Do I Pay For Grey Avatars?

[Rudy Schwartzman]

The non-rendering objects problem does appear to be the bug in which a right-click on the object (assuming you know where it should be) restores it to visibility instantly. I just confirmed it with some landscape objects near my home.

 

[Duckie Dickins]

Maybe I need to clarify a little better. I was brief because I was posting via android tablet. Things started going south as far as texture loading when this was pushed to the main server release

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Server/13#13.04.05.273580

Add that on top of a new firestorm release, the texture issue isn't just the server. It is partially a firestorm issue due to the preparation of server side baking and partially a server issue with the changes in http texture fetching as well as andrew linden's interestlist project which is suppose to get rendering priority to what's in your field of view and less priority to whatever is behind you and out of view.

Firestorm comes with HTTP texture fetching on by default. It has been the default for quite a few versions and in the past it was actually faster than the normal UDP method which they were using. However, with the recent changes we have seen the reverse in many cases where the UDP method is now actually faster. It could also be that with the move to HTTP texture fetching that now those services are more bogged down than the UDP services.

I was merely offering my observations which seemed to fixed my issue. It was most apparent when I updated to 4.4 but it could also be that the version update coincided with server side changes which is why going back to 4.3 doesn't fix the issue.

[Rudy Schwartzman]

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Syo Emerald wrote:

Also...speaking of paying for something...playing that card is lame. You can do that other games, where you are actually forced to pay to play...but premium membership doesn't include any magical promise that third party viewer (!) and your own internet connection will bring up great results, especially in an invironment made by users.

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I don't understand the logic.

I do pay for my account. I expect that a quid pro quo does exist between me and Linden Labs. I pay. They deliver a service.

On the contrary, one who doe not pay has not reason to complain, since they exchange nothing in return for any service.

 

[Alicia Sautereau]

Expectations and reality are not the same

[Solar Legion]

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Rudy Schwartzman wrote:

I know what I'm talking about and I know the difference between kilobytes per second and kilobits per second and my network connection gives me a reliable, sustained 800+ KBytes per second end-to-end.

My in-house network from the DSL modem to the computer on which I run Firestorm is cabled gigabit Ethernet.

I've used the speed test sites (several of them) many times. Just now it reports 7.06 Mbps.

 

Now can we dispense with the suggestion that this is a network capacity problem at my end?

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If you knrew what you were talking about, you'd know that setting Second Life's network bandwidth beyond 1500 kbps is detrimental to performance.

My own ISP network clocks in well beyond what you have listed your own as. Guess what? Beyond 1500 kbps causes problems.

All of the network based software I have ever used tells the end user in the documentation do not set bandwidth anywjere near maximum, even if your network is rated above that setting. The only exceptions to this being download managers and the like.

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Rudy Schwartzman wrote:

I know what I'm talking about and I know the difference between kilobytes per second and kilobits per second and my network connection gives me a reliable, sustained 800+ KBytes per second end-to-end.

My in-house network from the DSL modem to the computer on which I run Firestorm is cabled gigabit Ethernet.

I've used the speed test sites (several of them) many times. Just now it reports 7.06 Mbps.

 

Now can we dispense with the suggestion that this is a network capacity problem at my end?

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Now that you're no longer describing your connection speed in furlongs per fortnight we can dispense with the suggestion that the problem is your connection SPEED. However, that still leaves the apparent problem your setup has handling HTTP textures.

Try the suggestions on this page:

http://wiki.phoenixviewer.com/http_fetching_issues

Also add your comments with your hardware specs, especially the brand and model of modem and/or router, to this Firestorm JIRA -

http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-10020

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Knutz Scorpio]

My two guesses:

1. The good old "try clearing your viewer's cache"

2. Power off the DSL modem/router for a couple of minutes to reboot it, more then a couple of times this has cleared up network weirdness for me.

[Rhys Goode]

I travel a fair bit and sign onto SL from many different routers in hotels, and campgrounds around the US.  Typically using wifi.  And one thing I have found is that the bandwidth of the connection is a poor predictor of SL performance.  Oh, if Speedtest.net shows you with less than about 0.5 Mbts, then you know that nothing will help.  But I have seen plenty of connections that test out at 10 Mbps but are totaly unusable for SL (unless you like lag, rubber banding, and gray avatars).  For me, the key indicator is the packet loss I experience in-game.  You can see yours from Help>About, its at the bottom of the report.  More than about 1% packet loss, and things rapidly go downhill.  And for me the cure to such symptoms is my 4-G wireless modem.  When I am stuck with a bad public connection, and want to get rid of gray avatars, I switch to my wireless modem, and usually everything is fine.  It costs $10/Gigabyte to use it, but it gets the gray out everytime.

For what its worth, that has been my experience, and it is why I usually suspect something in the network connection when someone sees really bad SL performance from a machine that is cabable of running SL.

[Ceka Cianci]

i haven't read the thread but just gonna put up what it sounds like it may be,,

 

if this started after a viewer install..

you m may want to do a clean new install and make sure you get rid of all of the old directories  related and of other old viewers..

usually in user/appdata then check all those folders for more viewer directories..

 

those can bog you down..

if things were fine before you installed the new one and now both the old and the new viewer act this way..it's a good chance a full manual clean uninstall and install were not done..

 

[Ceka Cianci]

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Rudy Schwartzman wrote:

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Syo Emerald wrote:

Also...speaking of paying for something...playing that card is lame. You can do that other games, where you are actually forced to pay to play...but premium membership doesn't include any magical promise that third party viewer (!) and your own internet connection will bring up great results, especially in an invironment made by users.

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I don't understand the logic.

I do pay for my account. I expect that a quid pro quo does exist between me and Linden Labs. I pay. They deliver a service.

On the contrary, one who doe not pay has not reason to complain, since they exchange nothing in return for any service.

 

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the only bad thing about this situation is that if it is a viewer problem..

you are on firestorm..

LL doesn't support firestorm.. so their customer service couldn't help  you with thier viewer problems..

only when you switched over to LL's viewer would you get their support in vewer support..

 

that's really the only bad thing about being premium and using 3rd party viewers..you lose part of the customer service..

but 3rd party viewers are worth it...so it evens out..and the viewer you are using has a pretty good support system..

so to get any help on something like that..you would have to be on the LL viewer having the same problems..which from the sounds of it..might happen..

 

unless it has anything to do with the install of the other viewers..

you may have done a manual clean uninstall and install..but it's always good to bring it up anyways in case someone hasn't

[Conifer Dada]

It seems to me that the deterioration in SL performance has gone hand-in-hand with the rise in the adoption of mesh clothing, hair etc. Don't get me wrong - I'm all for mesh, I often wear mesh stuff myself.  But..........

I'll explain...   I arrived at a busy club recently and was greeted by the usual sight - lots of half-naked, half transparent bald people - plus other grey people and everyone moving without animations working, like chess pieces on a chess board, sort of thing.

So I set my viewer to 'wireframe' and was astonished to see that some items of mesh clothing had so many polygons that they still looked solid unless you went really close up.  Most of the avatars had a draw weight in the red - over 100,000 - and the ones with the fine mesh seemed to have the highest draw weight - one was over 250,000.  My draw weight at the time was in the green - 12,000 - and that was with mesh trainers and mesh skirt.

So is the problem that vendors are selling mesh clothes in SL that use much finer mesh than is needed, even for good detail, and this is something LL hadn't allowed for?

 

[Baloo Uriza]

You pay for land.  Any viewer issues you're having, especially with third party viewers, is your problem.

[Rudy Schwartzman]

It would be much more accurate to say I pay for simulator resources. And it's pretty clear I'm not getting them.

 

[Peggy Paperdoll]

But you are getting those simulator resources.  Something in your system is not handling those resources quite like it should.  In real life you might own a home.  You pay taxes for city resources (roads, fire protection, police protection, educational opportunities, ect.).  You also have water, sewer, and waste pick-up.  But, let's say your water pressure is low and all your neighbors' pressure is fine.  The city claims it has no leaks and the water pressure on it's system is at the proper level.  But you don't believe them because it can't be a leak on your property because you have a new plumbing system recently installed and it's the best plumbing company in the county........it has to be the city's problem.  You ask friends why you should pay the city taxes or water bill when every time you water your lawn you can't take a shower because the water just trickles out the shower head and your sprinklers dwindle down to drips.  Everyone tells you to check your plumbing and you claim it's fine and refuse to accept that the problem is very likely in your system........you even argue with them about it.

You're problem ain't going to get fixed and your water pressure is going to be low.........and you're going to be mad.  What do you want the city to do?  Come and do what you are responsible to do?  You know that isn't going to happen..........just like LL is going to do nothing for your rezzing issues.  It's on your end.  It's your responsibility.  You are the one who needs to fix the problem.

You've had some good suggestions in this thread.  I still think it's your bandwidth speed.  But you insist on discounting that so lets say it's fine......someone mentioned packet loss.  Packet loss can cause all kinds of issues........including disconnects from the servers and even crashes.  And, yes, it also can cause things not to rezz in SL.  1% jacket loss is enough to cause noticeable issues.  2% can get you disconnected from the servers.  3% will often not even allow you to connect to the servers at all.  It don't take much.........and the sources of packet loss are as limitless as the Internet.  What is your packet loss?  Do you know?  Did you check?

Or do you just want to continue to complain?

[Phil Deakins]

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Rudy Schwartzman wrote:

It would be much more accurate to say I pay for simulator resources. And it's pretty clear I'm not getting them. 

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I can't offer any suggestions on how to fix your problem. What I can say has already been said, but I'll say it again anyway, just to emphasise it...

If your problem isn't simply the known bug, where right-clicking causes the invisible object to suddenly appear, then you are the only one reporting the problem, which means that the cause of it is at your end - that's obvious. Continuing to believe that the cause isn't at your end, and looking for the fix at LL's end won't get it fixed. That's also obvious.

[jwenting]

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

It sounds like there are two basic possibilities:

1) You are getting not 800 kiloBYTES per second but 800 kiloBITS per second, and you have a not-very-good router. This is what I'd expect to see with DSL.

2) You actually HAVE upgraded your DSL to the point that you actually can GET the 6400 kilobits per second you say you're getting but you have a HORRIBLE router, at least in how it handles multiple HTTP connections..

If you're consistently seeing avatars not having their textures loading that's a connection issue plain and simple. Last night I was at a club with over 40 avatars and my Popular Mechanix sub-2000 kbps cable connection and $69 Wal-Mart cable modem rendered everyone in a few minutes. Turning off HTTP textures may help in the short term but more and more things are moving over to HTTP so you should try to get the problems it sounds like you're having with HTTP textures addressed.

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To add some to this: routers often have a maximum bandwidth at which they will function properly.

If your actual supplied connection is faster than that, they start to become unreliable, dropping packages, sometimes crashing.

You might check with your ISP for a new model router (I know mine will send me one for free whenever I want if I extend my contract by another year, not a bad deal as I've been with them for over a decade and see no reason to switch now).

Also check your network cables. (Old) cables with sharp bends and loose connectors can cause trouble as well.

If you use WiFi, make sure you have a good connection too. Sometimes neighbours on the same channel can cause so much noise that your connection (despite seeming good) is unreliable.

[jwenting]

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Rudy Schwartzman wrote:

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Syo Emerald wrote:

Also...speaking of paying for something...playing that card is lame. You can do that other games, where you are actually forced to pay to play...but premium membership doesn't include any magical promise that third party viewer (!) and your own internet connection will bring up great results, especially in an invironment made by users.

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I don't understand the logic.

I do pay for my account. I expect that a quid pro quo does exist between me and Linden Labs. I pay. They deliver a service.

On the contrary, one who doe not pay has not reason to complain, since they exchange nothing in return for any service.

 

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you mean you don't want to understand that the problem lies (mainly) not with LL but with either your network, your computer, your 3rd party viewer, and/or your internet connection.

Your premium account is not going to pay for any of those.

[Rudy Schwartzman]

Then explain to me why the only thing that changed in the equation was time.

But never mind. I shan't trouble you all any more. This is the most unhelpful bunch of people I've encountered on line... well, ever. It's good to see "blame the victim" is a live and well.

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Rudy Schwartzman wrote:

Then explain to me why the only thing that changed in the equation was time.

 

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Linden Lab changed how they send HTTP information to viewers a month or so ago; it actually improved performance for most people. For you, apparently, it didn't. Also a  number of third-party viewers defaulted to having HTTP textures switched off until recently, but server-side baking will make heavy use of HTTP so they changed their defaults.

[Baloo Uriza]

You might want to take a different approach to how you ask people online in the future.  The answers you received were based on the premise you presented.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

But never mind. I shan't trouble you all any more. This is the most unhelpful bunch of people I've encountered on line... well, ever. It's good to see "blame the victim" is a live and well.

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So now poor Rudy is a victim and everyone is blaming the victim.  How about Rudy is too hard headed or too ignorant or lacks enough common sense to see that when the whole world appears to be upside down it just might be time to stand up on your feet?  No one is blaming you for anything except that you are not accepting the help that has been offered.  You are convinced it's LL's problem, even when all the evidence and facts say something else.  Sometimes victims are victims by choice.

[Suspiria Finucane]

 

[Perrie Juran]

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

 

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One of the problems is that the three most talked about problems right now, grey avatars, objects not rendering, and running out of texture memory have spanned the whole spectrum of cards from budget to high end.  There is no guarantee that a high end card will not have a problem.

[Suspiria Finucane]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

 

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One of the problems is that the three most talked about problems right now, grey avatars, objects not rendering, and running out of texture memory have spanned the whole spectrum of cards from budget to high end.  There is no guarantee that a high end card will not have a problem.

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Just me but I've always used high end comps and of course the LL viewer. I've never had any of those problems in 6 1/2 years. I must be special or something :matte-motes-wink:

[Sylver Qunhua]

In my personal opinion and some trouble shooting with process of ellimination, what alot of people are experiencing is GRIEFING by the use of illegal copybot viewers . these ilegal viewer users are in edit mode on an avatars attachments and sending data floods to it allocating all the avatars resounrsces and rendering lagg conditions and grey texturing. This is my own personal observation. Som cases may be the viewer bug , but when u have this on multiple viewers it is probably grifing and /or slow connection or not enough graphic card mememory. Most likely grifers in edit mode on an avatars attachments