Linden Lab your PBR is giving me a headache

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 minute ago, Count Burks said:

Why should a new person who joins Second Life or any person installing a standard viewer get confronted with this plastic feast? Graphics need to look good as a standard. I always use Midday settings myself and it should look normal. The default graphics should look normal to anyone.

 

Judging from your rental headquarters, you don't. You apparently use a preset called "Midday1" which is not the default Midday setting.

[Clem Marques]

11 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

13 minutes ago, Clem Marques said:

Anyone else desperately clinging to the pre-PBR versions of SL viewers? 

Absolutely not. I love PBR.

 

Instead of blasting LL about PBR and telling them they did a bad job, try and actually learn how PBR works and what you can do with it. It's fairly powerful. Granted, old things may need to get an update, but so what? 

I have a neighbor in SL that has full bright non-modifiable trees that have been colored in light green. So, it has textures of trees AND is light green. they were bought this way because they are no mod. The avatar that owns them is 14 years old, the avatar that made them is 17 years old. Do you get where i'm going with this?

I'm not blasting LL about PBR. Haven't even attempted to test it yet, hesitant to do so. I have no opinion on the topic.

I asked that question because I was curious if anyone else felt that way, that's all. Damn.

Edited June 24 by Clem Marques

[CaithLynnSayes]

 

If you say my avatar looks plastic, imma smack you.  The only thing plastic here is my profile pic, and it's already angry about it.

 

 

 

 

These pictures are taken with a PBR Beta version of firestorm a few weeks ago. I personally am having a blast with it.

[CaithLynnSayes]

1 minute ago, Clem Marques said:

I'm not blasting LL about PBR. Haven't even attempted to test it yet, hesitant to do so. I have no opinion on the topic.

I asked that question because I was curious if anyone else felt that way, that's all. Damn.

Heh, sorry, i didn't mean to say you're blasting LL. I meant OP.  

[Evangeline Arcadia]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This.

And yes, this is true as well:

The problem being that many people have no idea what EEP even is, yet alone how to adjust it. (And the documentation for it is AWFUL or nonexistent.)

I agree - I think the lack of good tutorials from LL about how to adjust and fix perceived issues with PBR in the update is seriously lacking, and LL are really dropping the ball here. There will be a lot of users who don't visit the forums, and when they update their viewer will wonder what the heck is going on and what to do. Why not have a pop up or something on login, or a big notice and links on the Viewer log in page that directs users to video tutorials or help pages... something.. suggestions and help on troubleshooting. Not everyone is a creator and needs to know how to make PBR stuff or how wonderful it is, as per the LL blog posts - many users just want to log in and enjoy their world.

Firestorm has this page, which I think anyone that's having issues should read (even if you are using the LL viewer)

https://www.firestormviewer.org/pbr-where-we-are-where-we-are-going-and-what-you-can-do-to-be-ready/

It won't necessarily solve your issues, but it goes a long way to explain the realities of what to expect and why.

[Rowan Amore]

39 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

What's wrong with orange skin? I like orange men...  

[Paul Hexem]

25 minutes ago, Count Burks said:

Why should a new person who joins Second Life or any person installing a standard viewer get confronted with this plastic feast? Graphics need to look good as a standard. I always use Midday settings myself and it should look normal. The default graphics should look normal to anyone. 

I will repeat this from my original post Nothing should look any different from before UNLESS content creators and users make specific usage of GLTF textures in their creations.

It should not be:

Welcome to Second Life, our graphics look plastic and nasty .....

But if you go to your Preferences panel and then search under the graphics tab,

and then you start to tweak exposure and then turn this off, and that, and switch this and 500 other settings ....

and then you slap on this special Windlight setting, which you can find under the World menu under the Environment tab in the special lighting panel.

Then and only then you will be able to somewhat have a less irritating experience with our product.

 

When I buy a car I never adjust anything ever, then I get angry at the manufacturer when the mirrors don't show me what I want to see.

[Dorientje Woller]

3 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

the least, really thé least .. what they had to do is deliver a few acceptable replacements for settings  (environment) with it.
The way they dropped this is absurd.
When i rezz i look orange and weird colored parts, when i change that it looks acceptable, not good yet. When i log in on non pbr i look absurd again but now in opposite direction. Lightning is weird, indoors i need sunglasses, outdoor  a guide dog because all is so dark.
Pushing a large part of your citizens into a noob stage without any serious explaination is pretty dumb. Excited praise posts new new new wonderful, great and super ... good lord, i swear we (SL)  are on the counter again for a sale... i'm sure about that.

Problem is that none of the viewers have been launched with correct PBR settings, the old Windlights & EEP are. Got a free PBR set from Violent Seduction to make it look good.

[CaithLynnSayes]

4 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

When I buy a car I never adjust anything ever, then I get angry at the manufacturer when the mirrors don't show me what I want to see.

I think OP is forgetting something very fundamental and what makes SL one of a kind. It's been it's biggest selling point. (up till some time ago, imo) YOU, the user make the content. LL just provides the tools. I have said it in the other thread and i stand by it. PBR is amazing, i love playing with it and I've seen some really cool stuff being made with it.

Find a region called "Rumpus Room 3" inworld and have a stroll around. See what it can do, and please stop b!tching about older hardware not being able to handle it. I sorta have a personal beef with that. SL is evolving and i think that's a wonderful thing. You (OP) seem to want to stay in the past.

 

TL;RD LL provides the tools, we, the users need to make something with it and be creative. Have at it!

[Scylla Rhiadra]

18 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

LL provides the tools

Will LL also be providing the new GPUs?

[Dorientje Woller]

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Will LL also be providing the new GPUs?

Does RockStar provides you with new GPU with each update and addition of Grand Theft Auto?

[Saraya Starr]

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Does RockStar provides you with new GPU with each update and addition of Grand Theft Auto?

Don't know, never played!

No, of course not. Nor am I expecting LL to 1) hold back on updates because people can't afford new hardware, or 2) provide new GPUs.

What I DO expect is something a little less tone-deaf and insensitive to people who can't afford new computers (or GPUs) than the above "you want to stay in the past" post.

No, people don't want to "stay in the past." We'd ALL love shiny new computers with the latest NVidia "WowXXX.60 GPU" installed. The brutal (and it can be literally brutal) reality is that there are lots of people surviving pay cheque to pay cheque out there.

There's a real "let them eat cake" element to a lot of these kinds of responses.

[CaithLynnSayes]

9 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Will LL also be providing the new GPUs?

Ok, picture this scenario. Let's say you own a older car and your local governance has made a fairly steep bridge and your older car is struggling to get up and over it. Is your local governance suppose to buy you a new car?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

Ok, picture this scenario. Let's say you own a older car and your local governance has made a fairly steep bridge and your older car is struggling to get up and over it. Is your local governance suppose to buy you a new car?

No, of course not.

But I'd expect better from my local governance than to have them mindlessly sneer that it's obviously my unwillingness to move into the future, rather than my straightened financial state, that's the issue.

Edited June 24 by Scylla Rhiadra
Clarity

[Katherine Heartsong]

1 hour ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

 

If you say my avatar looks plastic, imma smack you.  The only thing plastic here is my profile pic, and it's already angry about it.

 

 

 

 

These pictures are taken with a PBR Beta version of firestorm a few weeks ago. I personally am having a blast with it.

Same. Like this for me too. Nothing appeared "plastic" to me at all. Brighter yes, but plastic and shiny? Not at all.

Again, everyone seems to be having a different experience, some good, some bad.

Also, if you play any video games at all (SL not a game, whatever) you know you'll have to make adjustments to the graphics settings to find your optimal config. That's a given.

[JUSTUS Palianta]

At the risk of not caring if im unpopular, i think OP is right, the viewer should not need tweeking for new residents.  The viewer should be set to go.  New people don't need more learning curve.  Ive been here for 16 years and im still not exactly sure how to tweak my viewer for PBR and i read the forum every day how can we expect new people to do it.

[AmeliaJ08]

34 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Problem is that none of the viewers have been launched with correct PBR settings, the old Windlights & EEP are. Got a free PBR set from Violent Seduction to make it look good.

Yeah I would say not nuking the existing Windlights/EEP's and including some that work better was a mistake but people would probably freak out about that. Maybe stick them in a folder marked Old or something though...

The default environment settings have been tweaked though (the Sunrise/Midday/Sunset/Midnight ones) and look fine. I have to admit I'm pretty much always in Sunset but certain places tweaked their EEP a long time ago now ever since the official viewer went PBR so usually Shared Environment isn't a problem and I'm happy to use it so long as it looks fine.

 

 

[CaithLynnSayes]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The brutal (and it can be literally brutal) reality is that there are lots of people surviving pay cheque to pay cheque out there.

Choose wisely come November...  

(If you're American)

[Thecla]

I find it hilarious that the OP is complaining about orange skin.

Edited June 24 by Thecla

[AmeliaJ08]

8 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Don't know, never played!

No, of course not. Nor am I expecting LL to 1) hold back on updates because people can't afford new hardware, or 2) provide new GPUs.

What I DO expect is something a little less tone-deaf and insensitive to people who can't afford new computers (or GPUs) than the above "you want to stay in the past" post.

No, people don't want to "stay in the past." We'd ALL love shiny new computers with the latest NVidia "WowXXX.60 GPU" installed. The brutal (and it can be literally brutal) reality is that there are lots of people surviving pay cheque to pay cheque out there.

There's a real "let them eat cake" element to a lot of these kinds of responses.

Are Microsoft being meanies because Windows 10 won't run on a Pentium 3?

There has to be a cutoff point. LL have decided there is no way of accommodating the users who do not have the necessary hardware. That's harsh but... equally the necessary hardware is stuff from like 2016? maybe even earlier. It's reasonable to target your product in this way, it's like how new games are nearly always very aware that targeting only the latest and greatest hardware isn't realistic and have to consider people running older stuff.

LL have done this, they've provided the tools to tone it down if necessary and while their communication isn't great they've not done anything outlandish especially given this is a 3D virtual world, of course it needs a GPU.

Edited June 24 by AmeliaJ08

[Theresa Tennyson]

13 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

No, people don't want to "stay in the past."

 

Yes, some of them do.

Some of them are upset that a setting somebody told them to use fourteen years ago acts differently now, and they think other people should change things so they don't have to make any changes to that fourteen-year-old setting.

Not a trace of hyperbole intended.

Edited June 24 by Theresa Tennyson

[Scylla Rhiadra]

9 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Are Microsoft being meanies because Windows 10 won't run on a Pentium 3?

There has to be a cutoff point. LL have decided there is no way of accommodating the users who do not have the necessary hardware. That's harsh but... equally the necessary hardware is stuff from like 2016? maybe even earlier. It's reasonable to target your product in this way, it's like how new games are nearly always very aware that targeting only the latest and greatest hardware isn't realistic and have to consider people running older stuff.

LL have done this, they've provided the tools to tone it down if necessary and while their communication isn't great they've not done anything outlandish especially given this is a 3D virtual world, of course it needs a GPU.

Yes, Amelia, and if you've read nearly any of my posts on this subject over the past, god what? 8 months?, you'll know that I understand that. As recently as today I conceded that LL had to move forward on this.

My objection is to the "Well, I'm alright Jack!" tone of so many of these posts.

"Why are you trying to hold back SL's future?"

"Well, it works for me! What are you doing wrong?"

"You just need to buy a new PC!"

"Have you tried [paragraph-long stream of incomprehensible technobabble]? A child could do it!"

 

Can we please stop blaming people who are having problems for the fact that they are having problems?

Edited June 24 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Yes, some of them do.

 

[CaithLynnSayes]

4 minutes ago, JUSTUS Palianta said:

At the risk of not caring if im unpopular, i think OP is right, the viewer should not need tweeking for new residents.  The viewer should be set to go.  New people don't need more learning curve.  Ive been here for 16 years and im still not exactly sure how to tweak my viewer for PBR and i read the forum every day how can we expect new people to do it.

LL has always had a steep learning curve, that's nothing new. - I can't speak of the SL Viewer because i barely use it, but Firestorm is smart enough to detect what graphics settings should be ok-ish to start with and give you a reasonable experience. The unwillingness to tweak your settings is a you-problem, not an LL-problem.

I'll grant you that LL's Wiki pages may sometimes be out of date and no longer relevant but like you said it yourself, the forums are a good starting point to just ask. But you should not be afraid to go into those settings and try to faff around with it, see what works for you. And yes, eventually you may have to upgrade to something slightly more powerful.

Speaking of graphics cards. It doesn't have to be a new one, you know. Just google around foor good refurbished ones or something. they usually are a fraction of the price of a new one. Steer very clear of cards that have mined bitcoin. Those are thrashed.  

 

I'm sorry but the argument that has been made several times surrounding this topic of GPU's and their price is one that is very weak. I just gave an example of how you can upgrade cheaply. All that's required of you is to use a little common sense when buying. That includes seeking advice of knowledgeable people in that field. Just whining that a card is expensive is... Well, it's the SL forums, isn't it, i'll behave.