Linden Lab your PBR is giving me a headache

[Candide LeMay]

31 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Yeah, but I gotta be frank: for me, making ALM mandatory is the best part of PBR. Some of us worked really hard to add ALM-requiring content for others to see, and it's been really frustrating knowing that they can't see the emissive alpha we put on those candles and the masked alpha we used to fix the sorting bug on those trees and the metallic bronze specularity we applied over the normalmap on those signs, etc., etc.

We can't expect every visitor to value all the detailed content we fuss over obsessively, but thinking about that is kinda how obsession works.

It's not just that the "I don't use ALM because it's slow" crowd doesn't see yours or mine materials - I can live with that, it's their screen. But the same people when shopping will choose the more detailed looking item to buy. And what do creators/merchants do when they know that details sell and a large part of the population doesn't have ALM on? They pile up geometry.

That's how we ended up with 200K triangles boots, instead of 20K triangles boots + normal maps etc. And now SL is slow for everyone.

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Irina Forwzy said:

While the failure in and of itself for Sears/ToysRUs was through the Private Equity/Investment Fraud scheme that sometimes happen when the land itself is sold off to a "company" that usually has ties to the Investment company for a lease/rental price which then augments and shifts what could have already been an amortized cost in old mortgages to a sunk one now.. the point still stands.

The reason why they got away with doing these behaviors was because the companies didn't have enough sale to yield over the debt and the financial failures of the management behind them. Leaving them exposed to the risks that they were.  JcPenney, Macy's etc are also in that risk category.

All companies can rack up debt, and if they don't have the wiggle room of increasing revenue, any mistake or bad executive decision can leave them on the border of bankruptcy.  LL needs to start to realize that back when money was flowing without much Fed Rate hike on it, mistakes were not deadly. Now they can be.

Which means they need to be focused on the revenue  and sim creations in the next three months and six. If they see a slow influx of steady revenue, they need to talk to the developers to not black access to the grid with older viewers. They also will need to potentially slow down PBR or introduce more PCs into their Beta environments (and I mean with better communication than just Forum and Sl University) and try to iron out as many kinks.

So long as LL is "privately held" (even if by an "investment group"), they should be safe - if they don't sell to someone who will make a mess of things. 

* blows sunshine and rainbows up LL's backside, to keep it aloft! *

[Yorkie Bardeen]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think that I read recently it's "3 major releases" (not bugfixes / minor releases). Sorry, I consume the Forum even if I don't use Firestorm! (Like an old man who reads the NYT from cover-to-cover.)

There may be some hope then, but I think webrtc and controllers will count as major updates, but I admit I don't know how they determine that.

[NaomiLocket]

Rarely they have opted to not count an update (as in main/stable release) as part of the 3-version rule I think, if they consider it to be involved with a serious enough issue requiring a rapid fix. But it'll of course be up to the powers that be what counts. I only remember one instance very recently, but I'll be honest that I don't follow their releases with any deep attention. More like when I feel I should, need, or desire to for a given reason.

ETA: From casual observation they would typically bundle a bunch of things around and with a major feature. I would expect webrtc to be considered a major feature change.

Edited Thursday at 01:54 PM by NaomiLocket

[Qie Niangao]

43 minutes ago, NaomiLocket said:

This is incorrect. Alpha masking works independently of ALM setting.

Ah yes, now that you mention it I think that's right. What I was probably thinking of, which always seemed weird to me, is that alpha masking triggers "prim equivalence" land impact accounting, so if one makes the mistake of setting a surface to alpha-masking on a prim, or foliage sculpty, etc, it will suddenly get the "mesh" land impact score (which of course can be disastrous if unexpected and the object hasn't had physics type changed from Prim).

Thanks for that correction.

[ETA: I forgot to mention, in response to another point of the post: Yeah, something about this PBR renderer does sometimes subtly change the conditions under which sorting of blended alpha gets confused. Sometimes it may be better, but several times I've suddenly discovered an ancient build that never had alpha-sorting problems before, the surfaces plenty distant enough I'd surmised, that now flickers like mad. Kind of a fluke within a fluke.]

Edited Thursday at 02:09 PM by Qie Niangao

[Irina Forwzy]

34 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

So long as LL is "privately held" (even if by an "investment group"), they should be safe - if they don't sell to someone who will make a mess of things. 

* blows sunshine and rainbows up LL's backside, to keep it aloft! *

Well I mean, thankfully they don't deal with physical locations like Sears did.  So someone can swoop in and vulture their way to millions simultaneously as they basically drink all the life essence from a company.   But it means that they have to be careful.

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Irina Forwzy said:

Well I mean, thankfully they don't deal with physical locations like Sears did.  So someone can swoop in and vulture their way to millions simultaneously as they basically drink all the life essence from a company.   But it means that they have to be careful.

I think my point was, nobody can "just go buy" a "privately held" company.  The current owners would have to agree to sell it.

[NaomiLocket]

10 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

[ETA: I forgot to mention, in response to another point of the post: Yeah, something about this PBR renderer does sometimes subtly change the conditions under which sorting of blended alpha gets confused. Sometimes it may be better, but several times I've suddenly discovered an ancient build that never had alpha-sorting problems before, the surfaces plenty distant enough I'd surmised, that now flickers like mad. Kind of a fluke within a fluke.]

Bother. It's too much for us to ask for consistency isn't it! 🤣

[Theresa Tennyson]

12 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

[ETA: I forgot to mention, in response to another point of the post: Yeah, something about this PBR renderer does sometimes subtly change the conditions under which sorting of blended alpha gets confused. Sometimes it may be better, but several times I've suddenly discovered an ancient build that never had alpha-sorting problems before, the surfaces plenty distant enough I'd surmised, that now flickers like mad. Kind of a fluke within a fluke.]

I noticed that too. It seems like the issue is that the viewer is now using the location of the linkset to determine where the items are in space instead of the location of the individual pieces.

[Codex Alpha]

3 hours ago, Irina Forwzy said:

While true:

Macy's, JcPenney, and Sears would like to have a word with you. Big Box stores such as these were a highlight of a time.  Now they are having financial issues and we all know how Sears disappeared.  There has been a change in people's behavior especially in the last 20-30 years.  In fact, it's impacting even cruising industries (where the main point which was Casinos is now having to change because the younger generation doesn't like casinos).

Some things do follow age. You may not like a particular game for instance when you are 20 because your parent's played it or it's as old as your parents, at thirty you may no longer care as much for the stigma.  At seventy, you may have heard about it from a child and you want to be hip. Anomalies do exist.  But, the golden age of LL has been over and attracting the Fortnite users (or what's the newest game?) may not be as profitable as they think.

 

No one, not one, is going to drop Fortnite to come to SL (Because of PBR). SL is niche and is considered a weird platform for deviant people into sex stuff. PBR isn't going to bring them over, because gameplay/social experience > graphics. Why leave the excitement of game-filled platforms like Roblox and Fortnite and Counterstrike you name it, to come play house and walk around and look at museums, with a complicated interface, super lag, and now higher system specs.

Edited Thursday at 04:02 PM by Codex Alpha

[Irina Forwzy]

12 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

No one, not one, is going to drop Fortnite to come to SL (Because of PBR). SL is niche and is considered a weird platform for deviant people into sex stuff. PBR isn't going to bring them over, because gameplay/social experience > graphics. Why leave the excitement of game-filled platforms like Roblox and Fortnite and Counterstrike you name it, to come play house and walk around and look at museums, with a complicated interface, super lag, and now higher system specs.

It's why I made my comment. There's both the age factor and the image the game has.  The name itself causes some to view it negatively without any knowledge of what is going on. "Oh so it means you have no first life."

To top it off,  you have the sexual deviance stuff and the few cases of infidelity that have propped up on documentaries outside of the game. 

It's for a very niche market. And it's hard to get others to join.

[Paul Hexem]

18 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

No one, not one, is going to drop Fortnite to come to SL (Because of PBR). SL is niche and is considered a weird platform for deviant people into sex stuff. PBR isn't going to bring them over, because gameplay/social experience > graphics. Why leave the excitement of game-filled platforms like Roblox and Fortnite and Counterstrike you name it, to come play house and walk around and look at museums, with a complicated interface, super lag, and now higher system specs.

Drop their existing games for SL, not likely. Add SL to their library now that it looks better? Now there's a discussion.

Personally I was a gamer long before I joined SL. Back then all games had bad graphics so SL's didn't stand out like they do today, and it was sandbox gaming back before "sandbox game" became a thing.

LL could absolutely pick up people that like sandbox games if they get their act together.

[Arielle Popstar]

5 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

LL could absolutely pick up people that like sandbox games if they get their act together.

Since when did you become such an optimist? 

[Paul Hexem]

5 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Since when did you become such an optimist? 

"if they get their act together" is a pretty big ask, to be fair.

[Codex Alpha]

29 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

"if they get their act together" is a pretty big ask, to be fair.

Even if they did, it will be at their epic snail's pace, which means the point is moot.

Like I say a lot around here... "It's okay to have... but is it.... necessary?"

Edited Thursday at 05:05 PM by Codex Alpha

[Paul Hexem]

1 minute ago, Codex Alpha said:

Even if they did, it will be at their epic snail's pace, which means the point is moot.

Nonsense! They just added PBR and that only took 20 years. VR support next, baby. Happy New Year's 2094!

[Irina Forwzy]

2 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Nonsense! They just added PBR and that only took 20 years. VR support next, baby. Happy New Year's 2094!

You mean 2094 or 2194 as their completion date for VR? After four erroneous attempts, mind you.

Edited Thursday at 05:11 PM by Irina Forwzy

[Paul Hexem]

3 minutes ago, Irina Forwzy said:

You mean 2094 or 2194 as their completion date for VR? After four erroneous attempts, mind you.

I'll see you in 2594.

[BriannaLovey]

7 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Can you STOP pushing Linux, 98% plus of SecondLifers don't and WON'T use Linux.

Linux is for nerds who enjoy spending more time with their PC's cover off, screwdriver between teeth, with a user manual in one hand, and a soldering iron in the other, than ACTUALLY using the PC to have, you know, FUN.

Linux Cultist Easy Install Instructions

"Installing on Linux is easy, you simply re-thrutch the overflange de-balancer with the command line switch -asshatnerdspeak ( unless you use Venusian Linux when it's -asshatnerdspeek , or Jupiterian Linux when it's -asshatnerdspoke ), then initialise the .blob file, and make sure to unlink the dependancy globs blah blah blah"

 

Grown-Up Operating System Install Instructions

"find the application installer .exe file you downloaded, double click on it."

 

This is why 98% plus of SecondLifers don't and wont use Linux, so enough propaganda about how "hella kewl" it makes you for using it.

 

lol your hyperbole is so funny. Your knowledge on the subject is a bit outdated, though, by at least 5 years if not more.

[BriannaLovey]

8 hours ago, Dorientje Woller said:

@BriannaLovey Easy reponse from you, install linux and over are your problems. Forgetting that most, not all users aren't that tech savvy, don't want to risk of losing their data and that not all linux distributions are that easy to use/install. Will you sitting next to these users, holding their hands helping them out when everything goes sour? I bet you won't and will sneak away like a thief in the night, not willing to take your responsibility for the damage you have caused.

If anyone does want help, feel free to send me a notecard inworld.

[Arielle Popstar]

12 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Nonsense! They just added PBR and that only took 20 years. VR support next, baby. Happy New Year's 2094!

And how many things are still on the todo list because they have spent the past 10 years working in the different facets of the environment instead of spreading the coding love to different areas that needed it?

[Irina Forwzy]

9 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

I'll see you in 2594.

Lol. I'll be a mummy then. Clutching my pearls!

[Clem Marques]

1 hour ago, Codex Alpha said:

Why leave the excitement of game-filled platforms like Roblox and Fortnite

Because some people grow/age out of those eventually. A portion of them could end up in SL.

In the case of ROBLOX: It's filled to the brim with children and young teenagers. They're the target demographic. There are hardly any adults at all in there. So sure, the "game-filled platforms" might have a level of excitement that slower-paced SL lacks. But if an adult wants any level of social interaction with others online, ROBLOX and Fortnite are not good platforms for that.

I was an early adopter of ROBLOX, a member since it first launched, in 2006. I played it a lot in my late teens, and still occasionally visit that platform to see how it's going/evolving. I could not bear to play it nowadays even though my account still exists there, due to the sheer lack of other adults in that platform. Its unbearable, feels like a very annoying daycare. When I got older and found SL, I instantly ditched other platforms and never looked back. My children now use my old ROBLOX account and feel right at home there.

I have no personal experience with Fortnite so I can't comment on that. But that's my 2 cents about ROBLOX.

That being said, it's possible for people to abandon ROBLOX, Fortnite, and other games and switch to SL. But PBR is NOT what will bring them here. It's the shift in interests and/or those players getting older that makes them look for games of a different genre. So I agree with your point here:

1 hour ago, Codex Alpha said:

No one, not one, is going to drop Fortnite to come to SL (Because of PBR)

Edited Thursday at 05:34 PM by Clem Marques

[Zalificent Corvinus]

6 hours ago, Codex Alpha said:

small group that were a rotten core at HiFi and Sansar, undermining their success with their utter hate,

Sansar didn't HAVE any success to undermine, it was dead in the water from day 1.

It didn't fail because there was some sinister cabal of "rotten people" who, against all reason, insisted  in publicly disagreeing with the fact free garbage you spout.

It failed because it was a badly made platform that didn't offer anything anyone wanted, and did it in an elitist way that needed stupid over-priced hardware.

 

6 hours ago, Codex Alpha said:

One or two may even be here now, I recognize their speech style and utter vitriol, because they spoke the same way on the other platforms

Outstanding...

<Sarcasm Mode> There is a sinister cabal of people who disagree with you EVERYWHERE you go. I wonder how that works. </Sarcasm Mode>

 

 

[Alwin Alcott]

2 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

 "rotten people"

must have been a lot of power for 7 regular visitors