phantom and add an invisible prim (that will always use a laggy alpha blend texture).

Of course, this means that then their new products, that are just like their old products, get used to justify the fallacious claim that "Everyone knows you cant rez or walk properly on mesh"

This is why I get so annoyed when I see people doing that whole 

"I'm ancient and ignorant, and have masses of experience rezzing badly made overpriced rubbish therefore the techies who tell me whats wrong are of course... wrong!"

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

A LOT of these "top designers" are coming from some other 3D environment and uploading stuff from there to here then putting a price tag on it.

If you peruse releases on daz3d.com or renderosity.com you will start to see things that look "suspiciously familiar" - in buildings, clothing, and even at least one mesh body brand...

Some of the things here might be from the same designers as there, some might have been "liberated"...

- But either way, building for there, which is an art community, and here, a gaming platform, is radically different. Over there you never have to thing about walking around inside your build - you just think about how you would place figures for art composition or animation - but all of that is controlled by the artist. There is no need to consider "is this wall or floor solid", or even "is the air inside this space NOT solid"?

 

Edited September 24, 2017 by Pussycat Catnap

[Prokofy Neva]

On 9/24/2017 at 5:34 AM, ChinRey said:

I've posted fairly easy practical instructions how to deal with the issue at least twice on this very forum, last time as a reply to one of your posts. I have lost count how many times Aquila and Drongle have posted their more detailed explanations how and why it happens.

I'm not going to spend time finding those posts again. Maybe somebody else will?

I guess it's not important to you then as a landlord or creator, but it is to others. Help links have to be posted zillions of times to make a difference, you can't pout after one post.

And just to be sure, what is needed are not instructions for users (laying down a prim, relogging to get the lost item to return) but instructions to makers.

 

[Klytyna]

2 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

but instructions to makers.

Unfortunately, the 'makers' of the foolishly named "top brands" are often the very sort of people who will proudly ignore those instructions, especially if it means having to go back and REMAKE everything they have uploaded to their MP Store over the last 5 years, and then send out 'free updates for same to all the customers who bought the broken crud.

Easier to simply say... 

"I am a top designer, who are YOU to tell me I made stuff wrong, I've been in SL since way way before your time, what can you possibly know!"

And that's why so many old old stores with big big names make such low low quality items at such high high prices...

And get away with it...
 

[ChinRey]

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I guess it's not important to you then as a landlord or creator, but it is to others. Help links have to be posted zillions of times to make a difference, you can't pout after one post.

And just to be sure, what is needed are not instructions for users (laying down a prim, relogging to get the lost item to return) but instructions to makers.

@anna2358 has been kind enough to provide a link to one of the threads already so that's been sorted out.

Beyond that, don't tell me, tell the people who are responsible. I've spent countless hours doing the research and giving helpful advice here and in-world, essentially helping my competitors outcompete me. I've spent countless unpaid hours doing the job the Lindens are suppsoed to be paid to do. All of this time has been time I should have spent working on my own builds and my own marketing.

Many people do thank me and some (including you, Prokofy) are equally happy to share their own. I always appreciate that and I hope I always manage to show my gratitude. Most people just take advantage of the situation though. Linden Lab certainly does. They keep using all their official and "not officially official" to promote old friends and new marketing bluffs against the competent and considerate content creators.

I don't know how much I have achieved in Second Life - others have to be the judge of that - but it has all been despite of, not because of, Linden Lab. I haven't been in Second Life long enough that I "deserve" to be here and I don't have any friends on the inside. So the only way for me to get any help from LL beyond the most basic, is to file a support case and then keep pushing it, refusing to close it until they surrender in exhaustion. Needless to say, I only do that when I'm in a desperate situation and there is no other solution.

Yes, Prokofy, I agree with you. That's exactly how it should be done. But it's not my job and not my responsibility. I don't get paid for it and I do not owe Linden Lab, the SL builders or the SL comunity at large anything whatsoever - they owe me.

Edited September 26, 2017 by ChinRey

[Chic Aeon]

37 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

@anna2358 has been kind enough to provide a link to one of the threads already so that's been sorted out.

Beyond that, don't tell me, tell the people who are responsible. I've spent countless hours doing the research and giving helpful advice here and in-world, essentially helping my competitors outcompete me. I've spent countless unpaid hours doing the job the Lindens are suppsoed to be paid to do. All of this time has been time I should have spent working on my own builds and my own marketing.

Many people do thank me and some (including you, Prokofy) are equally happy to share their own. I always appreciate that and I hope I always manage to show my gratitude. Most people just take advantage of the situation though. Linden Lab certainly does. They keep using all their official and "not officially official" to promote old friends and new marketing bluffs against the competent and considerate content creators.

I don't know how much I have achieved in Second Life - others have to be the judge of that - but it has all been despite of, not because of, Linden Lab. I haven't been in Second Life long enough that I "deserve" to be here and I don't have any friends on the inside. So the only way for me to get any help from LL beyond the most basic, is to file a support case and then keep pushing it, refusing to close it until they surrender in exhaustion. Needless to say, I only do that when I'm in a desperate situation and there is no other solution.

Yes, Prokofy, I agree with you. That's exactly how it should be done. But it's not my job and not my responsibility. I don't get paid for it and I do not owe Linden Lab, the SL builders or the SL comunity at large anything whatsoever - they owe me.

 

This comes up often and I see that this isn't the newest of threads either but I just wanted to chime in (yet again). 

There are plenty of "top name" house builders who do not understand house physics at all. There are plenty that do not test to see if correct physics is in play before putting their new building on the market. Some happily FIX things when bloggers (usually the first to receive the item) or customers complain -- mostly about not being able to walk through the door. 

AND we ALL (even those that understand house physics) make mistakes. Forgetting to change the door frame to PRIM is my main error.   There are some designers that excel in textures and never appear to walk into the buildings that they make. So they look great but are pretty much unusable. There are some who never set their LOD below 4 -- even to test for others.

There are plenty who simply don't care because after all it is only pixels and the price of a cup of coffee or less. 

BUYERS need to demo as much as they can -- with houses as well as with mesh bodies *wink*.  While buyers won't be able to test the rez on the floor issue (which is actually pretty easy to fix anyway) they can certainly walk through the building and see if they can navigate (size and scale are important too). 

But these issues are NOT INHERENT IN ALL MESH BUILDINGS (caps intended). 

It is important to remember that "top name" doesn't mean "well crafted" and not all the items from award winners are worthy of awards.  Within our environment -- in this case Second Life -- we have rules that make the world work. We don't get to choose those rules and sometimes it would be great if the rule makers redid things :D, but we DO need to work around those rules to make competent items that actually work.  Well some of us feel the need anyway. 

 

[ChinRey]

25 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

It is important to remember that "top name" doesn't mean "well crafted" and not all the items from award winners are worthy of awards.

That reminds me of an experience I had a year or three ago. I was a member of Kismet's group at that time and got a group message that she had been nominated for the best texture maker prize at one of those prestigious yearly award thingies. Well, I went to the website and it turned out she was actually the only texture maker nominated, the others on the list were all just reseller of basic synthetic freebies you can find all over the web - or get for free at Makersmart. I have no idea who won, I really hope it was Kismet and she did get my vote of course. But in any case, considering all the really good and serious texture makers we have in SL, the list of nominees spoke volumes about the quality conciousness of the average SL user.

Edited September 26, 2017 by ChinRey