Why does LL use unprofessional Paypal?

[Serra Nightfire]

Alright, big rant incoming, seemed like the only place to put it.

-deep breath-

I've had a few Paypal accounts over the years and have closed them down due to various facts.  When I opened one a while back again, I couldn't add my bank information to it.  They don't purge accounts and refuse to take your bank account off of the old accounts, so they basically put you into a trap.

I called them about this problem, and they said that my bank account was already on three other accounts and that my "only option" now is to get a Paypal Debit Card, which he conveniently forgot to mention has a $5 a month service fee.  I know that there has to be some technology there for them to purge accounts or at least remove the bank account off of the old accounts, but they refuse to do it.  They know that people are constantly opening and closing their accounts because they get tired of the bs that Paypal does.  Therefore, they have found a way to profit off it it.

I got my card in the mail Monday, tried to activate it online like it said I could, and naturally it failed.  So I had to call them again, unfortunately.  This time, they told me that I needed to send a picture of my Social Security Card and Drivers License to them in an email in order to have the account activated.  More Paypal hoops to jump though, yay.

My question is, why in the world does Linden Labs even deal with someone so unprofessional as Paypal?  It's widely known that Paypal is a joke and has horrible outsourced customer service.  (but that is a whole different rant right there)  I just needed to get the Paypal debit card in order to transfer my earnings from SL to my real life.

I would think that LL would want to go with someone a bit more reputable than Paypal.  Even Google has their own wallet type of thing, though I don't think it's as easy to send out payments to people as it is in Paypal, but I'm sure that Linden Labs could work something out.  Anyone would be better than Paypal.

And no, I didn't know that they would refuse to take the bank account off of the old accounts, and I see no reason for them not to do so.  (actually, seems like it would be against the law to not remove the information if requested)  They are already asking me for very specific items for proof of who I am to activate the debit card, so it obviously isn't a security issue to them.  I think that if you want your account or at least your bank account info deleted from their database so you can start over again, that they should do it, even if it requires them asking you for proof of identification.  But then they wouldn't make as much money off of their $5 a month debit card fee, and they know it.

[Dilbert Dilweg]

/me wonders if LL ever looked in to BitCoin. I would like the option of who I bank with online instead of being forced to use such Pay-Pal my self.

I think Pay-Pal also has to abide by laws that were changed after 9-11 which they probably wont get rid of that info because the NSA wants it lol. Efforts to quell money laundering tied to terrorism. Bunch of BS if you ask me. I have also read where pay-pal at one time refused service to a company that sells VPN accounts because many of the accounts are used for illegal file sharing.. They do seem to be very drivin by politics.....

But really your beef is with Pay-Pal. There just is not a lot of options when it comes to online money transfer. I did see on the national news they talked about BitCoin a good service to use appearently

 

9-11 laws just like when I go to a bank to cash a check from one of my customers. If I dont have an account I am thumb printed . grrrrr lame

[LepreKhaun]

It saddens me to hear of your upset with the consequences of your past actions and your present difficulties in trying to cope with them. I do hope that you feel better by venting here.

[Serra Nightfire]

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Dilbert Dilweg wrote:

/me wonders if LL ever looked in to BitCoin. I would like the option of who I bank with online instead of being forced to use such Pay-Pal my self.

I think Pay-Pal also has to abide by laws that were changed after 9-11 which they probably wont get rid of that info because the NSA wants it lol. Efforts to quell money laundering tied to terrorism. Bunch of BS if you ask me. I have also read where pay-pal at one time refused service to a company that sells VPN accounts because many of the accounts are used for illegal file sharing.. They do seem to be very drivin by politics.....

But really your beef is with Pay-Pal. There just is not a lot of options when it comes to online money transfer. I did see on the national news they talked about BitCoin a good service to use appearently

 

9-11 laws just like when I go to a bank to cash a check from one of my customers. If I dont have an account I am thumb printed . grrrrr lame

---

I know it would be a big responsibility for LL, but I wonder why they don't make their own withdrawl system.  Seems like the professional thing to do, instead of going through some shady 3rd party service.

And anyone could easily launder money anywhere, really.  If that's what Paypal is concerned about, they need to put on their tinfoil hats!  Just seems suspicious that they won't delete the old information, even if you prove it is yours.  In my opinion, they don't OWN my bank account information, and they should purge it upon my request, instead of keeping it in a database somewhere.  Basically, that information is just sitting there in a database, waiting for anyone to get into it that knows how to.  There is no reason, though I understand what you are saying, for them to keep it.

[Dilbert Dilweg]

Yes I fully agree with that as well as laws need to be made to quell these internet companies from tracking your every move on line and laws need to be made to where if I request that info be removed, then it should be removed. But there are no laws for it. Only Laws created to allow you to obtain information they have on you. Freedom of Information Act.

There is toooo much logging about my life to google etc. Google even tied one of my Online names to my real life info without me evewn giving them that info . Never in my life have I given google information as to all the cities and states I have lived in, but they seemed to have that info and tied it to my Non-Real account. I am pretty pissed about that as well.
 I won't even trust google with a wallet to make purchases!

[Teagan Tobias]

If you closed down a PayPal account, why didn't you remove your bank account from PayPal in the process, that is your job, not up to them. Go to profile and under the bank account click remove (just looked and it is an option). Sounds to me that you have created your own problems. If PayPal thinks the old accounts are still active, log on and remove you bank, I think there is a, I forgot my password, thing in PayPal if you need it.

[Madeline Blackbart]

I would think that theoretical since it's stored in a database they could just delete the entry with your bank info in it. But who am I to say I don't know how to program something as complex as paypal. Not yet anyway. lolz

[Rahkis Andel]

I dont know, 2 services with hardly any alternatives that have a history of customer abuse and buggy software?

LL and Paypay sound like perfect matches to me...

[mypixlalt]

I am a bit shocked, well more surprised about how casually you throw away paypal accounts.

It's not sl, you know I would think that may even have a negative effect on your credit (some paypal interna rating at least)? Could anyway.

 

You could make a new bank account, link that and stick with it this time, then the trouble would be worth it.

 

Must be 10 years ago when I opened my paypal account and still use it a lot, I respect it as a bank account though. Never had a problem, but sorry yea that does't help you at all right now.

[Serra Nightfire]

Nope, they know they are inactive, they told me.  Oddly, I made all of my accounts with the same email address, so I wouldn't even be able to get in there if I tried, as there is currently an account with that email address open.

I guess there's a lot of things they don't tell you and that you don't think about up front.  The only way a person really sees these things is when they have a problem and go to the knowledge base on the site.  Which I can't see anyone doing for something that seems so insignificant as closing an account, even though it is a big deal to close an account for some reason.

If they gave me the option to go back and take those off of there somehow, it wouldn't be a problem.  But the fact that they are unwilling to cooperate when I have no way of going back and doing it myself now is just aggravating.  I would say that they just need to have the information on things like this a bit more up front and in big letters.  ><

And then wanting me to send them a picture of my Social Security Card and Drivers License to even activate their stupid card just adds insult to injury.  I told them all of the information on the phone.  Don't they think that if I stole someones information that I may also have stolen their ID and SS card from their wallet as well?  So basically, sending them the information they want is pointless and dangerous for me.  But I do have $50 in that account that I really need in real life very soon, so I'll give in to them this time.

Yeah, I didn't know to take the information off, but they should still delete it upon request.  It's just reckless for them to have that type of info sitting around on their computers, and they don't have any business even having it anymore, especially since they won't let me use it again.  I still think that there is some legal aspect to the whole thing, but I'm not exactly sure what category that would fall under.  I don't know of any other company that keeps your payment information stored in their computer forever after you close your account with them, though it may be something that the big companies don't talk about.

[Perrie Juran]

I'm really puzzled about your post.  Actually what you are complaining about with PayPal sounds very professional to me.

First off, why you had to close past accounts puzzles me.  Someone closing and opening different accounts should send up some red flags.  Fraud control is a two way street that protects both PayPal (their primary concern, themselves) and the Merchants and Consumers that use it.

PayPal also gives me the ability to change the (active) bank and credit card accounts associated with my PayPal account.  But they still need to maintain book keeping records, some of which may be required by Law.  And those records could possibly include your Banking information.  They are also required by Law to have security protocols in place to protect that information.

When I worked in retail we used to always ask people for ID when using a check to make a purchase.  Occasionally we would get the person who acted all indignant, like we were questioning their honesty.  Sorry, no ID, no take your check.  Protected us and secondarily protected you.  How would you like to suddenly find that someone else had written a check on your account and now you don't have your rent money?

When I traveled for a living I chose the Bank I used based on them having branches in most of the cities I visited.  At my own local Branch, occasionally there would be a new Teller who didn't recognize me and ask for ID.  It never bothered me.

One day I was at a Branch in another city I had never been before cashing a check for $500.00.  And the Teller didn't ask for my ID.  I raised a fuss with the Branch Manager because that Teller failed to protect MY money.  Sure the Bank probably would have made good on it if it was a stolen check, etc, but I still would have had the hassle of dealing with it.

I am aware that there have been people who have had customer service night mares with PayPal.  But reading your post above, in your situation, you are barking up the wrong tree.  PayPal is doing their job and they are doing it right.

[Teagan Tobias]

I guess the biggest thing I don't understand here is that you had a PayPal account, and you did not like PayPal. Why on earth would you start another PayPal account, and then another one, and from the sounds of it, then another one. Its still PayPal, what happened before IS going to happen again. PayPal is a bank account, if you don't have a problem opening bank accounts, go to your bank and open another bank account and use that for PayPal.

[Czari Zenovka]

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mypixlalt wrote:

I am a bit shocked, well more surprised about how casually you throw away paypal accounts.

It's not sl, you know

I would think that may even have a negative effect on your credit (some paypal interna rating at least)? Could anyway.

 

You could make a new bank account, link that and stick with it this time, then the trouble would be worth it.

 

Must be 10 years ago when I opened my paypal account and still use it a lot, I respect it as a bank account though. Never had a problem, but sorry yea that does't help you at all right now.

---

Same experience here.  I've had a PayPal account for at 6+ years.  I had it prior to joining SL but beyond that can't recall exactly when I opened it.

I've never had any issues with it whatsoever.  I also have a PayPal credit card and had a question about it when I first applied.  The customer service person I spoke with was very professional and helpful, including following up on our conversation with an email that detailed our conversation.

During the same time I've had a PayPal account, I've also had the same bank account.  I'm sorry to hear you had this experience as dealing with banks, RL online merchants, LL, etc. can be frustrating; but by the same token, I've also had some very positive experiences with both. 

[Alicia Sautereau]

By what you write, i would incline that you are the reckless one with creating multiple accounts and throwing your billing info at them 4 times in a row by now, that they ask for proof that you are who you are with the 4th account, can`t blame them.

They are bound to keep your account info by law as a payment gateway, why they won`t allow you to link it to more account must be a company policy or something.

This has nothing to do with LL working with paypal.

I`m still using my account from back when they were a small company with no problems what so ever and they were very kind to mediate in a dispute when i didn`t get my goods and refunded me.

[Melita Magic]

I hate paypal! So many online places use it exclusively. It's appalling, has no cutomer service to speak of, never rights wrongs, absolutely loathe that thing.

I once disputed a purchase (tried to cancel) and the vendor would not cancel or send the item. Paypal was held up (couldnt'  use it) meantime. Finally to end the dispute I said okay fine, take the money, send the item I don't want. All these years later it hasn't been removed as a dispute and my paypal wont work.

I've tried to sign up with a different card, all that; they are like, nope, you are signed up under this card use this one. Except - they won't allow it to be in use becaues of a years old minor dispute.

Stupid heads!

[Kenbro Utu]

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Serra Nightfire wrote:

I called them about this problem, and they said that my bank account was already on three other accounts and that my "

only option

" now is to get a Paypal Debit Card, which he conveniently forgot to mention has a $5 a month service fee.  

---

Are you in the US?  Paypal has never charged me for debit cards.  We have had them for years. 

[Iloie Perse]

Weird, I have been with PP since the inception and have had very few problems. If you cancel then make a new account several times it raises a flag with them that perhaps you are laundering money. In the US there is no charge for the debit card plus it is easy to tie it to a business. I know some people have had problems with them but following standard business practices will not put a curiosity flag on your account. Also, in reference to your bank account or credit card they always know when it is expiring and send notifications for an update. There is one situation that causes problems with SlugLife when you change your payment options on an avatar from PP to CC you get three changes then PP will no longer accept the account. This is a LL preset not PayPal.

 

Being indecisive does not sit well with any financial institution as it raises questions about the purpose of the account

 

Do not get me wrong I have little love for the money changers but if you desire to use them you do have to play within the rules

[Malanya]

---

Iloie Perse wrote:

Weird, I have been with PP since the inception and have had very few problems. If you cancel then make a new account several times it raises a flag with them that perhaps you are laundering money. In the US there is no charge for the debit card plus it is easy to tie it to a business. I know some people have had problems with them but following standard business practices will not put a curiosity flag on your account. Also, in reference to your bank account or credit card they always know when it is expiring and send notifications for an update. There is one situation that causes problems with SlugLife when you change your payment options on an avatar from PP to CC you get three changes then PP will no longer accept the account. This is a LL preset not PayPal.

 

Being indecisive does not sit well with any financial institution as it raises questions about the purpose of the account

 

Do not get me wrong I have little love for the money changers but if you desire to use them you do have to play within the rules

---

Exactly. I have had a PayPal business debit card for years and I earn cash back, if that's the card the OP is referring to. It let's you draw your PayPal balance out immediately or can be used a  MC. There is no financial solution that will make everyone happy, but I like you have never had issues and I appreciate the security measures taken with my money. Can't get better than that.

There is a PayPal credit card, not sure if it's being confused with the actual debit card and I have no idea if there is a fee associated with that card.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

I too have had both a personal and business PayPal account for years. In all that time I had one minor problem and called them up and it got fixed immediately.

Seems like your problems are your own fault for not deleting the bank information before you closed your accounts.  Even if you had, they still would have to retain some of the bank information due to having to keep the transaction records by law.  It seems pretty silly to worry now over privacy concerns when you didn't cared about it back then. Fact is you wouldn't be worried now other than the fact you now have to pay a debit card fee that you don't want to pay. 

It may also be a problem for them to delete the old information themselves now.  If you closed your account, the information may have been archived by now and a real pain to reactivate and purge for you and the cost of it may not be justified to them.  So I can't blame them for refusing to do what you didn't care about in the past and failed to do. 

As far as why LL uses PayPal, LL is not a bank.  They can't exchange different currencies into US$ and back again without incurring a lot of fees from their bank. The number of different currencies they'd have to deal with would be huge and they'd need a large accounting staff to keep up with it all.  Those costs would have to be passed onto non-US residents who scream now over such things as VAT.  In addition they would probably have to contend with a lot of national and international banking laws too, which would require a legal staff to keep up with all that. In the end we'd all pay for it in higher transaction fees and tiers etc.  Basically they'd have to turn themselves into an international bank.  So it makes sense for them to use a company like PayPal that is already set up to handle all this for a very modest cost comparatively speaking.

As far as switching to Google, that's going from the frying pan into the fire as far as I am concerned.  I would never give them any RL let alone bank information.  I work very hard at keeping any RL information about me off the net and only give it to companies that keep it totally confidential.  If you google my RL name, there is not one entry that will come up about RL me.  I actually google myself periodically to be sure.  I don't use facebook, twitter or any of those types of sites for just this reason.  The last thing I'd do is share any RL information with Google.

[Malanya]

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Serra Nightfire wrote:

Nope, they know they are inactive, they told me.  Oddly, I made all of my accounts with the same email address, so I wouldn't even be able to get in there if I tried, as there is currently an account with that email address open.

I guess there's a lot of things they don't tell you and that you don't think about up front.  The only way a person really sees these things is when they have a problem and go to the knowledge base on the site.  Which I can't see anyone doing for something that seems so insignificant as closing an account, even though it is a big deal to close an account for some reason.

If they gave me the option to go back and take those off of there somehow, it wouldn't be a problem.  But the fact that they are unwilling to cooperate when I have no way of going back and doing it myself now is just aggravating.  I would say that they just need to have the information on things like this a bit more up front and in big letters.  ><

And then wanting me to send them a picture of my Social Security Card and Drivers License to even activate their stupid card just adds insult to injury.  I told them all of the information on the phone.  Don't they think that if I stole someones information that I may also have stolen their ID and SS card from their wallet as well?  So basically, sending them the information they want is pointless and dangerous for me.  But I do have $50 in that account that I really need in real life very soon, so I'll give in to them this time.

Yeah, I didn't know to take the information off, but they should still delete it upon request.  It's just reckless for them to have that type of info sitting around on their computers, and they don't have any business even having it anymore, especially since they won't let me use it again.  I still think that there is some legal aspect to the whole thing, but I'm not exactly sure what category that would fall under.  I don't know of any other company that keeps your payment information stored in their computer forever after you close your account with them, though it may be something that

the big companies don't talk about.

---

You should be able to add more email addresses and make a different one your primary addy. The have their TOS and they update it with any change and I have never been surprised by any action or hidden surprises. I realize not many people read the whole TOS, I am not saying you didn't but it seems you would be informed of everything they do or changes made. They can't verify who you are by phone and yes it would be safe to assume there was a problem with the accounts having multiple opening and closing, seems odd.

They want your ID so they can verify it's you because of the multiple accounts. How is sending them your information pointless and dangerous? If you stole someone's ID and SS and it was reported they could catch that, I am sure you realize that having it in your possession to send the copies makes a difference. The same going for them dealing with someone and money transactions that could be fraud and dangerous to them as well as any merchants. US banks keep your information on file when you close an account.

Did you request a check sent to you by mail to avoid the debit card issue you seem to be having? Have you spoken with PayPal's fraud department also, they have different solutions.

[Malanya]

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

As far as switching to Google, that's going from the frying pan into the fire as far as I am concerned.  I would never give them any RL let alone bank information.  I work very hard at keeping any RL information about me off the net and only give it to companies that keep it totally confidential.  If you google my RL name, there is not one entry that will come up about RL me.  I actually google myself periodically to be sure. 

I don't use facebook, twitter or any of those types of sites for just this reason.  The last thing I'd do is share any RL information with Google.

---

Neither do I.

[Mannie Clowes]

paypal has been a nightmare for me also, my paypal account is permanently limited because apparently i made transactions that broke there terms of service, however when they gave me the transaction ID's for the offending transactions they didn't exist. that didn't stop my ignoring me when i informed them of that as they basically closed my account however

add to that LL wont recognise my card even exists i have no way to cash out should i want to.....and i have 60k worth of lindens that i want to. i dont understand why other popular e-wallet systems arn't used also like moneybookers/skrill. not as though there losing out by offering them

[KarenMichelle Lane]

What are you ranting about?

I've used PayPal as one of my payment  funding sources for my Real Life Business for over 8 years. They have been nothing but professional in all that time. The information you are being asked for it the same information I presented years ago when establishing my Business Account with PayPal. Now regular US-Based PayPal accounts are required to provide verified identification information.  It's about time.

Being able to bill my clients via an PayPal email invoice has been a boon for me. The bottom line is PayPal is an "Acquiring - Bank Company" from the definition I offer "The acquiring bank accepts the risk that the merchant will remain solvent over time, and thus has an incentive to take a keen interest in the merchant's products and business practices"

PayPal is Not a traditional Bank. It was founded as and is still a place for businesses and individuals to conduct business over the internet with emphasis of maintaining credit worthiness. As a self-owned business if you maintain a large PP account balance over time your credit worthiness goes up. It is not a free "checking" account. Credit worthiness is earned by consistent use and a minimum of transaction reversals.

As they have expended their services over the years I've started to use them as one of my [and not my only] merchant payment companies to accept VISA & M/C cards as well. I want to do business / expand my services to private individuals and this will help open that market to me and also provide added security to make sure that those funds are mine to keep when I accept a PP payment from a new client.

So because you are asked to provide verifiable information to PP you think this is unprofessional? Really?

A PayPal debit card is NOT an acceptable "Bank Funded" source in the eyes of Linden Research. PayPal is not a bank.

That Linden Research accepts a fully verified PayPal account backed up by a real world bank account is a good thing in my eyes. To me this means in SL that I'm way less likely to see one of those "Adjustments" to my Linden Dollar balance because of fraud and theft of another's account in payment to me.

Real World banks are now able to process check and debit transactions nightly and clear "Completely" nightly. That took over 50 years to become a reality. The whole transaction verification process is so very complicated and that is what most people don't understand.  A single debit between your gas station and the funding bank has several communication and verification steps in it before the funds are locked, sent and in the hands of the gas station owning company. I for one will be happier if and when all my PayPal transactions can clear in 5 or less days. But I digress.

As for PayPal Customer Support, I've had only 3 occasions over these past 8 years to deal with them. On all 3 of these occasions the email/problem support method did the trick nicely.

Now mind you, my life doesn't depend on immediate access to the funds in my PayPal business account. I know how to budget my life and expenses. So when I transfer funds from PayPal, I learned a long time ago that non "brick & mortar" institutions all require lead time to complete fund transfers. It's been this way for all my experience and still is.

In the world outside of SecondLife, all internet based financial institutions are going through this increase in security awareness and record keeping requirements. Many are instituting 2 factor identification as well and it's about time.

 

 

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

When I worked in retail we used to always ask people for ID when using a check to make a purchase.  Occasionally we would get the person who acted all indignant, like we were questioning their honesty.  Sorry, no ID, no take your check.  Protected us and secondarily protected you.  How would you like to suddenly find that someone else had written a check on your account and now you don't have your rent money?

One day I was at a Branch in another city I had never been before cashing a check for $500.00.  And the Teller didn't ask for my ID.  I raised a fuss with the Branch Manager because that Teller failed to protect MY money.  Sure the Bank probably would have made good on it if it was a stolen check, etc, but I still would have had the hassle of dealing with it.

---

Had all my financial information stolen in a snatch and grab some years ago. The very next day... I got a phone call from a place where somebody tried to use that information, without an ID.

So this is one case where I will say thank you to businesses like the one you used to work at and thank you for the opinion you have here. People with your stance on this issue saved me a LOT of money and hassle - I was able to get all my funds locked down, and my information protected, while the person who had called me that day got to see someone at the counter where they worked run out of there in a rush.

a PS: put your purse down even in a restaurant, even onto the chair you're sitting on, at your own risk.

 

I have filed a dispute with Paypal before and gotten a favorable resultion. Took a bit of time though. Have also had one where it was never resolved, but my account remained good after I gave up on it.

As for Bitcoin - that thing is so riddled with fraud and laundering I'd trust a Mobster with a crack addiction first. Bitcoin is basically the international service of criminal and extremist organizations, or so governments claim. Which means its either corrupt beyond repair, or has a massive target sign on it from Big Players looking to take it out. Either way: not a safe place to put one's funds.

 

 

[Phil Deakins]

The simple answer to your question is - because LL doesn't like doing anything for their paying customers that they don't have to do. They used to pay out directly into bank accounts but decided to stop doing that. It wasn't much of a task but they just didn't want to do it. So they put a minimum of US$10,000 that they would pay directly into a bank account. They didn't want to do it for that amount either but they didn't want to upset the really big players even more.

Once you understand that LL does nothing for their paying customers that they don't have to do, you'll understand much more about SL and LL.