Linden Lab your PBR is giving me a headache

[Nagachief Darkstone]

31 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

You wanna tell me that a 2018 500 dollar laptop outperforms a 2016 High End Desktop?

In some situations, yes.

Based on some quick searches, in most cases there's a 15% difference between a i7-6700K (a popular CPU for high end machines in 2015-2016) and a i5-9600K (Q4 2018). In favor of the 9600K. Raw performance metrics says a 6850K would match the 9600K, but due to being based on Haswell-E, it was in reality much slower than the 6700K in Second Life. I know from experience.

GTX 1080 was the best you could get in 2016. 20-series was released in 2018. Laptops were likely still using 10-series mobile chips still as the RTX 2050 mobile GPU hadn't come out yet.

For CPU-heavy features, such as shadows (surprise! having to recalculate geometry is pretty expensive CPU-wise) and mirrors, the Laptop would probably outperform the Desktop in this situation.

For GPU-heavy stuff like rendering blended alpha and raw geometry, the Desktop would probably run better.

Edited June 27 by Nagachief Darkstone

[Extrude Ragu]

I'm looking forward to not having to do special hacks just to get good semi-decent content into SL

Being able to upload whole heirachies means I'm gonna be able to make and share a lot more cool things a lot faster, instead of having to painstakingly split up and re-join objects in world to work around SL's limitations.

Lindens say they want to make gltf nodes scriptable and i reckon we can use this to give residents after-market control of the 3d shape of their items which will be very cool

Finally undoing the mistake of letting people turn off normal maps means that I won't have to use excess polygons and lag up the scene for the sake of people who turn that off to see the object properly.

In general, people always react negatively to change. I saw it when I switched from making clothing for one body to another, I saw it when I started making upgrades to my sim, etc.

Leadership decisions are hard because nobody likes change and tends to only see the negative. They forget that when you're building an extension on your house, there is a brief period where there's a big ugly hole in your wall and dust everywhere and lots of construction noise and the occasional builders ass-crack.

People who are not leaders demand the world stays perfectly still because they naively beleive that if we all stop moving, nothing will go wrong. Of course, the world doesn't quite work like that.

Theres a lot of cool technology in the works in the background, some of which will really make SL into something special. I wish more people would think to the future and how cool it could be instead of clinging onto the past. There's a lot of nice stuff waiting for you.

 

[NaomiLocket]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

If they can't run PBR on their machine and want to buy PBR content, what other choice do they have?  He sells non-PBR items.  There are millions of other non-PBR items to buy.  Telling a creator they HAVE to do something (sort of like telling them they HAVE to make things modify) is basically the same thing.  Both have a choice.

It's not a matter of have, it's a matter of prudence and point of difference. It's fine for people to point out in the face of "we shouldn't have to do x" that the industry standard is to do a tier range of content. That's what graphics settings and shader levels have always been in every part of the industry.

The creators that have it worse and deserve sympathy are the ones making content around bodies and body mods. Because they are the only ones that have any real argument about workload multipliers.

[BriannaLovey]

17 minutes ago, NaomiLocket said:

It's not a matter of have, it's a matter of prudence and point of difference. It's fine for people to point out in the face of "we shouldn't have to do x" that the industry standard is to do a tier range of content. That's what graphics settings and shader levels have always been in every part of the industry.

The creators that have it worse and deserve sympathy are the ones making content around bodies and body mods. Because they are the only ones that have any real argument about workload multipliers.

If they made their items with modify permissions then they would have less of a workload, to be fair.

[NaomiLocket]

39 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

If they made their items with modify permissions then they would have less of a workload, to be fair.

I enjoy modify permissions being granted more than not. But I have bought a lot of non-mod things also. There are both valid and not really valid arguments on both sides of mod, no-mod. Of course as a consumer I expect no-mod things to supply the means to do all the functions of mod (as possible) as necessary through a supplied interface that yes increases their work unless they have contracted it out. But that is their choice.

For clothing no-mod bothers me most when hitting the attachment limit alongside more for function attachments. For land it bothers me most for limiting the ability to tailor the build to its bespoke needs.

To each their own. But never should the market put up with *whinging and my way or the highway without good reason to. Some brands have already thought about and decided to consciously include legacy fallback during this period. It protects their market share. Of course some might have one so niche and understand theirs so well to judge their impact to be negligible. Maybe that's where they were coming from. But then I don't consciously notice their things all over the place when traveling either. There's only handful of samey standouts I tend to notice. It'll be curious what those ones decide to do in the meantime.

---

edit to add:

But if you are suggesting that making clothing items mod reduces workload in terms of rigging and materials for bespoke body objects that would be incorrect. It would not reduce their workload at all.

Edited June 27 by NaomiLocket
*typo

[BriannaLovey]

47 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I'm looking forward to not having to do special hacks just to get good semi-decent content into SL

Being able to upload whole heirachies means I'm gonna be able to make and share a lot more cool things a lot faster, instead of having to painstakingly split up and re-join objects in world to work around SL's limitations.

Lindens say they want to make gltf nodes scriptable and i reckon we can use this to give residents after-market control of the 3d shape of their items which will be very cool

Finally undoing the mistake of letting people turn off normal maps means that I won't have to use excess polygons and lag up the scene for the sake of people who turn that off to see the object properly.

In general, people always react negatively to change. I saw it when I switched from making clothing for one body to another, I saw it when I started making upgrades to my sim, etc.

Leadership decisions are hard because nobody likes change and tends to only see the negative. They forget that when you're building an extension on your house, there is a brief period where there's a big ugly hole in your wall and dust everywhere and lots of construction noise and the occasional builders ass-crack.

People who are not leaders demand the world stays perfectly still because they naively beleive that if we all stop moving, nothing will go wrong. Of course, the world doesn't quite work like that.

Theres a lot of cool technology in the works in the background, some of which will really make SL into something special. I wish more people would think to the future and how cool it could be instead of clinging onto the past. There's a lot of nice stuff waiting for you.

 

Demanding that people who have no obligation to appease you do so is never a rational thing to do, yes. And for the most part, all these other things are pretty good to add. It is just the performance requirement that I am actively pushing back against.

[Paul Hexem]

3 hours ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I'd put forward that a platform that can't attract new residents is a financial ticking time bomb. People don't live forever, you know?

It's shocking how incredibly selfish many of these people on the forums are. They really want the platform to never update and move forward, have it die with them.

[NaomiLocket]

6 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

It's shocking how incredibly selfish many of these people on the forums are. They really want the platform to never update and move forward, have it die with them.

Nah most of them just want to come along on the ride and can't really blame them. The selfish were trying to off-them and repeatedly tell them they are the minority by a minority shouting down more and more them showing up to post problems presenting themselves progressively less a minority.

[Dorientje Woller]

TBH, just looked at the prices of the Ryzen 5000 Cpu's, as possible upgrade: 129 Euro's for the 5600X and 165 Euro's for the 5700X.

[Cube Republic]

 

9 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

TBH, just looked at the prices of the Ryzen 5000 Cpu's, as possible upgrade: 129 Euro's for the 5600X and 165 Euro's for the 5700X.

The new ones are out in July, so this current batch of AM5s might come down further.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

18 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

It's shocking how incredibly selfish many of these people on the forums are. They really want the platform to never update and move forward, have it die with them.

How DARE they not throw themselves on their swords for the Greater Good?

"It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known."
[dies to the sound of applause from the seats in the gallery]

I think Naomi has put it well: they don't want the platform to stagnate. They want to be able to move forward with it, and this current update is making that seem, for many of those, an impossibility.

I think a good measure of the value of any "progress" is determining how many people it carries with it. Leaving people behind, or worse still, expecting them to exit quietly and without a struggle because their protests are an inconvenience, is not really something we should want to do.

Of course there are some people who simply want SL to remain frozen in place. But the majority of those protesting here don't want that; they just want to be among those who, like yourself, benefit. Is that really so very "selfish"? Could it not be argued that your willingness to throw them overboard in your haste to proceed forward is also a kind of "selfishness."

This is why it's important that we try to find ways bring as many along with us as we can, by offering solutions and finding workarounds. Otherwise, it's not the platform that's moving forward, but only those who can benefit from it.

I'm one of those myself, but I'd prefer my happiness not be bought by the misery and disappointment of others.

[BriannaLovey]

16 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

How DARE they not throw themselves on their swords for the Greater Good?

"It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known."
[dies to the sound of applause from the seats in the gallery]

I think Naomi has put it well: they don't want the platform to stagnate. They want to be able to move forward with it, and this current update is making that seem, for many of those, an impossibility.

I think a good measure of the value of any "progress" is determining how many people it carries with it. Leaving people behind, or worse still, expecting them to exit quietly and without a struggle because their protests are an inconvenience, is not really something we should want to do.

Of course there are some people who simply want SL to remain frozen in place. But the majority of those protesting here don't want that; they just want to be among those who, like yourself, benefit. Is that really so very "selfish"? Could it not be argued that your willingness to throw them overboard in your haste to proceed forward is also a kind of "selfishness."

This is why it's important that we try to find ways bring as many along with us as we can, by offering solutions and finding workarounds. Otherwise, it's not the platform that's moving forward, but only those who can benefit from it.

I'm one of those myself, but I'd prefer my happiness not be bought by the misery and disappointment of others.

I find that responding to that guy at all is just not worth my time. It is better to focus on helping people who will be affected by this than arguing with those who don't care about them, but that is just my opinion.

Edited June 27 by BriannaLovey

[Dorientje Woller]

22 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

How DARE they not throw themselves on their swords for the Greater Good?

"It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known."
[dies to the sound of applause from the seats in the gallery]

I think Naomi has put it well: they don't want the platform to stagnate. They want to be able to move forward with it, and this current update is making that seem, for many of those, an impossibility.

I think a good measure of the value of any "progress" is determining how many people it carries with it. Leaving people behind, or worse still, expecting them to exit quietly and without a struggle because their protests are an inconvenience, is not really something we should want to do.

Of course there are some people who simply want SL to remain frozen in place. But the majority of those protesting here don't want that; they just want to be among those who, like yourself, benefit. Is that really so very "selfish"? Could it not be argued that your willingness to throw them overboard in your haste to proceed forward is also a kind of "selfishness."

This is why it's important that we try to find ways bring as many along with us as we can, by offering solutions and finding workarounds. Otherwise, it's not the platform that's moving forward, but only those who can benefit from it.

I'm one of those myself, but I'd prefer my happiness not be bought by the misery and disappointment of others.

But isn't that the issue with all computer related stuff ... it evolves in such pace that when you don't upgrade, update and stick with the old but still functioning hard- & software that there will be a point in time that you will be left out? Look at Windows 10, next year, all support for it will end, unless you pay for it. And sorry to say, that's a fact and that's reality.

Edited June 27 by Dorientje Woller

[BriannaLovey]

3 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

But isn't that the issue with all computer related stuff ... it evolves in such pace that when you don't upgrade, update and stick with the old but still functioning hard- & software that there will be a point in time that you will be left out? Look at Windows 10, next year, all support for it will end, unless you pay for it. And sorry to say, that's a fact and that's reality.

Pay for an operating system? lmao

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

But isn't that the issue with all computer related stuff ... it evolves in such pace that when you don't upgrade, update and stick with the old but still functioning hard- & software that there will be a point in time that you will be left out? Look at Windows 10, next year, all support for it will end, unless you pay for it. And sorry to say, that's a fact and that's reality.

Yes, it is.

So are death and taxes, but I'm not going to shrug off the laments of those who suffer from those either.

There HAVE been some useful solutions offered. Let's focus on those, rather than complaining about complaints?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

I find that responding to that guy at all is just not worth my time. It is better to focus on helping people who will be affected by this than arguing with those who don't care about them, but that is just my opinion.

I understand the frustration, but of course it's also misplaced. LL is not going to roll this back. He is on the "winning side," and we all know it. Criticizing those who have "lost" because they are "unreasonably" unhappy to be on the losing side is not a great look, I'll admit.

Paul will argue, with some justice, that he's offered to help people assemble their own low-cost computers. Which is great, but doesn't really address the issues being raised by hundreds -- actually, undoubtedly thousands -- of SL users.

One of the problems too, of course, is that many of those who do come here to discuss this are really just looking for a place to vent, or publicly announce that they are flouncing. There ARE some who aren't interested in solutions.

As for me, I've been making notes of some of the things that can help that have been brought up here. Pantera has produced some really good suggestions for tinkering with FS, for instance.

 

[Dorientje Woller]

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yes, it is.

So are death and taxes, but I'm not going to shrug off the laments of those who suffer from those either.

There HAVE been some useful solutions offered. Let's focus on those, rather than complaining about complaints?

Just found out that you can rent PC's with NZXT for 50 USD a month: https://nzxt.com/flex/player-one, read the faq as well.

[NaomiLocket]

12 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

But isn't that the issue with all computer related stuff ... it evolves in such pace that when you don't upgrade, update and stick with the old but still functioning hard- & software that there will be a point in time that you will be left out? Look at Windows 10, next year, all support for it will end, unless you pay for it. And sorry to say, that's a fact and that's reality.

That's why there has been a lot of pushback against their AI feature options and implementation as well as waves of "time to move to Linux" videos. Though with Microsoft's entrenchment in some of Linux it's not purely immune to their practices. But it does still offer a delay being subjected to some of it. Also since then the options and range of say people will have in Window's 11's AI use has since increased post-noise. They too did a lot of boneheaded minimum viable product decisions that would harvest things that should never be harvested.

[Dorientje Woller]

2 minutes ago, NaomiLocket said:

That's why there has been a lot of pushback against their AI feature options and implementation as well as waves of "time to move to Linux" videos. Though with Microsoft's entrenchment in some of Linux it's not purely immune to their practices. But it does still offer a delay being subjected to some of it. Also since then the options and range of say people will have in Window's 11's AI use has since increased post-noise. They too did a lot of boneheaded minimum viable product decisions that would harvest things that should never be harvested.

I can't swap to linux ... due to my profession and most of the software on my PC are bought and provided by the organisation where I work for and are sadly created for Windows only.

[NaomiLocket]

You have my sincere sympathies with the lack of choice.

Generally speaking Linux still appears to be a long way off from a proper transition for many anyway. It's made some strides in places but now and then some of the pop culture figures will make a usual video about the ecosystems lingering drawbacks and barriers.

[BriannaLovey]

13 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

I can't swap to linux ... due to my profession and most of the software on my PC are bought and provided by the organisation where I work for and are sadly created for Windows only.

Dual-booting is also an option; keep your linux and windows installs on the same computer, and switch between the two as needed 😄

[Dorientje Woller]

2 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

Dual-booting is also an option; keep your linux and windows installs on the same computer, and switch between the two as needed 😄

And why should I swap between Windows & Linux or have a dual boot system. It works fine without issues.

[BriannaLovey]

25 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I understand the frustration, but of course it's also misplaced. LL is not going to roll this back. He is on the "winning side," and we all know it. Criticizing those who have "lost" because they are "unreasonably" unhappy to be on the losing side is not a great look, I'll admit.

Paul will argue, with some justice, that he's offered to help people assemble their own low-cost computers. Which is great, but doesn't really address the issues being raised by hundreds -- actually, undoubtedly thousands -- of SL users.

One of the problems too, of course, is that many of those who do come here to discuss this are really just looking for a place to vent, or publicly announce that they are flouncing. There ARE some who aren't interested in solutions.

As for me, I've been making notes of some of the things that can help that have been brought up here. Pantera has produced some really good suggestions for tinkering with FS, for instance.

 

If TPVs were not permitted in SL, I would completely agree with you. But that is simply not the case at all. I don't believe LL will walk this back either, but I do believe that creating/modifying viewers of our own will greatly help the situation. So will spreading the word about existing viewers that can help, like [henri please don't stab me for this] viewer

[BriannaLovey]

2 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

And why should I swap between Windows & Linux or have a dual boot system. It works fine without issues.

If you don't want to deal with Windows Recall spyware when you do personal stuff on your computer, then it will be very beneficial.

[Dorientje Woller]

2 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

If you don't want to deal with Windows Recall spyware when you do personal stuff on your computer, then it will be very beneficial.

Lols, that side as personal & work related stuff is only accessable in a virtual space which on its turn is only accessable if I put my digital ID card in a card reader.