"Child" Avis and is it only me who is uncomfortable?

[Dresden Ceriano]

---

Lesyonn wrote:

Hello Magnus,

You came for advice and you received both unbiased and forced opinion.

---

Wrong, he specifically asked for opinions, not advice... and that's exactly what he got.  Also, I'd love to know what you mean by the term "forced opinion"... either you've got an opinion or you don't.  How can anyone's opinion be considered forced?

...Dres

[So Whimsy]

---

Magnus Brody wrote:

Please quote from any of my posts where I said I AR'd them, or did you just jump to that conclusion?

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This was the line that strongly suggested that you AR'ed the person since you pointed out that in your time you have only filed 4 AR's, which made it sound that this case was your fourth.

---

Magnus Brody wrote:

I have been in sl for 8 years and

this is only my 4th AR

, therefore it was considered and not reactionary.  If I were reactionary, I'd have filed a few more of them by now.

---

It's that specific wording that gave various people this impression. Quoted from the first page.

 

 

 

[Magnus Brody]

Aye, tis true I am photogenically challenged!

[Magnus Brody]

True, that is clumsily written, so I can see anyone would consider I meant his as my 4th, when in fact I meant I had only filed 4 in 8 years, and I was considered and not reactionary to file a 5th.

[Lesyonn]

Advice, opinions, same thing on a public forum. That's my view. You can certainly try and force your opinion or point of view on another. You don't realize that? I would hazard a guess that you, like anyone else has been in a situation like that. Forced, meaning they hung his actions and their -opinions- went back and forth not as a discussion:

"I think it's very poor form that you were this blunt about your feelings, going out of your way to tell us how child avi's make you sick. A gentleman would have politely declined and left it at that.

Again, to me, the conversation seems entirely innocent, but to an already biased person I can see what it might look like, whether that's the truth or not.

What rubs me entirely the wrong way is, that you filed an AR when you have not a single fact at hand. Filing a false AR, or an AR on a whim without solid proof can get YOU punished, did you know that with your eight years of SL experience? Perhaps next time you'll take a step back and not let your feelings cloud your judgment."

-

"you blew it, that person didnt do anything to be punished, its just sad when sim owners just ban people that agree with their rules and decide to support the sim, just because the owners like the rush of a power trip.
thats why many sims dont make it."

-

"What she did was not rolplaying. Roleplaying is something else entirely. Merely being a child avatar, or furry, or demon or whatsoever in SL does not mean they are roleplaying at all. I myself am a Neko most of the time. Do I roleplay? Within Second Life hardly ever."

^ no one can tell by that text if the child av was rp'ing. I have seen more bad rp in SL where emotes and punctuation is not used. Only the child avi knows if it wwas rp.

-

"

"Over the years, I've found time and time again that the only people who hate or are creeped out/sickened by Child Avis are those who participate deeply in the adult culture of SL and consider everything on SL to be adult - no matter the theme or area they live in/run.

To them, since everything has an underlying sexual nature, they can't possible conceive any reason why an Adult like themselves would like to play a child, and their mind immediately goes to "they must be a pedophile".

"I guess my issue is a lot of older guys seem to figure if a young girl is talking to them for any reason, she must then be after his junk."

^ That made me laugh. Just because many of us don't care to interact with a child or teen avi, doe not mean is it sriven by a sexual reason

-

Just a few quotes throughout the thread. My bolded tex to the opnions/advice. I again don't care to interact with a child avie, I believe they have a right to be here as we all do, but they should not be something that others try and force their views on why they are here or how to deal with them. I think Magnus was very courteous as the one poster pointed out after some of the harsh opinions he received.

edited for my apologies with typos. I am typing from a phone and it is difficult to see the text once it scrolls.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

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Syn Anatine wrote:

Filing a false AR, or an AR on a whim without solid proof can get YOU punished, did you know that with your eight years of SL experience? Perhaps next time you'll take a step back and not let your feelings cloud your judgment.

---

Unless you're saying you once AR-d someone for what LL considered no good reason (which I doubt), I really don't see how you can know what LL do or don't do about ARs they consider spurious.

Certainly I've never heard back from LL about what they've thought about any of the few ARs I've ever submitted.

[Magnus Brody]

It's been an interesting 24 hours.  Indeed I did want opinions, not just on my actions, but some discussion on child avatars in general.

In regard to some of the more considered opinions on my actions, I listened and agreed, and have since apologised to the avatar concerned for jumping to conclusions.  I said to her the reasons I jumped to those conclusions (her very quick leap from hello to want to do something later) but apologised nevertheless.  She has agreed there was room for misunderstanding her approach and has accepted my apology, and invitation back to the sim.

In regard to the merely personal comments, amongst which in such a short period of time there has been:

A comment to indicate I'm one of those ban hammering sim owners who enjoys the power this gives them.  Absolutely, I'm so power mad and so enjoy these events, I really save them up so I can gain max enjoyment.  In 5 years I can remember every single one of the 8 banned avatars on our sims' ban list and their bannings in every detail.  That's right, 8.  If I tell you the worst thing about banning anyone is I can't remember how to do it, I can honestly say it's not just senility.

Direct comments that as I felt a little uncomfortable around child avatars I was the weird one, or creepy, I say directly back that there is so much implied by these comments, you should be ashamed of yourselves for making them so casually.  There was certainly an inference, which others commented upon, that I had underlying paedofile tendencies at worst, or certainly presumed all child avatars to be such.  Additionally it was commented that I had a problem with rl children in general.  

All round these comments were unnecessary in large part, quite cruel in others and hugely misinformed conjecture in whole - exactly what I was accused of, in making my original post.

The debate over what was role playing and what wasn't, was educational, thank-you, but ultimately not of much interest to me; I'm just me on sl.  The comments around that which cause us to feel freaked out, were also educational and much more interesting.

Highlight of the day was the post delivered in such certain terms proving that I was clearly an arch pervert, hanging around the adult areas of sl, as all those a little uncomfortable with child avatars fitted this personality type.  No research or proof was offered to back this up, but it was delivered with such confident assumption that it wouldn't be challenged, it did make me actually LOL.

I was also mocked for being neurotic in an attempt at some irony, which backfires for two main reasons, one being I did not paint the avatar concerned to be neurotic in any way, so I've no idea where this thought came from, and the other being that if British men are just a little neurotic, paranoid and feel some guilt by gender association presently, it will be because they agree and at the same time are horrified and terrified of the backlash to the widely reported, daily and unending, details of high public profile abuse cases which are neverendingly broadcast in the UK at the moment.  Terrified in case they are ever falsely accused, or approached by a 13yo for example.

Many of the abusers involved are my generation's most trusted childrens' television personalities and not all of them fit the "yeah, I always knew there was something weird about him" type.  One or two are hugely surprising, so the mood in the UK is "OMG!  If he can do it, like anyone, anyone...."

So, in light of this, would a man who states his age as nearing 50 on his profile including a pic to prove he's no spring chicken (thanks Madelaine!), be a little jumpy when a 13yo asks after two words of introduction if he'd like to do something later?  I can only give my opinion - damned right I was.  Yes I jumped to conclusion, but if it were rl, am I going to hang around until the cops appear and I try to explain, to misquote an old joke, "and that your Honour, is how the young woman ended up in my hotel bedroom"?  No, I'm not.

Again thanks for the considered opinions posted here, and many thanks to the many who privately messaged me and indicated that nervousness about the intentions of SOME (not all) but some child avatars makes them a little nervous of all of them.  That's a great pity, but it has a very current parallel irl at the moment and it means that men capable of doing a lot of good for children, by working with them in a voluntary capacity, and very far removed from those who would do them harm, are no longer volunteering in the same numbers to help charities connected with children.

A very few evil men have stigmatised those good men who would give children the time of day, but are now too frightened of conclusions being jumped to, just as I did in the very opposite.

[Madelaine McMasters]

---

Magnus Brody wrote:

he's no spring chicken (thanks Madelaine!)

---

You're welcome, Magnus!

 

If it makes you feel any better, we both look like people I find dreamy...

 

[Dillon Levenque]

Oooh. He does look a little like Stan, Maddy!

Magnus, I haven't commented because I felt everyone else covered it. Count me as one who thinks you might have over-reacted (while admitting your assessment might have been correct all along). Either way, I don't see your behavior as excessive—there was no name-calling (on either side) nor any accusations hurled—and of course it was certainly within your rights as a resident of SL.

Oddly enough I once posted, a very long time ago, a question tangentially related to yours and the most common denominator in all the responses was that I had not shown enough patience. It continues to be a virtue of which I am in short supply.

However, since Maddy has begun a derailing operation (she is second only to the mentor of Pancho Villa—Phil Deakins—in that regard) I shall take it right off into that especially risky section where they never really got the grade built right.

 

 

Edited for inclusivity

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

I hope Magnus feels as good about the direction this is going as we do...

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Madelaine McMasters wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

I'm reminded of something I believe it was Pep who said it, "The moment you sign up for Second Life you lie."

We could change that to say, "The moment you sign up for Second Life you begin to Role Play."

---

"Q

uod fere totus mundus exerceat histrionem

 (because almost the whole world are actors)"

- Petronius (27-66AD)

"

For what else is the life of man but a kind of play in which men in various costumes perform until the director motions them offstage?"

- Erasmus (1466-1536)

"

All the world's a stage,

And all the men and women merely players.

They have their exits and their entrances,

And one man in his time plays many parts

"

- William Shakespeare (1564-1616)

The author of your quote was a bit late to the game and may have been unaware that appearing to misunderstand it makes one look naive. Second Life is simply another wing on the stage.

I believe that neither lying nor role-play are necessarily, or even often, bad things.

---

Those men may have been late to the game also:

"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they

were

naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."

 

Personally I would maintain, "While all lieing is role playing, not all roleplaying is lieing."

---

We run the risk of miring ourselves in semantics if we continue, but both lying and role playing are things we all do, and are often necessary and helpful. Intent surely colors their use but, even if we can discern it, we're not out of the woods. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I've paid good money to be deceived, and will do it again.

I've paid good money to avoid being deceived, and will do it again.

I'm comfortable with the knowledge that my money probably could have been better spent.

On the delivering end, I've deceived both myself and others. I've often enjoyed it and believe others have as well.

Unfortunately, it has not always gone well.

Live and learn?

;-).

[Dillon Levenque]

This can't end well.

[Phil Deakins]

Oh, for goodness sakes. You replied to a post of mine, saying that I was wrong. I showed you why I wasn't wrong at all, and pointed out that you were mistaken. Then you came up with something about me disliking you because I jump on your posts. I tell you that it isn't true. It was you who jumped on my post, and you've been doing it ever since in this thread. Now the post that I'm replying to starts out with:-

"Here you go again making up all kinds of ijmagined conduct of people based on their avatar choice.

[dogs] peeing on things? [dogs] barking?"

That's all I needed to read of your post. It was a waste of your time writing the rest of it because it didn't get read. Nobody who is not trying to provoke conflict would write what I've just quoted. So now I do have something against you that I didn't have before. I now see you as a trouble-maker, and I will treat you as such in the future. If that was your aim, it was successful.

[Phil Deakins]

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Lesyonn wrote:

Advice, opinions, same thing on a public forum. 

---

Sorry, but that's simply not true. Advice and opinions are different no matter where they are. Public forums are no different to anywhere else. If a peson asks for opinions s/he will get opinions. They are not "forced" upon the person. They are requested by the person.

I think you got a bit mixed up with the meanings of a couple of words

[Phil Deakins]

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

However, since Maddy has begun a derailing operation 

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HEY! Maddy is not the one who began a derailing operation, and she cannot take any credit for it. Derailing occured with the "roleplaying" sidetrack long before Maddy even got steam up. So credit where it's due, if you please, and praise Freya and someone else whose name escapes me at the moment (not me). I'm watching you very carefully, Dillon, so be very careful 

[Freya Mokusei]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

and praise Freya and someone else whose name escapes me at the moment (not me)

---

Glad to help. I've no idea what was goin' on in here while I was travelling, but I'm hardly surprised either.

[CheriColette]

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KarenMichelle Lane wrote:

.......I made a decision long ago to accept the avatar's I see "as  Presented". .......

 

 

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I think this is good advice Karen.  Best way to deal with the unknown (age factor this time).

Things still might have gone 'wrong'  Magnus if the situation changed or got more involved or less innocent but as the conversation stood you could have just said not interested (in a nice way of course) and moved on.

Im guessing your emotions got in the way and you did over react..... maybe rightfully so, you probably will never know.

 

 

 

 

[CheriColette]

Ps...I didnt get to last page before I posted.

Im reading now about your apology Magnus . Good for you. A magnanimous  gesture. You are well named

[Lesyonn]

I am sorry too. You feel one way and I another. Neither one of us put the meanings behind words we use, many dictionaries, many meanings. Still just an opinion. I don't know where you live, but people do force their opinions on others, you do realize that is something people try and do with the words they use and repeated replies. In Rl they do it also physically. It happens on the internet and of course in RL. There are agressive people in the world.

I think that it's great the OP took all the replies and came to a comfortable conclusion. I'm good on the use of the words. Thanks.

[Phil Deakins]

I live in the real world, so now you know 

Yes, people do try to push their opinions on others, although 'force' is too strong a word for what people try to do. We try to push our opinions. We can't really force them. In this case, the OP asked for opinions so they were given, not pushed. Those who said that the OP was creepy simply did what he asked and gave their opinions, that's all. The OP evaluated everything that was said and drew his conclusions, which is perfect. In fact, imo, he went over and above when he apologised to her. I wouldn't have done because, rightly or wrongly, I drew my conclusion about what the 13 year old actually meant.

I don't think there was anything wrong with people finding the OP to be a bit creepy himself when it comes to child avatars because it was an opinion that was asked for. Personally, I didn't think he was creepy just because I'm comfortable with child avatars. I can't get into anyone else's mind to find out why they think the way they do, so I accept that different people think differently to me. Some people think that being uncomfortable around child avatars is a bit creepy. I don't, but the opinion is fine.

Let me remind you what the OP actually asked. It's in the Title of the thread, and is repeated in every post. He asked, "Child" avis and is it only me who is uncomfortable? And his very first words in the post were, I'd be grateful for your opinions. He asked for opinions so, if a few people reply by saying words to the effect of, There are others, but those who feel uncomfortable are creepy, therefore you must be creepy for feeling uncomforatble, then it's fine because he asked for that opinion. You can't fault the opinions when they were asked for. I don't share that opinion but that doesn't make it any less valid as an opinion that was asked for.

There were one or two posts that seemed to take it a bit too far, but only one or two. The OP himself didn't complain about any posts. He answered some points that were made, but he didn't cry "foul" about them.

Advice is something completely different no matter where you live or what dictionary you use.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I live in the real world.

---

What?!

Didn't you tell me you were once a musician?

[Perrie Juran]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

---

---

We run the risk of miring ourselves in semantics if we continue......

---

We do well to choose our Mires carefully.

[Celestiall Nightfire]

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

---

Amie Kaestner wrote:

but people in this thread seem to be pretending that SL isn't inhabited by bad people. 

 

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Some of choose to live in fear (

and vote Republican).

Some of us don't.

Where are all these bad people?

On its 'less ideal end' SL has a number of people that annoy me. A number I disagree with. And some I fnd awefully bland.

But bad people?

The idea that the internet is full of 'dangerous scary OTHER people' is a bit outdated. Its full of the same people as RL.

And frankly, most of those are not bad. Weird and different sometimes, sure. But not bad.

 

---

Let's see...a week or so back...you made a nasty crack about Republicans, and here you're doing it again.  Are you capable of leaving prejudices, bias and hatreds out of your comments here on the SL forum Pussycat?

I'm curious.  As you seem to want other people to do so, yet I've noticed, you don't set the example.

BTW, this is the crux of what this thread is about.  Prejudices being expressed.  Constantly expressed.

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Some of choose to live in fear (

and vote Republican).

Some of us don't.

 

Where are all these bad people?

---

Let's see...a week or so back...you made a nasty crack about Republicans, and here you're doing it again.  Are you capable of leaving prejudices, bias and hatreds out of your comments here on the SL forum Pussycat?

I'm curious.  As you seem to want other people to do so, yet I've noticed, you don't set the example.

BTW, this is the crux of what this thread is about.  Prejudices being expressed. 

Constantly

expressed.

---

Prejudice is judging before you know how something acts and thinks, based merely on what it is.

As such, there is no such thing as prejudice against an ideology. Ideolocial biases are not the same as biases against what people are.

Some oppose me here for what I say, how I say it, what my opinions are. I may disagree with them quite strongly, but that's my and their prerogative.

Only a very few have held bias against me for my race (RL or virtual), ethnicity, avatar choice, sexuality, or even religion (which IS an ideology but seen as an exception in modern wester civilization). Most of those people have long since been banned from the forums as I was not their only target.

Politics is in the realm of idea and opinion. Not in the realm of 'status'. Its part of 'who' rather than 'what'.

 

You should learn to distinguish between these two, as I gather you seriously dislike me, which is mutual, because we have violently opposing political ideologies. We live in a system which is in fact setup for the express purpose of us fighting each other and judging each other on that ground; as is the nature of any system that allows political freedom.

You could express that a lot better if you stopped confusing it with prejudice and bias.

 

[Phil Deakins]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

I live in the real world.

---

What?!

Didn't you tell me you were once a musician?

---

lol. I did - and I was. But I didn't say where I used to live. I said where I live, which implicilty mean now