LL Reaches Out on PBR

[Zalificent Corvinus]

6 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

For example, here is a texture being sold on the marketplace as PBR Second Life Marketplace - (TI) PBR Concrete (Paneling). Sure looks fine but there is a problem. Read the description and you will see no mention of 'need to set up reflection probe' for it to look better than old texturing methods.

My goto texture maker on the MP, has started making PBR. So far they have made over 100.

None of them are concrete. They are mostly metal/glass/stone/wood, surfaces that might be expected to have a polished finish, with those fancy PBR reflection effects.

They do make concrete packs, lots of them, all Blinn-Phong, because, there's NO significant advantage to using PBR for those, in SL.

 

6 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

The end result is that you get exactly as what those pictures showed. Absolutely no difference from Blinn-phong for the average user

^^^ THIS ^^^

 

9 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

When you say it "You can't tell the difference from Blinn-Phong unless you do X..." also mean that,

1) "It looks better than Blinn-Phong if you do X"

AND

1) "It looks as good as Blinn-Phong even if you don't do X"?

No.

It means that thanks to the busted ass tone mapping and the substandard new render engine, non-shiny, non-metallic Blinn-Phong now looks as bad as non-shiny, non-metallic PBR without scrr*wing about with PBR lag-probes.

And that the shiny metal PBR is the ONLY thing that looks better, and not by a sufficient amount to justify all the rest looking like de-saturated, over contrasted, plastic coated sh*te, and the need to add custom PBRR Lag-probes to every location on every parcel on 28,000 regions.

 

Which, frankly isn't going to happen any time in the next DECADE.

 

 

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And they now can. They can use the pre-PBR Firestorm forever! Or Henri's viewer, or other TPVs that haven't updated.

So, what exactly is the problem?

What a familiar-sounding question...

[KanryDrago]

7 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

What a familiar-sounding question...

The problem will come of course when LL add something those users do want but only the PBR viewers get updated to work with it even though the new feature has nothing to do with PBR

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And they now can. They can use the pre-PBR Firestorm forever! Or Henri's viewer, or other TPVs that haven't updated.

So, what exactly is the problem?

The problem?

 

"Coming Sort-Of-Soon-ish (tm) from Loser Lab.

An exciting new range of un-wanted, un-needed, and badly implemented new anti-features designed to p*ss down the backs of YOU, the paying customer, while telling you it's raining!

PBR Terrain. WE LIED to you when we said we needed PBR to improve terrain mapping to a level that's STILL lower than a popular computer game from 2012, but soon, all the terrain will be blank and white, for all the nay sayers who refuse to use our broken PBR Fail Viewer, or approved butt crack kissing TPV's.

PBR BoM, we all know it will be another fustercluck, especially the layering of normals, and roughness and metalness, but even better, all those nay sayers with their filthy non-butt crack licking TPV's, will see all avatars that were BoM baked, as blank white figures.

Soon thanks to the miracle of inappropriately applied technology, we here at Loser Lab will reach out and ruin the appearance of SL, not just in a minor way for those who drink the PBR Kool-aid, but in a major way for all the rebel scum, hiding behind non-PBR option viewers!

This has been a Loser Lab Public Dis-Service Announcement!"

Edited August 27 by Zalificent Corvinus

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

 

PBR BoM, we all know it will be another fustercluck, especially the layering of normals, and roughness and metalness,

Sounds remarkably like what I was saying when people said that BoM would never catch on because it didn't include normal and specular maps. And we all know that BoM didn't...

 

... oh, wait!

[AnnabelleApocalypse]

The biggest "thing" for me in this whole debacle is - Its a LOT of additional effort and messing around for.......slightly nicer shadows and reflections. The effort required seems to far, far outweigh the payoff.

 

The best thing they could have done is keep this in the oven a bit longer. In principle, its a nice update but in practice its a fustercluck.

 

Elsewhere on the forums I have been asking for help with a PBR grass texture and my + the collective conclusion seems to be "yeah PBR (the broken, not actually PBR we have in SL now) as it currently stands sucks for this application, better to keep using Blinn-Phong for that".

 

Its taken several DAYS for me to tinker, google, watch tutorials, ask questions and come to that conclusion. For a single grass texture. This is more effort than its worth and more than the average user is going to put in.

 

But the more I thought about it, the more I came to the conclusion (IMHO) that the average SL user just WONT do this.

 

Lets say you rent a homestead (like me) and you want to do a PBR update (also like me 2 weeks ago). BP textures already look pretty nice under the new daylight model we have, no probes needed.

 

So, am I now going to COVER my sim in reflection probes, update ALL the textures and/or replace content just so I can have slightly more accurate specularity on my trees/grass/plants? No, no I am not.

 

I think also a lot of people dont seem to realize that unless your object has metallicity, there is very little (possibly zero) benefit in updating to PBR textures vs BP. Things like grass, bark, concrete just dont really need it. Why add significant extra texture load for minimal benefit?

 

EDIT - If PBR worked as intended elsewhere - adding these additional maps WOULD be beneficial, but as the lighting model in SL stands, its not.

 

PBR terrain textures seem to be a massive red herring. Totally unnecessary as things stand. BP textures with a subtle specular map is all that's needed.

Edited August 27 by AnnabelleApocalypse

[Extrude Ragu]

@WeFlossDaily

You were on a Ryzen chip right? Might be worth watching for this Windows update:-

 

Quote

AMD promised that Microsoft’s upcoming 24H2 update to Windows 11 would improve performance for its new Ryzen 9000 series CPUs, but it’s also giving a significant boost to some older Ryzen CPUs. Hardware Unboxed has tested the Zen 4-based Ryzen 7 7700X and the new Ryzen 7 9700X (Zen 5) on both Windows 11 version 23H2 and 24H2 and found a significant performance increase thanks to Microsoft’s OS update.

Quote

On average, Hardware Unboxed found an improvement of 10 percent across multiple games running at 1080p resolution on the older Ryzen 7700X running Windows 11 version 24H2. On the latest Ryzen 9700X, Windows 11 24H2 provides an 11 percent performance improvement on average in the same game tests. KitGuru has also tested AMD’s best gaming CPU, the 7800X3D, and found similar increases in some games, alongside improvements to the older Ryzen 9 7950X thanks to Windows 11 version 24H2.

https://www.theverge.com/2024/8/27/24229443/microsoft-windows-11-update-24h2-ryzen-cpu-performance-improvement

[Zalificent Corvinus]

8 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Windows 11

8 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Windows 11

9 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Windows 11

9 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Windows 11

 

9 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Might be worth watching for this Windows update

Only if you ASSUME they are running windows 11, but seriously, why would sane people do that?

 

[Marianne Little]

We should not be forced to use reflection probes, to make PBR look good.

We should see PBR as it is meant to be, without having to make reflection probes, as @AnnabelleApocalypsehave to do on her homestead. That is too much to ask of us. I do not want to spend time on it, because I think LL should have done it for me, made an enviroment where PBR look right.

I do not hate PBR, but frankly, the grass, moss and other nature textures in my Studio-Skye building packs look better than their Zen deck building set in only PBR. Polished granite, lacquered wood look good in the set, but the more I look at the moss, I prefer how Blinn-Phong textures look.

 

[Charlotte Bartlett]

8 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

That sounds more like the process of "merchanting" than "crafting" to me.  My creative process consists of making a thing that I like, uploading it and then probably handing it out for free to any friends, etc. who may appreciate it.

 

There's the ugly truth.  Mesh didn't kill the fun of in-world building, it was the notion that everyone could come to SL and become rich by creating and selling things that really caused the dissatisfaction that most now express.  Whenever the discussion comes up you'll find far more people complaining that "prims don't sell as well" than you do saying "prims aren't as much fun anymore".

 

Anyway, you're probably right that SL is never going to return to the days of people creating just for fun which means the only creators they're likely to attract will just be more opportunists trying to make some easy money, fewer and fewer of whom will stick around as they realise that SL just doesn't have enough consumers left to make it worth their while, such a shame!

Sorry I do have to disagree with paragraph two (sorry!) I have a different viewpoint that this is squarely on mesh and not the Lindex.  Even during the "brands" years when they hired prim slingers to create things, it did not disrupt crafting nor those crafters selling their prim creations.  Cashing out did change the platform but it still required you to create within the platform, be on the platform etc.    Mesh was a huge disrupter and it has consequences that directly tie to the reduction of engagement and on platform time for users.  I would argue the Lindex is actually was a benefit and helps people stay in world so directly ties to increasing the ability of people to have on platform time..  

 

[AnnabelleApocalypse]

33 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

I do not hate PBR, but frankly, the grass, moss and other nature textures in my Studio-Skye building packs look better than their Zen deck building set in only PBR. Polished granite, lacquered wood look good in the set, but the more I look at the moss, I prefer how Blinn-Phong textures look.

Exactly my conclusion too. I tried the new Skye texture bundles and really liked all the textures where you would expect reflectivity, but ALL the natural terrain textures looked "shrink-wrapped" in plastic. it might be "correct" technically, but artistically, in the context of Second Lifes current lighting model - they look like ass.

No disrespect to Skye, long may he reign. But if one of our most talented content creators cant make it look good, were all in trouble.

I was going to just carry on using my BP textures, but what is all this talk of eventually everything appearing white/blank? What fresh hell is this?

Don't you DARE turn off BP textures LL. Even you cant be that stupid. They work, leave them alone! If they do that - and invalidate 20 years of content - I wont be hanging around.

Edited August 27 by AnnabelleApocalypse

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

3 minutes ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

Sorry I do have to disagree with paragraph two (sorry!) I have a different viewpoint

Absolutely no reason to apologise for having your own viewpoint.  Having a civil difference of opinion is how we learn to see things from perspectives other than our own.

 

7 minutes ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

that this is squarely on mesh and not the Lindex.  Even during the "brands" years when they hired prim slingers to create things, it did not disrupt crafting nor those crafters selling their prim creations.  Cashing out did change the platform but it still required you to create within the platform, be on the platform etc.

Well the luring of brands to SL with the promise of state of the art virtual business centers bustling with life and prospective customers wouldn't really have had any impact on in-world creation anyway (in fact quite the opposite because it was yet another lure for new creators to join the platform in the hope of making money catering to those brands looking to establish a presence in SL).

10 minutes ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

Mesh was a huge disrupter and it has consequences that directly tie to the reduction of engagement and on platform time for users.

I'd argue that sculpted prims were a bigger disrupter since they were the first step in forcing part of the content creation process to occur off-platform.  Mesh was just the next logical step once LL realised that people were using sculpted prims as building blocks because they had more potential (not only for organic shapes but also in efficiency vs prims since eventually people learned to make more complex objects from a single sculpted prim). 

LL themselves have in the past said they had expected the main use of mesh would be for the same purpose, to make cool building components (and thereby increase the versatility of crafting in-world).  Unfortunately it didn't work out that way because a lot of customers simply weren't interested in crafting things for themselves and, from a merchants perspective, providing endless variations of prefabs was a lot more profitable in the long term than providing residents with the building blocks necessary to create their own content.

 

19 minutes ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

I would argue the Lindex is actually was a benefit and helps people stay in world so directly ties to increasing the ability of people to have on platform time..  

The Lindex is pretty much what keeps SL alive.  I'm not knocking anyone that produces things and expects to be compensated for their time and effort, consumerism has always been an essential component of SL, but I do think that there are better ways to incorporate mesh into SL than just selling people prefabs and, while you may be right that the vast majority of people don't have any interest in creating things anymore, I've seen enough people lamenting the demise of crafting to believe that, if they had the assets available, at least some of them would find there's still a lot of fun to be had crafting with mesh shapes (just as there was with sculpted prims).

[Paul Hexem]

1 hour ago, AnnabelleApocalypse said:

The biggest "thing" for me in this whole debacle is - Its a LOT of additional effort and messing around for.......slightly nicer shadows and reflections. The effort required seems to far, far outweigh the payoff.

Of course the addition of PBR looks bad when you're limited to such a shortsighted view, or like others in this thread think it's just about mirrors.

Everybody seems to be skipping over the fact that this is just the first step in a serious modernization of all the creation processes in SL. PBR, gLTF, LUA code... These are all pieces of a much larger puzzle.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Paul Hexem said:

Of course the addition of PBR looks bad when you're limited to such a shortsighted view, or like others in this thread think it's just about mirrors.

Everybody seems to be skipping over the fact that this is just the first step in a serious modernization of all the creation processes in SL. PBR, gLTF, LUA code... These are all pieces of a much larger puzzle.

I think a lot of people also only try PBR with "default" lighting - without either using more modern / PBR EEP settings, or even without the basics - tweaking the 2 EEP settings that "fix" a lot for Personal Lighting.  Doing this really opened my eyes.

I still am confused at posts that seem to deny there ARE "automatic probes" (posts that are not about mirrors).

 

[Charlotte Bartlett]

4 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And they now can. They can use the pre-PBR Firestorm forever! Or Henri's viewer, or other TPVs that haven't updated.

So, what exactly is the problem?

I would like any TPV who are providing a viewer off label after the 3 releases have cycled to provide metrics on unique users numbers (no identifying information just a number).  LL should be asking for this too and sharing with the community,  as it fractures the policy and intention around why viewers are disconnected.

I am pro people not losing access to SL (before the statement above gives the opposite impression) for all the reasons I have been mentioning in my mini novels this week.

However, I do have self interest in knowing what the numbers are.  This is so I and other creators can plan accordingly.  
The original plan was by end of this year dual workflows would ramp down.  I went into significant testing on PBR last year with this goal in mind and made decisions based on the timeline and 3 release policy.  The light at the end of the tunnel better be a light and not a train heading for us.  

With TPV off label viewers will it be 10 or 1000 users in 2025.    Dependent on numbers, it does impact how workflows are managed for new content.  I personally do not want to cut off customers from new content "forever", but we need to know scale of users having to resort to off label to connect from Jan 2025,  so we can make timing decisions based on impact to folk on a monthly basis.  

I did a mini test on my last release I didn't market it had legacy bp textures included (it did and most people who know what I do or follow my group know I committed to include legacy during the 3 release cycle).  It sold 42% less than other releases despite traffic being on par with normal and being wildly popular with customers.  In fact, many customers who could see the demo on non PBR viewers, didn't realise that meant they were good to purchase (the sign said legacy too).   It was quite eye opening as it shows the numbers may not be minor at all. 

LL could do well with monthly metrics to see what viewers are connecting to the grid and publishing. In fact this is the minimum they should be doing.  Again they do not need to provide the community the TPV names, and just have generic but enough so people can understand adoption.

I am also doing customer surveys but they only go so far as not all of SL is a current customer, but more so are a potential customer who I don't have reach to like LL or a TPV. 


 

[Flea Yatsenko]

9 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

I think it is a perfect example of PBR as it is now and what to expect in the future for a very-very long time.

As you correctly stated there are no reflection probes in there and that is precisely the problem of PBR.

Second Life and its users have over 20 years experience in texturing and 10-13ish years in simple Blinn-phong texturing. It also had the benefit of been completely user friendly. You buy a texture drag and drop it on the build menu texture squares and it worked. Yes you needed ALM on to see said Normal/Speclar results but that was a simple toggle. Even any new person would expect a buy it and it works system. They wouldn't (and shouldn't be expected to) need to add their own probes everywhere or even need to know they need to.

Then you have new users that also have no idea what a reflection probe is and expect like any other game that allows custom building and what have you, to simply buy the object and it looks as expected.

That's what people are used to and that is what people want. A simple two or three step process that is easy to understand and easy to implement. Instead they now have to worry about probes, their location, making them just the right size and adding multiple probes to a scene to get the right look etc. No average user is going to do that and no average user even knows they need to do that.

For example, here is a texture being sold on the marketplace as PBR Second Life Marketplace - (TI) PBR Concrete (Paneling). Sure looks fine but there is a problem. Read the description and you will see no mention of 'need to set up reflection probe' for it to look better than old texturing methods. The same goes for the ever increasing PBR objects on MP where once again, no mention of reflection probes or their need. All they ever say is need a PBR compatible viewer.

I could also probably say with some degree of confidence that most of those texturing sellers and/or object makers also have no idea that you need reflection probes as well set up to make them look better than Blinn-phong.

The end result is that you get exactly as what those pictures showed. Absolutely no difference from Blinn-phong for the average user except a difference in appearance to the tone, shading, anti-aliasing, shadow, water, sky, etc. This is also what you are going to keep seeing.

This not even getting into the whole process of how to texture now. For an example here is the mesh/texturing wiki page Texturing a mesh - Second Life Wiki . Whilst it is simple and lacks a little bit of info or pictures it is pretty much as it says. Upload, drag and drop.

Now here is the wiki for adding a texture for PBR PBR Materials - Second Life Wiki . See the difference? Not only does the average/new SL user now need to know technical terms for the old texturing method they have never heard of, they also need to read an essay on how to texture, how to do reflection probes, why you need reflection probes,  etc.

tl/dr: keep expecting to see exactly what is in those pictures with no reflection probes as the average user buying all these fancy new materials have no idea that it isnt anything like drag and drop/place per the old method over 20 years.

:ETA:

Additionally, it is bad enough to get objects, houses etc with lighting done correctly using the ambiance, fade, FOV, light shape texture, etc options that are there, with most creators just clicking the light tickbox and colour and calling it a day. Yet people and LL now expect these same creators to bother to set up reflection probes correctly with similar options? I have a bridge to sell you...

BP had plenty of problems with people not reading the manual and not using alpha channels and stuff right. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of DirectX format normalmaps all over SL (You are supposed to use OpenGL format for SL but a lot of stuff on the internet is for DirectX since it's more of an industry standard now).

Reflection probes not being set up is going to be the new improperly set up spec/norm alphas (and maybe even flipped DX normals instead of OpenGL).

If you are making interior spaces and you do not actively think about filling the area with cube or sphere reflection probes you are going to have a bad time. It should be the creator's responsibility to set up reflection probes for customers. One of the best ways to learn is to study an example and getting a proper reflection probe build and dissecting is is a great place to start.

[AnnabelleApocalypse]

22 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Of course the addition of PBR looks bad when you're limited to such a shortsighted view, or like others in this thread think it's just about mirrors.

Everybody seems to be skipping over the fact that this is just the first step in a serious modernization of all the creation processes in SL. PBR, gLTF, LUA code... These are all pieces of a much larger puzzle.

My apologies, I guess Im just too dense to see "The Vision". Stupid me. But I also think your deluded if you think the average resident gives a flip about that.

Think you might also have skipped this part of what I was saying:

1 hour ago, AnnabelleApocalypse said:

The best thing they could have done is keep this in the oven a bit longer. In principle, its a nice update but in practice its a fustercluck.

Finish the puzzle before you ask people to guess what the picture is supposed to be. Keep it in Beta till its ready. Ok, maybe you cant finish the WHOLE puzzle in one go, but at lease finish the section so it makes sense.

 Or are we supposed to deal with a borked, half-finished, buggy, poorly optimized mess for......? 6 months? A year? Longer?

On the promise that were just not seeing the big picture and it will be amazing in the future? So we should just keep paying our land fees an live in brokenville till LL get their moles in order?

Edited August 27 by AnnabelleApocalypse

[Charlotte Bartlett]

1 minute ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

BP had plenty of problems with people not reading the manual and not using alpha channels and stuff right. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of DirectX format normalmaps all over SL (You are supposed to use OpenGL format for SL but a lot of stuff on the internet is for DirectX since it's more of an industry standard now).

Reflection probes not being set up is going to be the new improperly set up spec/norm alphas (and maybe even flipped DX normals instead of OpenGL).

If you are making interior spaces and you do not actively think about filling the area with cube or sphere reflection probes you are going to have a bad time. It should be the creator's responsibility to set up reflection probes for customers. One of the best ways to learn is to study an example and getting a proper reflection probe build and dissecting is is a great place to start.

House sellers yes and we do this as it's like having needles poked in your eyes working with probes in a house.  I would not wish that on any customer.

Furniture sellers (some of them and a certain large well known one) have taken to also adding probes to every piece of furniture.

Combine those two.....   

[AmeliaJ08]

59 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

We should not be forced to use reflection probes, to make PBR look good.

That is impossible.

The engine has to know what it is supposed to be reflecting. You can of course automatically place probes (LL have done so) but this will always be imperfect, if you want the engine to have as accurate information as possible it is necessary to place probes.

It's not really painful, I'm not sure what is being considered so difficult about it either.

[KanryDrago]

1 minute ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

That is impossible.

The engine has to know what it is supposed to be reflecting. You can of course automatically place probes (LL have done so) but this will always be imperfect, if you want the engine to have as accurate information as possible it is necessary to place probes.

It's not really painful, I'm not sure what is being considered so difficult about it either.

Because most folk log in to socialise with friends not to fiddle around with probes. I suspect that now firestorm are keeping the non pbr viewer most won't switch over because its not worth the extra hassle. I know I certainly have no plan too as I perceive no need that PBR is going to fill for me.

Yes my machine could run PBR no problem, yes I am technical enough to work out how to set it up. I just won't bother however because it adds so little to my SL experience it just isn't worth it.

I suspect I am not the only one thinking so. My answer to sims that go all out PBR and just become white plyboard will be to stop going to them, same with people who want a comment on their spangly new PBR clothes I will say you are wearing white plywood clothing as far as I can see and if they don't like it well that isn't my problem.

Only time will tell if my prediction on people sticking with the old non PBR viewers is correct, if so we will no doubt see wails of "Why is my spangly new PBR sim empty and people are going to those older non updated sims"

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

Just now, KanryDrago said:

Because most folk log in to socialise with friends not to fiddle around with probes. I suspect that now firestorm are keeping the non pbr viewer most won't switch over because its not worth the extra hassle.

 

According to the chart posted by Firestorm, most people already have switched over.

[KanryDrago]

1 minute ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

According to the chart posted by Firestorm, most people already have switched over.

And I know several who are now switching back because of performance, now they are aware FS arent going to end life the non pbr viewer

[Paul Hexem]

21 minutes ago, AnnabelleApocalypse said:

Finish the puzzle before you ask people to guess what the picture is supposed to be. Keep it in Beta till its ready. Ok, maybe you cant finish the WHOLE puzzle in one go, but at lease finish the section so it makes sense.

 Or are we supposed to deal with a borked, half-finished, buggy, poorly optimized mess for......? 6 months? A year? Longer?

The point of using the word "puzzle" is that it's not complete out of the box, that's not how they work. You can't just roll it out when it's "all done". That's not how SL works. No live service works that way after initial release.

You roll out each feature as best you can. Granted LL is worse at it than the average developer, but if that's a surprise to you with PBR then you weren't here for BOM, mesh, ALM, sculpts, mono LSL, the Havok updates... Virtually anything LL has done ever.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

24 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

the first step in a serious modernization

24 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

LUA code

Modernisation? Lua code is even older than SL...

Seriously, go learn about things before you talk about them...

 

26 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

These are all pieces of a much larger puzzle.

And the puzzle is "Why do we need to 'modernise' creation", and you don't have an actual valid answer for that. Especially when the modernisations ae not that modern, why replace LSL, custom created to suit SL's needs, with an OLDER system, that doesn't fit SL's needs.

 

"But... But... Somebody told me Lua was the Futureness, so we must have it now!"

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

4 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

It's not really painful, I'm not sure what is being considered so difficult about it either.

I think it's because an average user who is just logging in to SL to chat, roleplay, or socialize likely wouldn't expect to have to set up their own environments manually. That's generally one of those backend functions a developer handles - players just log in and play the game.

Yeah, of course SL is entirely different because everything is 100% user-created, but if someone's not aware of how that works because they're so used to dev-made platforms/games, it's a bit of a shock.

I've been here on and off since 2005 and I personally have no desire to tinker with my environment on that level either. I do photography and interior/exterior home decorating here and this will severely impact both activities eventually. I'm just not feeling it.