Mesh simply doesn't work

[Summer Tison]

I like some aspects of Mesh, furniture is very good and the Land Impact is much lower so that's a plus, I love my new mesh hair, never thought I would find hair that I was happy with so another plus, and also my mesh feet, no more ugly feet when I want to go shoeless, but I have to admit that most mesh clothes are far from satisfactory,

I refuse to change my shape just to wear the clothing, my body shape seems to fall somewhere between M and S, but I'm not even sure there is a standard as I have a beautiful skirt from HOC that fits perfectly, but I'm sure given time things will become a lot better and I'll start wearing more and more mesh, until then my inv is bursting at the seams with all the clothes I've bought and loved over the years, so I'll never have to run around SL naked.

I use Singularity and have no problem seeing other people's Mesh, and yes, I'm the other side of the pond too, so I have no idea what's going on Phil, SL seems to be running a lot better for me since SSB.

[Tari Landar]

I'm about the same as you Dillon. I like my shape, lol. I don't like having to alter my shape to fit clothing. I don't much care for a lot of mesh clothing, for that reason. I do buy demos, of course. I'd never buy mesh sight unseen, that's just a bad decision.

I know some people think you only have to tweak some settings and overall mesh will look fantastic, but I do disagree on some points with that thought. Difference of opinion I suppose. I think there can easily be a lot more tweaking than I deem necessary.

My av has larger than average but smaller than ginormous breasts-there's a reason for that(and no I don't use prim breasts, don't like them). Most mesh doesn't not fit me properly in the chest because of this. I don't like having to make them smaller just to fit a top, or a dress. Then they're smaller overall and it's not the look I like, or was going for. Changing all other sliders except the breasts, does not alter how it fits in the chest. I know, because I've tried, despite not wanting to, lol. I've done a LOT of demo trying and shape altering-just to see. I'm not worried about my height, or the sliders that make really no difference at all to mesh. The breast thing does bother me, the same with body fat and thickness. Even using the standard size L, sometimes does not work. Assuming a creator provides an XL, I can usually use that with some success-depending on the article or type of clothing. I do usually have to remake the alphas though. I'm not sure what people do to make their alphas but there is *often a gap on the top of the breasts that I seriously dislike, a LOT. I know how to make alphas though so this isn't a problem for me. My av isn't necessarily all that curvy, but she's not a stick either. So finding mesh that fits just right, is hard at times.

I do have a problem with people saying they use standard sizes, because I am finding some deviations from standard among different creators. A lot more deviations than there used to be when the whole standard thing really first started. I do find that odd. I understand if you have your own "standard" sizes, that's cool. But if you follow some other crowd with their "standard", it should be the same, no? Maybe I'm just weird, not sure, hehe. Maybe there are a few sets of standard out that I'm not aware of. I'm no fashionista and I don't follow trends, very many blogs, let alone fashion groups. I just buy what I like because I like it.

Overall mesh isn't bad, I do like it. Clothing is just an iffy area for me, it really is. I either like it, or hate it. I like my prim and system clothes a lot, and I can almost always get them to fit me, without needing to edit my shape. I like that aspect. Even if changes to the shape need to be minimal for mesh, it's enough for me to not like it a lot of the time. There are some people who rig very oddly though. Like tops or dresses that have straps that cut into the shoulder. No matter what editing to my shape I do, that sucker's not gonna fit. So, I sometimes wonder what kind of shape that person was wearing when trying it on/creating it, or if they were paying attention at all. I have a some tanktops and sundresses, in particular, that do this. One wasn't a demo, but a group gift. I happen to like this creator's work, so the dress cutting in like that somewhat stunned me. It's entirely possible it was simply a bad template, and multiple people are using it. Which may be why I've come across it more than once. Who knows, lol. I don't buy the full versions of demos that fit goofy. Thankfully I'm smart enough to know this, haha.

I prefer mesh objects to mesh clothing(still don't buy sight unseen). It seems there is a lot more success there than with clothing. That's not to say great clothing isn't out there, I'm sure it is. I've seen plenty, some absolutely gorgeous even. It's just not likely tailored to what I'm looking for, or what will fit me without my shape needing tweaked. I'm one of those....not changing my body for the clothes, sorts of people I suppose. The world needs all kinds of us, right?

[Perrie Juran]

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

Seconded. There's no question mesh allows much more realistic looking objects than we were used to. There's also no question that mesh clothing in its current status requires us to delete large portions of our avatars (via alphas) and does not allow us to fit garments to our shapes in the manner we'd come to know prior to the introduction of mesh.

I wear the shape I have on purpose. It means something to me. I won't bend it for clothes. I realize that's not true for everyone (it's probably not true for the majority of residents and I completely understand that), but it's true for me and I know it's also true for a number of other people. Idiotic as it might seem, my avatar's physical characteristics matter to me. Making a new shape to fit mesh clothing just won't do.

Just to make it clear:  my only arguement is with mesh CLOTHING.

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I agree with you here.

I've seen some awesome mesh builds.  

But I have seen very very little Mesh clothes that does not destroy individuality.

And there is nothing as unsexy as being involved in a romantic moment and upon taking off your partner's blouse discovering there is nothing under it.

Give us the boobies!

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Tari Landar wrote:

Overall mesh isn't bad, I do like it. Clothing is just an iffy area for me, it really is. I either like it, or hate it. I like my prim and system clothes a lot, and I can almost always get them to fit me, without needing to edit my shape. I like that aspect. Even if changes to the shape need to be minimal for mesh, it's enough for me to not like it a lot of the time. There are some people who rig very oddly though. Like tops or dresses that have straps that cut into the shoulder. No matter what editing to my shape I do, that sucker's not gonna fit. So, I sometimes wonder what kind of shape that person was wearing when trying it on/creating it, or if they were paying attention at all. I have a some tanktops and sundresses, in particular, that do this. One wasn't a demo, but a group gift. I happen to like this creator's work, so the dress cutting in like that somewhat stunned me. It's entirely possible it was simply a bad template, and multiple people are using it. Which may be why I've come across it more than once. Who knows, lol. I don't buy the full versions of demos that fit goofy. Thankfully I'm smart enough to know this, haha.

 

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What you're seeing is an inescapable problem with mesh clothing and the current SL avatar - the avatar is rigged very badly, so either 1) The maker needs to try to make the rigging on the clothing equally bad (which isn't easy, and often looks like crap) or 2. They need to rig the clothing item so that it moves rationally for that item and then hide the irrational jumble of geometry that is the avatar underneath.

The mesh deformer will NOT, I repeat will NOT fix this. The deformer seems to have become the Laetrile of SL - it's supposed to work wonders mostly because people can't get their hands on it. I've used test versions of it before - it helps some fitting issues but there's nothing it can do about rigging and therefore won't eliminate the need for alphas.

The farther away from the avatar mesh clothing sits, the better it works. It's great for things like bulky overcoats (which were universally horrible before mesh) and pretty good for long sweatery things. It's also very good for miniskirts. Anything that needs to fit very close to the body and reveal skin will cause problems. However, fitting close to the body and showing skin is something that system clothing can do perfectly.

My main avatar is a teenage girl - she's skinny, coltish and somewhat flat chested. Mesh clothing just doesn't work for her except for things like miniskirts and boots. However, the sort of things she tends to wear and her figure mean system clothes work  well for her.

As it happens, though, one of her alts cousins was born with an absolutely perfect figure for mesh - it looks stunning on her. This was just the shape she had and requres no more tweaking than what happens every day when RL women open their bra drawers. She is also rather shy and tends to cover up more so she is naturally suited to mesh clothing, particulary that from G Field and ColdLogic.

Her evil alt aunt, on the other hand, didn't originally have a perfectly mesh-compatible shape - however, after buying an industrial-strength body briefer she can squash herself into it when she wants while returning to her original shape during, well, private time. This exactly how I see this character  living her life in RL too.

Mesh is a way of doing things. It's good for some things. It's not good for others. Use it for the things that it does well. Don't use it for the things that it doesn't do well. Is this really that difficult?

[Czari Zenovka]

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Summer Tison wrote:

 

I refuse to change my shape just to wear the clothing, my body shape seems to fall somewhere between M and S, but I'm not even sure there is a standard as I have a beautiful skirt from HOC that fits perfectly, but I'm sure given time things will become a lot better and I'll start wearing more and more mesh, until then my inv is bursting at the seams with all the clothes I've bought and loved over the years, so I'll never have to run around SL naked.

 

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I agree with not adjusting my shape to fit mesh clothing - that would be a "I'd never even consider mesh clothing...period...if I had to do that."  As Dillon (I think) said, my shape is a reflection of me - who I want to project in SL and elements of my RL self - ie. tall, fair skin, red hair, etc.

Having said that, that's not the only issue with mesh clothing that I have found.  Even being a bit taller (these days) than many female avatars, the M size mesh clothing in the various items I've tried fit without any parts of my skin showing through.  What I don't like is that the clothes I've tried may have more "realistic" creases, etc. (although a skilled clothes designer can do AMAZING things to create creases, shading, etc. on system clothing - I consider some of my outfits works of art by the creator - they look like way too much starch was used on them.  Where is this "flowing with your body" that I keep hearing about?

Interestingly, this morning I received a group notice from Nicky Ree.  She recently released a new mesh gown and this notice was an update to say that she had received comments/messages from customers saying they prefer the flexi type flow of her gowns, thus she has also created a non-mesh version of the gown.  Now THAT is true customer service.  I applaud Nicky Ree and will send a note to her thanking her when I am next in world.

The first "wave" (no pun intended) of mesh hair that I saw looked like globs of toothpaste with no flow to it at all.  I was, therefore, very surprised when I commented on a woman's hair that I loved and, after asking where she got it, found out it was from my beloved Analog Dog AND mesh.  WHOA!  Mesh that flows???  I checked it out and it is now one of my favorites.  Of course I'm not surprised that anything Que Marlowe creates isn't amazing.   Now I'm having other people ask about my hair and, when they find out it's mesh, are also saying..."Wait...mesh that flows like that???  I didn't think mesh hair would move naturally."

 

[Czari Zenovka]

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Tari Landar wrote:

 

My av has larger than average but smaller than ginormous breasts-there's a reason for that(and no I don't use prim breasts, don't like them).

 

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I received an IM from a gentleman when I was out and about recently.  While chit-chatting I was perving his profile and laughed out loud RL when I saw the statement, "I derender Lolas."  I commented on the statement and he said something to the effect of, "For some people too much is never enough."

So a few days later I'm at a well-known shoe store on M rated land and there is a topless chick wearing lolas in all their "glory."  For some reason I thought nudity wasn't permitted on M land but, now having rethought that, the issue I was thinking wasn't the M but being in a store and that would be the prerogative of the land owner.  Anyway, this is the first time I've seen lolas and these weren't just ginormous (on a short, petite avatar no less), but matched about as well as a noobie male's freenis.  Really?  I mean...this is an attractive look?  I realize this may be an isolated case of mismatching, etc. but I thought back to the comment on the man's profile and promptly started trying to derender them.  Ummm...is it truly possible to derender lolas? 

 

[Syo Emerald]

My mesh clothes/avatar parts look fine to me. I'm happy. I need them. I don't care about fanatic rant. LL doesn't care either. End of the story.

[Czari Zenovka]

One person's "fanatic rant" is another person's logic.

[Marianne Little]

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Melita Magic wrote:

Reading Vania's post about good mesh (and the other posts about bad mesh) and how there is a difference, it strikes me that it might be a good idea if LL made a Mesh shopping or Mesh fashion sub forum. Not for creating mesh, but for people to post feedback about problems with using mesh, benefits of using mesh, how to find good mesh objects or fashions...things like that.

A guide in what to look for, how to wear it, improvement suggestions from the customer end, etc.

One complaint I hear often about mesh fashion is that the clothes are made for certain standard body shapes. I don't really know what those are, other than bodies very hippy or very busty don't seem to be included with standard mesh clothing packs.

In a forum like that one, if enough creators read about a certain point or 'complaint' perhaps things would change. 

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A very good idea, but we would not be allowed to give a honest opinion. Even if we said just a tiny bit of criticism and could back it up with screenshots, the designer would complain and according to the forum rules, the post would vanish. A shopping forum would be good, but it would just work so that people could ask for suggestions, and then try the items after.

For mesh that adapts to all shapes, we have had "liquid mesh" a while now. This mesh will adapt to body fat and muscle. Meaning that you can wear it and it adapts to you, not that you have to change. Caveat: It does not adjust with boob size. :smileyfrustrated: It does not work on belly size either, I think.

It is so much written about it, you can google, but this post refer to other blogs. : http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2013/08/liquid-mesh-use-at-your-own-risk.html

And a post with a video of boots in liquid mesh: http://strawberrysingh.com/2013/08/11/inventory-meme-liquid-mesh/

[Marianne Little]

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Mesh is a way of doing things. It's good for some things. It's not good for others. Use it for the things that it does well. Don't use it for the things that it doesn't do well. Is this really that difficult?

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THIS is the best I have read. It is not about loving or hating mesh, it is all about what I prefer and what works for ME. Not others. It is absolutly possible to mix mesh and system clothing, some times it is a must because mesh tops and bottoms can clip into each other. And I have quite a few prim jewelry pieces thats stunning, I will wear them. But I notice that I wear more and more mesh, and mesh clothing now can not be compared with 2011 clothing... it fits better, and is rigged better.

(Edited the wording to I and ME)

[Qie Niangao]

There's this: 

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

I've just about boxed up all my pre-mesh clothes, and replaced almost all of my pre-mesh furnishings.

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 and then there's this:

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

Mesh is a way of doing things. It's good for some things. It's not good for others. Use it for the things that it does well. Don't use it for the things that it doesn't do well. Is this really that difficult?

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Personally, I'm way more in the "for some things" camp.

I don't even understand how it's possible to use only mesh clothes, when they layer so badly. I mean even the very best rigging of outfits where the parts are all made to go together, even under those ideal circumstances, just the wrong animation will poke one mesh through another that's supposed to be on top. (No way I'm going to limit myself to some creator's idea of an outfit, so the single-mesh-outfit kludge is no solution.)

It's certainly true that some mesh items are rigged even worse than others, but for men's clothes, the stuff that's rigged even acceptably is downright rare. To be frank, I know exactly one creator who has it right, and a few who have used his templates, and the rest: varying degrees of incompetence. (Not coincidentally, that creator sells everything with Mod permission, even though it's rigged -- think about how sensible that is, and useful, and yet rare; he was also first to market with men's clothing Materials, and that's one thing you really can't get with the system avatar Mesh.)

[Marianne Little]

Mesh is possible to layer, but of course not all can be worn together... but a size small on the bottom and a medium on the top helps a lot. This lace top could not work before mesh, and the skirt is mesh too. I love it!

[Dillon Levenque]

Agreed (or thirded since you were seconding another post and besides I've already seconded something here). I do have some mesh clothes that work for me. They're all sweaters or coats, so I don't wear them this time of year but come October they'll be seen. They're also all from the Men's side of the market since I'm stacked about as well as Theresa's teen.

As several other people have said, and as I believe: mesh clothing is not the only way to go. If you can find an attractive piece that fits, go for it.  In the meantime there's a ton of really beautifully done non-mesh clothing available.

[Melita Magic]

Mesh did not run over my dog or insult my family; I'm not against it in principle. Just to make clear.

It's absolutely a good way to use whatever works, paint, prim, sculpt, flexi, mesh.

In my opinion it's only when a person says something to others like, "You luddite, in prims!" or "You trendoid, in mesh!" that there are problems. There are good and bad aspects to each.

Some of us can't see or use mesh though (even for some with the new viewers, their computer can't  handle the latest graphics) so I wish stores would not be made of mesh. It just isn't really necessary, until it's so low draw that everyone can use it equally. 

What people wear and use in their homes or on their land otherwise, I don't mind.

[Phil Deakins]

Thank you all for your posts in this thread. Apart from the odd nay-sayer, the posts in this thread show that it was a waste of time starting it because it's so well-known that mesh doesn't work properly - at least in the area that I wrote about - clothes.

[Sassy Romano]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

Thank you all for your posts in this thread. Apart from the odd nay-sayer, the posts in this thread show that it was a waste of time starting it because it's so well-known that mesh doesn't work properly - at least in the area that I wrote about - clothes.

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I like mesh clothes and I agree with you Phil.

Far too often I find myself teleporting and then the viewer doesn't render the mesh attachment until I zoom in and out to make it pop into view.   If that's my own view, what do other see?  Do I care?  no but it's not exactly a very good experience if everyone sees a completely different view of those around them.  LL made such a big noise about "shared experience" and how the TPV rules prohibit implementing features such as the attachments points because others would see something different than the default LL viewer but that's exactly what we have without anything as complex as that scenario.

Second, I just don't see it being an overloaded connection.  As I understand it the maximum bandwidth that SL delivers from the server is capped at 1500 kbps which I would expect to be well within the capability of any reasonable broadband connection.  It's certainly not going to cause my 120Mbps connection to even consider it "slightly less than trivial" to deal with.  In fact my broadband connection looks at me with utter contempt much of the time.

Similarly, any PC with a dual core or higher processor (and appropriate memory) is completely capable of running at least 2 instances of the viewer and in most cases more, be they running on the same PC or virtualised on the same PC.  I'm not sure i've ever seen a case of "confusion" for any of the years that i've run multiple viewers.  The only issue to take care of is different paths for the cache.

There's much improvement for mesh yet to come I hope.

 

[Tari Landar]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

Thank you all for your posts in this thread. Apart from the odd nay-sayer, the posts in this thread show that it was a waste of time starting it because it's so well-known that mesh doesn't work properly - at least in the area that I wrote about - clothes.

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I know, like I didn't say enough already, lol, but..

I completely agree. In the clothing department mesh is really not all it's cracked up to be to a LOT of people. It's not the small minority some seem to think. But just like everything else in sl, there are niches here and there. Some don't mind tweaking their bodies, and for them mesh usually functions pretty well. For the ones who don't however, we have a rough go with it quite often. To be honest I think I saw more, this is going to sound grammatically incorrect-my mind is mush today, better mesh back when there seemed to be one set of standard sizes. Maybe not necessarily as much quality texture wise-that always improves with everything, imo. But as far as fit goes. When you know the "advertised standard" doesn't fit ya, you know to avoid it. When the "advertised standard" is changed, all bets are off. I love demos for this reason only, lol.

I never did address the mesh not showing up properly, my apologies for helping derail lol. I have a HUGE issue with it when I use singularity. Which is why I don't use that viewer. I'm not certain why to be honest. I don't have nearly as many issues on fs, or even the few-very few-I'll use the v3. Clearly my pc and singularity are having squabbles somewhere along the line. Even on fs tho, I too have had the weird mishapen mesh. It has happened here and there with sculpts, but not in any real measurable amount. With mesh, some days it truly can be hit or miss. I can't attribute it all to the viewer, or sl, or the mesh, of course. It's still a bit of a nuisance. Clothing mesh errors are the ones I see more than anything. I assume to others it looks normal-I've even asked. That doesn't mean it'll look normal to everyone. I've had the issues when running only one instance, and running multiple. I almost expect it in multiple, but, anecdotally only, it happens more frequent when using one instance.  I'm also not across the pond-not that I think it should matter all that much. I do have good connection and don't have many, if any, lag issues otherwise.

I think sparky, that's my pc's name, simply hates mesh. That's my excuse anyway, since I've not yet found rhyme or reason to it.

As for me making mesh, well that's an entirely different novel for a different day. I shall just say that mesh and I don't get along when it comes to creation. It may have a lot do do with my lack of vision-and by that I mean actual vision not creative vision. The way I see things, or want to see things since I don't necessarily seem to see them the same as most people, doesn't always translate well into mesh. In fact, my children are leaning how to make mesh in their technology course this year-and one of them has surpassed my ability in less than two months. I'm destined to be "vintage" I guess

Sorry I derailed again. I'd be sleeping if I didn't have to chase after some escapee froglets before the cats decide it's time to play tag with them, about an hour ago.

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

Second, I just don't see it being an overloaded connection.  As I understand it the maximum bandwidth that SL delivers from the server is capped at 1500 kbps which I would expect to be well within the capability of any reasonable broadband connection.  It's certainly not going to cause my 120Mbps connection to even consider it "slightly less than trivial" to deal with.  In fact my broadband connection looks at me with utter contempt much of the

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"Bandwidth" is only for the UDP connection that was formerly for all SL information but now is mostly just used for position updates and other non-critical information. A lot of SL communication is now through separate parallel HTTP connections that are running at the same time, which aren't included in ""Bandwidth" because they can configure their speed automatically and there's no need for a setting. SL running with a newer viewer tends to open a lot of HTTP connections at the same time. SL can open so many connections it can have the same load as a small office environment. Some consumer routers can't handle all these connections - one of the major projects going on at Linden Lab is working out a way to reduce the simultaneous connections used.

Meanwhile - double the accounts? Double the potential for connections.

[Sassy Romano]

Yes that may be so but then that's a seriously hopeless home router because a router that is typically to handle a family at a current typical bandwidth should be able to handle a good number of open connections.  Otherwise the suggestion is that only one family member could be using an application such as Second Life at any one time.

My point was that to suggest that two viewers is "OVERLOADING" as an opening statement is probably the least of the issues. (Probably).

Further, it's not the home router that's at fault here then, it's the design and implementation of a process that leads to fail. Thus, Phil's statement that mesh doesn't work, is wholly justified by the poor implementation of the protocol handling chosen by LL.

What we need then is for Phil to repeat his test with his router in modem mode and that will rule out his router...

[Phil Deakins]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

Yes that may be so but then that's a seriously hopeless home router because a router that is typically to handle a family at a current typical bandwidth should be able to handle a good number of open connections.  Otherwise the suggestion is that only one family member could be using an application such as Second Life at any one time.

My point was that to suggest that two viewers is "OVERLOADING" as an opening statement is probably the least of the issues. (Probably).

Further, it's not the home router that's at fault here then, it's the design and implementation of a process that leads to fail. Thus, Phil's statement that mesh doesn't work, is wholly justified by the poor implementation of the protocol handling chosen by LL.

What we need then is for Phil to repeat his test with his router in modem mode and that will rule out his router...

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It wasn't a test so it can't be repeated. I posted at the very time that I saw it (2 customers) in my store.

[KasherMelody]

Mesh is still beta, right ? :smileyfrustrated:

[LuEllen Weymann]

I finally quit.  

I bought the mesh skin (it was beautiful) I bought the clothes (they were beautiful) I bought the shoes and jewelry. But I have been walking around on my ankles with my feet underground! IT IS SO G**D***  COMPLICATED! I went back to my old self and I am very happy. I have a beautifuo warfdrobe and it looks fine -- maybe not perfect but fine. AND my feet are on the ground! This mesh crap just is not working right yet. You developers get the dang thing working right before you hoist it onto the users!

I am NOT buying any more mesh crap until it is ready for 'prime time!'

 

[Paul Hexem]

[Deltango Vale]

I hate mesh clothing and all the nonsense of fitting it. No thanks. I'm quite happy with my layered and prim outfits.

[Qie Niangao]

I hate them both at this point. The system avatar looks like crap now, compared to mesh, but the mesh clowns creators are so buried in 3D modelling they just don't appreciate how hideous their stuff looks when even minimally animated, and how hopelessly complicated and unhelpful much of it is by being no-mod and hence unscriptable, with mutual incompatibility the norm.

We really need LL to release a new, "standard" humanoid mesh avatar, full perm, to replace all the jury-rigged garbage we've gotten from creators.