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Magnus Brody

"Child" Avis and is it only me who is uncomfortable?

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The ban may have been a bit excessive, but I share your sentiments concerning everything else that you said. 

Kid avatars - regardless of who is behind them - creep me out, too. I want nothing to do with them. As you said, I wouldn't 'hang out' or 'have a chat' with a kid in RL, why would I do it here? It's beyond my comfort zone and I don't care who is offended by that fact. I would also question any 'grown' person who claims to have anything in common with a kid - especially if they were my own. 

I don't have teenaged friends in RL and my teenagers don't have 30-40-50+something yo friends in RL. Some things are acceptable, some things are not and what is and what isn't will vary greatly, depending on who you ask. For me - this is unacceptable.

People who are on the pro-side of kid avatars always hurl accusations at those on the anti-side that the disdain comes from some deeply rooted desire to engage in pedophilia and the possibility that they just won't be able to 'resist the urge' with kids around. To those people, I say get a grip. It has nothing to do with harboring pedophilia, but everything to do with ME being a GROWN WOMAN that chooses to spend my time in the company of other GROWN people that I share common interests with - or at very least, the same birth decade - with. If I wanted to hang out with kids, I can log off at the time of my choosing and hang out with my own. 

Sure, people are free to be whatever they want to be in SL - free will, their right, all that good stuff. But their right to be whatever they want to be in SL is no greater than my right to enjoy a kid-free SL. People on the kid avatar bandwagon are always moaning about the lack of acceptance they encounter in SL, holding tightly to the claim it's their right to be who they want to be and do what they want to do and how DARE anyone prejudge them.

Guess what, friends? It works both ways. 

We don't HAVE to like you.

We don't HAVE to accept you.

We don't HAVE to interact with you in any form.

And you are free and more than welcome to return the favor, as far as 'this' grown woman is concerned.

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My, what a friendly fellow. When you chose to post that conversation here, I bet you assumed it would be the person roleplaying a young teenage girl that would come off looking like the unstable neurotic.

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Freya Mokusei wrote:


The important bit:-

People react weirdly to things that pretend to be human children, this is not new information. The exchange ended entirely predictably.
Some people in Second Life have learnt to ease this concern
, but please don't pretend that acceptance is the
normal
reaction,
or that there's any similarity between this situation and a real human child
. That's just projecting, and probably a little wishful thinking.

What reactions like yours do is punish normal responses. It's not helpful to do this by framing it as "maybe your problem is with real things", because it's both confrontational and inaccurate. The only result will be that people walk away assuming you're delusional or combative - they won't learn anything from you because you're tackling the wrong end of the problem. You'd do better teaching acceptance of the
difference
, not punishing the initial gut reaction when confronted with the difference. Acceptance of child avatars will always be a
learned
response. Your distortion of the issue will cause more confusion and arguing of semantics down the line.

I hope this helps clarify.

This is stated so categorically that I assume you have some sort of sociological or scientific evidence to support it, rather than its just being a personal opinion. I'd be interested in seeing this evidence, especially since it would seem to condradict things like the popularity of animated films with childlike characters voiced and written by adults, even among adult audiences.

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Many thanks for all your responses.  I posted to see if I was being over-reactionary, and on balance I could have dealt with the situation a little more politely.

Firstly, I don't have a problem with children irl, I am a happy godfather to a few and get on very well with several friend's children.  I even have one of my own.  One reply here hit the nail on the head, if my 13yo friend's daughter asked me to play xbox, I would, but if a stranger in the street had the same conversation with me I certainly wouldn't and certainly not after "Hello, are you from the UK, wanna come play xbox?"

This avi arrived on my sim and was there for several minutes and responded to no greetings in chat.  Then I got an IM with the conversation I pasted.  Her profile indicated that she should be spoken to as a 13yo child and I should have been happy to have politely ended any conversation but for her suggestion that we do something later, which came after Hello and asking if I was from the UK.

As the only man in the room at the time, I did feel singled out, as she had ignored everyone else.  The fact that her profile contained a rl pic of a young girl, who I did not believe to be over 18, further concerned me.

What with the UK news currently ringing with abuse scandals, many men are somewhat neurotic/paranoid about such things.

I told her politely I waas not comfortable with her profile, and I now realise I should perhaps have said something more like, you are welcome to stay, but I don't wish to follow the request in your profile, I am not comfortable role-playing with you as a 13yo.

Some replies indicate, I have AR'd her, their writers should recheck my two previous posts, nowhere do I say this.

So, on balance I could have been more polite, I don't have a problem with child avatars as such, but this one, when both the conversation and other factors (like profile rl pic, sl description asking that she be treated like a 13yo, me being the only person she spoke to, etc) are taken into account, definitely did concern me.

In future however, I'll take some of the advice here.

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I didn't realise this was something anyone would doubt, but okay.

The Most Vulnerable Garner the Most Empathy

Wikipedia - Uncanny Valley - for a twist, see L'Enfant Exterieur (I'm unable to review the content of these two links)

This stuff goes on and on, I'm only posting links to studies that I have interest in discussing. Children (including young animals) get treated differently because they're children. 'Cheating' this favour (ala Cuckooing or supplanting young) tends to go very poorly. Human studies are obviously hard to find because it's not very ethical.

As for your film example, I don't really see how it applies. You might have to be more specific, or more likely conduct your own research. I've got work to do, and I'm not a child psychologist. This issue rates near the bottom of my radar, I have no inclination to deal with child avatars.

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Syn Anatine wrote:

What she did was not rolplaying. Roleplaying is something else entirely. Merely being a child avatar, or furry, or demon or whatsoever in SL does not mean they are roleplaying at all. I myself am a Neko most of the time. Do I roleplay? Within Second Life hardly ever. I also own a toddleedoo avatar, with which I hardly roleplay with either, I just enjoy running through SL without being propositioned to have sex. 

Nothing about the text indicated she was roleplaying, the point that she was willing to change to an adult avatar to have a conversation strongly underlines the fact that she was indeed not roleplaying. Someone who does roleplay will stay IC and they'd never change shapes/species/whatnot unless it was relevant to the rp plot. 

Hmm. I've read Freya's response to this and my inclination is to agree with her in that anyone who gets themselves up to look like something they are not, such as a child or furry, has made themselves up into that role. They may not always go around 'being' that thing - e.g. a dog avatar may not always just bark and never use words - but it's still 'in' the role of the thing. I didn't include neko because, as far as I know, that's merely strapping on a few extras - tail, ears and whiskers - and they don't go around meowing, so it's not something different like a dog or a child are.

It may be a bit grey, and it's probable that you are both right in the way that each of you sees it. For me, a child avatar is 'in' a role just by being a child avatar. Whether or not they speak with child-like words and conversation or with adult conversation doesn't make any difference. They are still 'in' the child role and, as such, can be said to be roleplaying, even at times when they are being themselves (adults) in conversations. The use of the word 'roleplaying' at all times may a bit grey though.

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You're pretty much spot on. :)

For clarity, this is more or less the model that I'm using:-

Archetype.jpg

Roleplaying as I use it above falls under part of Immersion - a user who is choosing to (re)create themselves or part of themselves, create a different image in other peoples' minds or explore new internal paths. Child avatars fit within this, whether there's a 'story' or 'IC/OOC' separation is unimportant, these are mostly concepts unique to Second Life/MUDs/etc.

Also note that most Second Life users will register a little bit towards Immersionist, this is cultural.

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Over the years, I've found time and time again that the only people who hate or are creeped out/sickened by Child Avis are those who participate deeply in the adult culture of SL and consider everything on SL to be adult - no matter the theme or area they live in/run.

To them, since everything has an underlying sexual nature, they can't possible conceive any reason why an Adult like themselves would like to play a child, and their mind immediately goes to "they must be a pedophile".

 

This is not the case, but I've found this is always the reason for the prejudice.

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You don't have to RP a 13 year old you can really be 13 to join SL.  Maybe lots of avatars you talk to are really 13 in RL. 

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KlistiesSeMio Ewinaga wrote:

To them, since everything has an underlying sexual nature, they can't possible conceive any reason why an Adult like themselves would like to play a child, and their mind immediately goes to "they must be a pedophile".

The opposite to this is the sort of person who believes that their children are welcome everywhere, without warning or catering for. Parties, cinema visits, long haul flights, packed stores and libraries.

Alternatively, the sort of person like I've responded to in this thread - the type that believe that any dislike of child avatars is due to concern of 'triggering' latent urges. "Anyone who doesn't like kids must have something wrong with them."

All of these types of people are harmful, it's not exclusive to only one side of the argument. Generalisations suck, and accusational responses are not productive.

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I must then be the exception that proves the rule.  I have perhaps only once or twice visited an adult sim in sl, and then only to hear a live singer.  That is not to say I have a problem with adult entertainment, I don't, I just find it generally boring.

Perhaps I jut prefer good conversation.

Quite a gross assumption on two points, firstly that I am deeply immersed in the adult culture of sl and also that I presume that all child avies are paedophiles.  I was concerned about the approach by this one child avi, the content of their profile and their singling out of me.  That is all.

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I never said the folk who hate kids must have something wrong, just that they, like the OP, think the person playing the kid must have something wrong. OP saw an innocent chat as a proposition for something R rated - for what reason??

 

In my personal experience with this kind of hate (as I too, was once a child avi), those who didn't like me on their sims (even in G rated forest themed places for photos, mind you), are the types who assume because I'm playing a kid, I must be sick in the head.

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Apologies if my post was confusing - yours initially seemed to point the finger at the adult avatar (vs. the child avatar). My only point in responding was that the fault can just as easily lie with the child avatar or those defending them.

To be clear, I wasn't saying you'd accused anyone of anything.

It seemed imbalanced to mention one set of evils without pointing out that it's just as common on the other side. :)


KlistiesSeMio Ewinaga wrote:

 the types who assume because I'm playing a kid, I must be sick in the head.

This type of thinking hurts everyone, as I said above. The reasons for child avatars (and child avatar 'haters') are more complex than this. My intention in this thread has been to move past that.

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Magnus Brody wrote:

I'd be grateful for your opinions.

 

I'm co-owner of a couple of sims which are based on a rl place, not rp.  We are a community and get visitors from all over the world.

 

We don't ban rp at all, but we are a very social community and generally discuss rl.

 

Now and then we are visted by child avis or families and, as a rl tourist attraction, we are welcoming and polite.  However I have always been ill at ease with adults rping children, but I realise that is part of sl and I suspend judgement.

Today, I had quite a freaky experience.  An avi, describing itself as a 13 years old girl, and with an avatar which was very small and in keeping with their profile desciption, visited an event I was holding.  I was concerned at their appearance enough that I checked their profile and became even more concerned when their "rl" pic was a very young female selfie.

The avi IM'd me without me making any welcome in local and the convo went like this...

[2014/05/11 12:12]  13yo Avi (13yo Avi): Hello.

[2014/05/11 12:12]  Magnus Brody: Hey

[2014/05/11 12:13]  13yo Avi (13yo Avi): You're from UK too?
:)

[2014/05/11 12:13]  Magnus Brody: yes

[2014/05/11 12:13]  13yo Avi (13yo Avi): Cool

[2014/05/11 12:15]  13yo Avi (13yo Avi): Do you own this place?

[2014/05/11 12:16]  Magnus Brody: Yes

[2014/05/11 12:16]  Magnus Brody: Sorry I'm djing, so sorting out tracks etc

[2014/05/11 12:16]  13yo Avi (13yo Avi): Oh, maybe you'd like to do something later?
:)

[2014/05/11 12:19]  Magnus Brody: tbh I find your profile is something I'm not comfortable with

[2014/05/11 12:19]  13yo Avi (13yo Avi): What do you mean?

[2014/05/11 12:20]  Magnus Brody: I prefer to talk to adults

[2014/05/11 12:21]  13yo Avi (13yo Avi): Oh, so you wont even concider talking to me?
:(

[2014/05/11 12:21]  Magnus Brody: No, I feel a little creeped out by someone role playing a 13yo

[2014/05/11 12:22]  13yo Avi (13yo Avi): Why's that?

[2014/05/11 12:23]  Magnus Brody: Well, let's just say, I don't talk to 13yo rl or sl

[2014/05/11 12:23]  Magnus Brody: If you continue, I shall report this convo to the lab, as I feel it very creepy

[2014/05/11 12:23]  13yo Avi (13yo Avi): Sorry, report for what? I havent done anything

[2014/05/11 12:24]  Magnus Brody: I have told you I am creeped out, that should really be enough

[2014/05/11 12:24]  13yo Avi (13yo Avi): Okay, Im sorry.

[2014/05/11 12:25]  13yo Avi (13yo Avi): If I were to change my age?

At this point I banned them.

I was left feeling quite sick and uncomfortable, really creeped out.  I found this approach very weird as my profile makes it quite clear I am nearly 50 and contains a photo to evidence I'm certainly within that ballpark.

Perhaps you think I overreacted and I would like your views.

As a larger discussion, is it acceptable to rp children in SL?  Is anyone else generally creeped out?

Regarding your behavior, I think the biggest problem was how you handled telling the other avatar that you weren't interested in interacting with them. Telling them they made you uncomfortable set off a "Why? Wait - what did I do?" reaction that tend to make them want to keep interacting with you to try and fix things. If your reaction to their asking to hang out with you was on the lines of, "No thank you - I'm usually really busy," and generally made it clear you weren't interested in them without making it personal there would have been much less drama. Your feelings are your feelings and you can't control them but you can control how you express them.

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But, as another 50 year old male of UK origin, neither would I have seen it as 'an innocent chat' but as a come on. And still made from the representation of a 13 year old female. RP mode or not, it would have made my mane stand on end.

From my point of view, any rudeness came from the insistence of trying to engage the OP in any form after they had clearly stated they were uncomfortable for a very specific reason.

It has nothing to do with asinine sweeping generalisations.

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

You're pretty much spot on.
:)

For clarity, this is more or less the model that I'm using:-

Archetype.jpg

Roleplaying as I use it above falls under part of Immersion - a user who is choosing to (re)create themselves or part of themselves, create a different image in other peoples' minds or explore new internal paths. Child avatars fit within this, whether there's a 'story' or 'IC/OOC' separation is unimportant, these are mostly concepts unique to Second Life/MUDs/etc.

Also note that most Second Life users will register a little bit towards Immersionist, this is cultural.

Thank you Freya for this enlightning graph and your previous response, I do not mean this sarcastically at all. I see your point of view thoroughly, however as Phil has said, roleplaying is a grey area, as I personally see it entirely differently.

For me, it's playing dress up and unless it's stated by both (or more) parties that a roleplay takes place, it is, to me not a roleplay. Today I walk around as a neko, tomorrow a kitsune, after that I'll use deer antlers, or my bloody mary child avatar. In none of those cases do I assume a role, it is merely dress up and cooing at 'the cute'.

Roleplay to me, is asking someone (given you're not on a roleplay sim) if they're interested, and until the point they are and the actual roleplay starts I do not assume any role at all. I wonder if I am alone with that thinking? Quite frankly I didn't even realise someone could see it your way Freya, simply because those whom I have been roleplaying with, in SL and mostly out of SL whether its over messangers, e-mails, forums or other worlds, haven't seen it your way either. That is not to say it's wrong, or shared by a minority, it simply has not come up until then with those I have roleplayed.

And quite frankly it makes it hard for me to enjoy my dress up if that is what is assumed by a lot of people. 

A couple weeks ago, I went to a store with my adult female neko avatar, a polite gentleman chatted me up, and within three responses offered to be my manslave. That was mainly the reason why I got me a toddleedoo avatar, because I am not looking for sexy times within SL. At all. And would prefer not to be solicited in that way, and my SL life has been quite fun as a child. I do not use toddler speak. I can see how that can be annoying. Except for one instance where a roleplayer (they had a roleplayer tag and some such) told me they'd smack the hell out of me if I continued my whining. Mind you, I was telling a friend that she'd love something I had come across on that sim, in perfect english, no toddler speak no nothing.

But I'd rather take hate than the sexual advances. Gah, this has turned into a ramble now and I apologise. I realise this topic is a hot spot, and I apologise if I got a bit carried away. As per usual, it's very hard to judge without knowing all the details, which we never will.

As such I'll continue playing dress up with my virtual doll and assume everyone doesn't suddenly think I am roleplaying 100% of the time, that'd be verrrry tiresome!

ETA: I hope you don't mean me with the person who has assumed others to have underlying urges. I do not ever go into that direction o.O

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A 'why what did I do' reaction? I might consider that if I was dealing with an actual 13 year old as it would be resonable enough - in different circumstances perhaps - but not to another supposed adult. Can't have it both ways.

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I guess my issue is a lot of older guys seem to figure if a young girl is talking to them for any reason, she must then be after his junk.

 

what-are-the-facts-about-online-dating-396554480-mar-18-2013-1-600x500.jpg

Thus the reason for the 'uncomfortable feeling'. You wouldn't be uncomfortable if you didn't assume.

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sirhc DeSantis wrote:

A 'why what did I do' reaction? I might consider that if I was dealing with an actual 13 year old as it would be resonable enough - in different circumstances perhaps - but not to another supposed adult. Can't have it both ways.

Are you for real? We never stop learning, and any sensible adult would be curious as to why they have offended someone out of the blue. An inquiring mind is a treasure, and asking never hurts whether there's an answer or not. 

Just because we're adults doesn't mean it's not proper to ask the famous question of 'why'.

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As long as you don't judge the person or make accusations of what they're doing is wrong, it should be fine.

However, you didn't need to be blunt by saying you were creeped out. Say no thank you and let that be that.

You made your statement that you don't want to the talk to the person , gave your reason(s) why but you didn't outright call that person a horrible being or a weirdo for their choices.You said the SITUATION was creepy, not the person.

A lot of people tend to have this type of argument but aimed more at certain lifestyles and the major basis of what matters to them is the question of what is right and what is wrong. It seems nobody can truly make that type of decision because it all depends on the preference of the person. I don't believe there's a solid answer.

When everyone worries about right and wrong, no one considers if they should just tolerate it and move on.

For your question on SL users RPing as Children, I feel the same way and they should be free to do so as they please.

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Syn Anatine wrote:

And quite frankly it makes it hard for me to enjoy my dress up if that is what is assumed by a lot of people. 

I've thoight a little more about your understanding of roleplay, and I can agree with it too :) If I'm right, you don't see anything as roleplay unless the person is actually playing the role at the time. I can accept that. I can see and accept both points of view.

 


For me, it's playing dress up and unless it's stated by both (or more) parties that a roleplay takes place, it is, to me not a roleplay. Today I walk around as a neko, tomorrow a kitsune, after that I'll use deer antlers, or my bloody mary child avatar. In none of those cases do I assume a role, it is merely dress up and cooing at 'the cute'.

Dressing up is very different to being something. Dressing up as a neko is, as you said, merely dressing up. I assume the same is true of a kitsune but I don't know what that is. On the whole, child avatars haven't merely dressed up for a while. Child avatars in SL are generally an SL lifestyle and not merely dressing up. For you, you are not roleplaying anything when you dress up as a child. You are just dressing up for a while. But child avatars are generally in the child role much, most, or all of the time. They may dress up, by wearing antlers or neko stuff, for instance, but they are still in the role of children. On balance, I would say that they are roleplaying as children because it's their life in SL, regardless of whether or not they are behaving in a child or adult way at any one time.

I don't disagree with the way you see it but I do think you are talking about something different - dressing up as something as distinct from being something. We have no indication as to which of the two the 13 year old girl was, but that doesn't make any difference.

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Amie Kaestner wrote:

but people in this thread seem to be pretending that SL isn't inhabited by bad people. 

 

Some of choose to live in fear (and vote Republican). Some of us don't.

Where are all these bad people?

On its 'less ideal end' SL has a number of people that annoy me. A number I disagree with. And some I fnd awefully bland.

But bad people?

The idea that the internet is full of 'dangerous scary OTHER people' is a bit outdated. Its full of the same people as RL.

And frankly, most of those are not bad. Weird and different sometimes, sure. But not bad.

 

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sirhc DeSantis wrote:

A 'why what did I do' reaction? I might consider that if I was dealing with an actual 13 year old as it would be resonable enough - in different circumstances perhaps - but not to another supposed adult. Can't have it both ways.

I know many adults in both RL and (especially) SL who have less emotional maturity than some actual 13 year olds I've met.

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I'm on my way out the door, I hope you excuse my brevity.

I do understand that it's not 'personal', and that this topic uses a lot of loaded terms (that's why we get a lot of drama in threads like this). I try to standardise my own word-use, and wanted to make sure the context of 'Roleplayer' that I'd been using was understood. You're welcome to define these grey areas for yourself, my perspectives don't apply to everyone. I just wanted to be sure I was coming from a place people would understand.

My definitions do not diminish your enjoyment. :) All I can do is promise that I've thought about how I use these terms a lot, and that this is the most reasonable way I have of conveying my position unambiguously.

I can appreciate your reasoning for using a child avatar, although I wish it wasn't necessary. I'd like to say that the answer is to call people out for sexualising you without consent, but I leave it to each to find their own response to problems that I can't personally solve. I personally (with no judgement on anyone else) would feel bad about using the percieved innocence of a child to muddy the waters of adult interaction. I don't condemn anyone for this though, it is an easier route.

I don't think it was you who seemed to project dislike of children as sublimated urges, but conflating Second Life child avatars with real Life children is a big enough leap that it can provide a secondary 'leap' to words of that effect.

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Phil Deakins wrote:


Syn Anatine wrote:

What she did was not rolplaying. Roleplaying is something else entirely. Merely being a child avatar, or furry, or demon or whatsoever in SL does not mean they are roleplaying at all. I myself am a Neko most of the time. Do I roleplay? Within Second Life hardly ever.

Hmm. I've read Freya's response to this and my inclination is to agree with her in that anyone who gets themselves up to look like something they are not, such as a child or furry, has made themselves up into that role. They may not always go around 'being' that thing - e.g. a dog avatar may not always just bark and never use words - but it's still 'in' the role of the thing. I didn't include neko because, as far as I know, that's merely strapping on a few extras - tail, ears and whiskers - and they don't go around meowing, so it's not something different like a dog or a child are.

I've almost never found this to be the case.

Quite the opposite, I see countless profiles of human avatars, male and female, that describe how buff and dominant they are, how sexy they are, and so on... when I strongly suspect these ways they portray themselves are not in line with their real life.

- They are the ones playing a role.

 

By contrast I see furries and child AVs all the time that just are... and often the avatar provides a way to 'escape' being judged by their look, or being presumed to be in a role. To these people your statement would seem baffling.

I have met child avatars that roleplay kid talk and all of that - but they're just one end of a spectrum and I meet less of them than I do of the people with adult human avatars that say stuff like:

"this one is be used, its master is X, this one cannot speak on its own"...

"master of the Y harem, lord of all, wealthy beyond ur dreamz"

"Owner and CEO of Z industries Inc, we do XYZ" (and its a small unincorporated shop owned by one dude, that sells some old stuff.)

"sexxy DJ and dancer" from someone who plays their iTunes and cycles some dances they bought. Ie, does neither.

- These are all roles people are playing. Fine for them... But that dancer is no real dancer or DJ, That CEO is not business tycoon. "This one" is just some dude playing a sex fantasy, and the harem master is likely the bloke on the #38 bus bored in traffic half his life. You can find "stuff like this" and more on so many human profiles in SL.

Yes some furry and Child AV profiles also go into a role for their form... but I seem to usually encounter these folks out of role. And they're the minority among the type among the sample set I've met.

 

I find it interesting that I get more conversations about real life issues and dynamics from the furries and child AVs I meet that I meet than from the humans. THough with less private info conveyed. The humans will stick to their role like a politician on a bribe... but then tell you their RL name and include a photo of the "goods on display".

The furries and child AVs will tell me all about their day, what they ate for lunch, what movies or games they like - but I'm lucky to find out what country they live in, never get names... and thankfully never get sent pictures of the "goods"...

 

But then that's the circles I float in.

 

I think if a furry went to a furry 'club' and started barking... they'd get tossed. But I dunno. I've been in many many times and I've never seen it happen. And I've seen all kinds of weird in some of those place... But of all the weird I've seen... a furry 'playing a role' is the one thing I've yet to encounter... Unless those gay blokes who like first person shooter games are really straight dudes that play football and not video games...

 

 

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