Linden Lab your PBR is giving me a headache

[Count Burks]

Same lagoon using Firestorm non PBR

[Blaise Glendevon]

Content creator WARETA put out a quick, easily digestible PBR rundown on Youtube. This might help with some of your initial issues. Hope you find something useful in it.

 

 

[Prokofy Neva]

10 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

I went back to the pre-pbr viewer yesterday and going to stay there until it gets fixed.

PBR doesn't overheat my computer or anything, but it makes the world look ugly. Water in particular is broken and glitches with animated alpha textures like water.

If I was taking photos I suspect I could tweak settings to make things look good. But I don't. I mostly use region settings, it is land owners jobs to make EEPs and if the Lindens can't even get that right on mainland. Then I am not going to try and work it out for the parcels I run.

A key issue I see here is that the FS devs don't see this all as "a problem that needs fixing."

They aren't saying they are willing to change their code, offer the new viewer but with an explanation and option of how to turn PBR *off* (as Cool Viewer has), admit it's a genuine issue-- or anything.

Instead, like legions of Lindens in 21 years, they are sayin PICNIC -- "problem in chair, not in computer" -- or rather, if in the computer, it's "a computer ready to start kindergarden," as one Linden wag put it years ago, i.e. 5 years old.

It's being put back on the user, with no willingness to adjust. That means you can't wait for a "fix."

They aren't even willing to provide a free set of EEPs. Since I see free EEPs and cheap EEPs on Saturday sales all the time, I have to figure they are not THAT hard to make. LL could do the same, and put some in the library. 

 

Edited June 25 by Prokofy Neva

[DevlinMcDermott]

You should pay a visit to Lakeside Forest Sim World in the Adult section. The formerly crystal clear blue lake is in the middle of the park. Now, under PBR looks like Red Tide has infested the lake. Or worse, New York City's sewage system backed up into it. 

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, DevlinMcDermott said:

You should pay a visit to Lakeside Forest Sim World in the Adult section. The formerly crystal clear blue lake is in the middle of the park. Now, under PBR looks like Red Tide has infested the lake. Or worse, New York City's sewage system backed up into it. 

+1 for Realism! A bonus feature!

[Cube Republic]

On 6/24/2024 at 3:24 PM, Count Burks said:

I have an NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 6GB/PCIe/SSE2 can render this which should be more than plenty to handle Second Life graphics. Left is the 3GB version right is the 6GB version. It has nothing to do with my PC.

 

The 1060 is almost a decade old, it will have a hard time with SL

[Cube Republic]

2 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

A key issue I see here is that the FS devs don't see this all as "a problem that needs fixing."

They aren't saying they are willing to change their code, offer the new viewer but with an explanation and option of how to turn PBR *off* (as Cool Viewer has), admit it's a genuine issue-- or anything.

Instead, like legions of Lindens in 21 years, they are sayin PICNIC -- "problem in chair, not in computer" -- or rather, if in the computer, it's "a computer ready to start kindergarden," as one Linden wag put it years ago, i.e. 5 years old.

It's being put back on the user, with no willingness to adjust. That means you can't wait for a "fix."

They aren't even willing to provide a free set of EEPs. Since I see free EEPs and cheap EEPs on Saturday sales all the time, I have to figure they are not THAT hard to make. LL could do the same, and put some in the library. 

 

Nobody is going to turn PBR off. 

What will the viewer display if this is done? Are you suggesting content creators should run two pipelines in parallel because if it's turned off, as PBR is adopted by more creators, the models will just appear white. Also PBR land doesn't have a fallback textures, there's no way to turn off the materials on land, so if people were able to 'turn off PBR' then the land would just be a grey pancake. 

 

[Solar Legion]

8 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Yes, I've noticed that in past but it is usually a fairly simple endeavour to look back who it is your post was directed at, though not in this case. Hence the query.

Who has recently quoted me in this thread, prior to the response you're questioning?

[Prokofy Neva]

4 hours ago, Cube Republic said:

Nobody is going to turn PBR off. 

What will the viewer display if this is done? Are you suggesting content creators should run two pipelines in parallel because if it's turned off, as PBR is adopted by more creators, the models will just appear white. Also PBR land doesn't have a fallback textures, there's no way to turn off the materials on land, so if people were able to 'turn off PBR' then the land would just be a grey pancake. 

 

People are turning PBR off all over the place, either by using viewers that let you turn it off or by changing their settings even on Firestorm.

You'll be surprised how much the techs' minds are concentrated wonderfully when they see massive refusal to go along with this torture.

The fanboyz are not going to win this one, it goes too deep.

 

[Aethelwine]

I asked my sailing group on Sunday. Of those that had tried it, there was only me and one other person still using it. Everyone else had gone back because of performance issues, or the way it looks.

When they fix stuff like this, people will start coming back to it.

[Cube Republic]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

People are turning PBR off all over the place, either by using viewers that let you turn it off or by changing their settings even on Firestorm.

You'll be surprised how much the techs' minds are concentrated wonderfully when they see massive refusal to go along with this torture.

The fanboyz are not going to win this one, it goes too deep.

 

Hey sorry you misunderstood me, by 'they' I mean makers of viewers such as firestorm and linden lab. 

 

To reiterate there isn't going to be a system where content creators are expected to create for a 2 tier system, these are not my words, they're straight from the horses mouth.

 'Torture','fanboyz','going deep'... The fangirlz need to chill out.

Edited Wednesday at 06:38 AM by Cube Republic

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Aethelwine said:

I asked my sailing group on Sunday. Of those that had tried it, there was only me and one other person still using it. Everyone else had gone back because of performance issues, or the way it looks.

When they fix stuff like this, people will start coming back to it.

 

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

People are turning PBR off all over the place, either by using viewers that let you turn it off or by changing their settings even on Firestorm.

None of this should be a surprise to anyone. We've been talking about these problems here for months and months. It's been brought up in the FS Test group chat too, although it has tended to get drowned out there. It annoys me no end that some people are shrugging this off or plugging their ears to the noise.

I don't think there's any way of going back from this, but LL needs to move fast to create some fixes or they really are going to be facing pitchforks and torches.

They need to fix water.

They need to create or at the very least facilitate the distribution of new EEPs.

They need to work more on performance issues (although I gather there's a new LL viewer version which may be a bit faster?)

And probably they should be thinking about a replacement for invisiprims

And MOST OF ALL, they need to produce a readable, layperson-friendly explanation of and guide to all of this, and find a way to get it out to as many people as possible as quickly as possible.

JUST as some of us were saying over a half year ago.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

3 hours ago, Cube Republic said:

To reiterate there isn't going to be a system where content creators are expected to create for a 2 tier system

Content creators who don't, are likely to lose a lot of business.

Make some sh*te I can't use, don't expect me to pay for a copy, it's a simple enough idea.

 

As an example, there's a fetish gear store in SL, they had their own region., they sold gear exluesively for the grids most popular female mesh body.

Then last year they started introducing stuff for the 2nd most popular body.

Their customers bought a lot of stuff.

THIIS year, they stopped supporting ANY popular mesh body, and released their own body, a rather fugly thing.

All their new content is for this own brand body ONLY.

 

They closed their region and are now on a 1/4 region sized parcel elsewhere. Losing business hand over fist..

See how it goes?

[AmeliaJ08]

There is no performance fix that makes this usable on an integrated GPU.

If ALM ran badly/choppy (and it does on every integrated GPU I've ever tested) PBR won't run well either.

 

[AmeliaJ08]

9 hours ago, Cube Republic said:

The 1060 is almost a decade old, it will have a hard time with SL

It actually copes surprisingly well with sensible settings, no need to be missing out on too much though.

 

[panterapolnocy]

12 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

A key issue I see here is that the FS devs don't see this all as "a problem that needs fixing."

Believe me, Prok - as a grid traveler (planes, cars, boats) I personally don't like the occasionally radioactive, sometimes a bit plastic looking water myself as well. However, there is that: https://secondlife.com/corporate/third-party-viewers

Quote

You must not provide any feature that alters the shared experience of the virtual world in any way not provided by or accessible to users of the latest released Linden Lab viewer.

Which means that the 3D scene needs to look more or less (more) like in the Lab's official viewer, which must be treated as a reference. Perhaps new PBR-compatible EEPs would help here, or further renderer tweaks which may come from the Lab in the future. We've had @Runitai Linden visiting Firestorm Support group recently, and users were politely reminded to submit PBR renderer bug reports and suggestions on the Lab's Canny:

Quote

"[11:47:43] davep (runitai.linden): yup... performance and render issues should be directed to https://feedback.secondlife.com"

Edited Wednesday at 10:35 AM by panterapolnocy

[NaomiLocket]

Honestly some people here will take look on the bright side to an eat the plastic decorative for display purpose only props as cute food to eat. As previously posted elsewhere.

While some are having a blast and that is expected in the wide range of hardware configurations, and good on them. What's been absurd lately is the blame the users rhetoric when things don't work as they should. And frankly being like Hillary Clinton will never be a compliment.

On the point of the Lab's third party viewer policy, had they followed it like their own instead of covering their butt with it, things might have been smoother. As in the incoming latest release must satisfy the previous. Had they had the foresight to ensure SL21B exhibit would never have the white road syndrome they'd have less criticism.

And if people remembered past issues of driver crashes and black screens when every app and their mum wanted to use the GPU for their UI today's masterpiece might have had the clarity and understanding of some design decisions. While it is not always ideal for SL to not use more of the GPU, the same can be said about it using more of the GPU along side a host of other things being typically used by platform users that are not power-users. Microsoft's provision of a scheduler at the OS level is young and hardly could be considered mature. It will have its limit and can only do so much for single display adapter rigs - which is most if not almost everyone not on a modern laptop.

And even then you'd have to assume without being an ass that a user is going to be power-user enough to set preferences on what app uses what adapter if they have a second.

PBR will be great and it will be fun eventually.
But it would be even better and had been a whole lot more fun if they didn't cut their nose off their face in the process.

It also would have been better if the usual frat party just shut their mouth generally.

[steeljane42]

1 hour ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Content creators who don't, are likely to lose a lot of business.

Make some sh*te I can't use, don't expect me to pay for a copy, it's a simple enough idea.

 

As an example, there's a fetish gear store in SL, they had their own region., they sold gear exluesively for the grids most popular female mesh body.

Then last year they started introducing stuff for the 2nd most popular body.

Their customers bought a lot of stuff.

THIIS year, they stopped supporting ANY popular mesh body, and released their own body, a rather fugly thing.

All their new content is for this own brand body ONLY.

 

They closed their region and are now on a 1/4 region sized parcel elsewhere. Losing business hand over fist..

See how it goes?

Funny that I saw this here, too. Most of people I ever interact with in SL are into that sort of stuff, and since that store made this move I heard nothing, but frustrated and angry words about that. None of them bought that body or even considered it. And that's rather "dedicated" to their kinks people and the rather niche (compared to furniture/decor/etc stuff at least) items, so don't exactly have thousands of alternative items to choose from.

But we shall see how many of big creators still include fallback textures for those who didn't/won't switch just yet. One of my favorite creators does include those, including newest few releases. But one of the well known clothing creators said that her last release will likely be the last one with fallback textures included. One of the largest and most known furniture/decor creators is now working on the PBR releases too, but he hasn't mentioned anything about fallback mode or anything else for now.

[NaomiLocket]

13 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

But we shall see how many of big creators still include fallback textures for those who didn't/won't switch just yet.

Yeah I just recently saw a really awesome bit of decoration kit drop recently making an active point of having with fallback provided. Giving a glimpse of what it'll look like at its best as well as the hope to make good use of it right now as expected. And good on them.

[Cube Republic]

8 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Content creators who don't, are likely to lose a lot of business.

is that so? I've sold several thousand units

Make some sh*te I can't use, don't expect me to pay for a copy, it's a simple enough idea.

I searched my records, you've never bought from me

 

As an example, there's a fetish gear store in SL, they had their own region., they sold gear exluesively for the grids most popular female mesh body.

Then last year they started introducing stuff for the 2nd most popular body.

Their customers bought a lot of stuff.

THIIS year, they stopped supporting ANY popular mesh body, and released their own body, a rather fugly thing.

All their new content is for this own brand body ONLY.

 

They closed their region and are now on a 1/4 region sized parcel elsewhere. Losing business hand over fist..

See how it goes?

OK well good for you.

 

I'm not going to make two sets of textures. I'm going to make all my stuff PBR from now on out and not support legacy rendering system.

Besides the bit where land doesn't have PBR fallback textures - that needs considering as to the direction SL is taking. Also I suspect gLTF scenes don't have an extention for packaging blinn phong textures and they're coming next. 

I'm not sure if you analogy is useful in this case.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 hour ago, Cube Republic said:

Besides the bit where land doesn't have PBR fallback textures - that needs considering as to the direction SL is taking.

Smart creators should be looking into making ALM BP textured skybox gardens about now, because a lot of people will want those.

 

1 hour ago, Cube Republic said:

Also I suspect gLTF scenes don't have an extention for packaging blinn phong textures and they're coming next. 

Smart creators will avoid GitElf scenes like the plague, for home and garden work. Nobody wants to buy a house/apartment with some failed artiste wannabe's choice of ugly furniture perma-welded into the no mod house interior, because Giitelf scenes allows clueless egowh*res to impose their taste in wall colours and furnishings on anyone MAD enough to buy a home from them.

 

1 hour ago, Cube Republic said:

I'm not sure if you analogy is useful in this case.

try applying it to, oh for the sake of example, somebody using PBR to make plants, that don't look much if any better than non PBR alm-bp plants.

I certainly wouldn't buy PBR plants for MY garden, they won't be visible to many of the visitors, and don't look better enough to justify that handicap, and the hiked prices people are likely to charge for putting "Ruined with PBR" on the advert.

 

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

11 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Smart creators should be looking into making ALM BP textured skybox gardens about now, because a lot of people will want those.

For merchants wanting to maximize their potential customer base this is actually some pretty solid advice!

[Luna Bliss]

15 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

PBR to make plants, that don't look much if any better than non PBR alm-bp plants.

I'm not surprised that you can't see the difference.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

I'm not surprised that you can't see the difference.

Nor should you be, because unlike many of the Futureness cultists, I actually know what PBR is supposed to look lie, and actually know that its STRENGTH isn't Matt finish plants.

There's almost NO advantage to using PBR for plants unless we had actual PBR lighting, which we don't, because LL didn't bother putting that in yet.

 

 

[Luna Bliss]

4 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

8 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I'm not surprised that you can't see the difference.

Nor should you be, because unlike many of the Futureness cultists, I actually know what PBR is supposed to look lie, and actually know that its STRENGTH isn't Matt finish plants.

There's almost NO advantage to using PBR for plants unless we had actual PBR lighting, which we don't, because LL didn't bother putting that in yet.

Why do you think that PBR should be in its final state right now?  This is a process. I already see differences, and I only imagine it getting better.